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Do you walk around pretending to be a ? or are you actually a ?
(edited as i didnt want the thread derailed by my response to our forum idiot)
Do you walk around pretending to be a * or are you actually a *?
**** lives matter!
(edited as i didnt want the thread derailed by my response to our forum idiot)
I notice that in your rush to abuse you failed to answer the questions I posed over whether the police were institutionally sexist, or whether stopping cars late at night indicated a form of ‘profiling’
Maybe that’s because the answers to those questions are somewhat inconvenient?
Please excuse the formatting of my previous post, I'm not very tech savvy which makes it hard to read.
Ninfan, I think you're misunderstanding the problem. Black people are disproportionately and repeatedly stopped and searched when they haven't commented a crime, and the police turn a blind eye when white people have committed a crime. It's through this bias that our prison system is disproportionately populated by black people as they're more likely to be caught if they do. In my anecdote the person I was with doesn't touch weed, yet he was the one who was searched. The police were awfully apologetic towards me for the inconvenience, no charges were made despite the misdemeanor in my pocket.
If you listen to Akala he explains it way better than I can in a short post.
Inkster, those are good questions which lead on to how black people are more likely to suffer from mental illness. Again, they're less likely to receive the support which they are in need of due to systemic racism and myths.
I understand how challenging it is to recognise personal biases and prejudices as it forces us to question our own education, morals, values and how we apply them in our daily lives through actions and language. It starts with recognising there's a problem, then goes on to realising that you are a part of it whether that is consciously or not, as we are judged on our whitness by others. Learning that you unwittingly contribute to the oppression of others is a bitter pill, but one that needs addressing so that we can achieve a fair society. Whilst this may not be the fault of the individual, it is each individuals responsibility to address it.
Ninfan, I think you’re misunderstanding the problem. Black people are disproportionately and repeatedly stopped and searched when they haven’t commented a crime,
because they are black, or because they (disproportionately and for a liturgy of complex Socio-economic reasons) often live in areas with levels of high crime, particularly involving drug and knife crime (of which young black males, and even more so mixed-race young black males, are also disproportionately likely to be victims of) and resultingly also areas with a high police presence, seeking to prevent the exact types of crime that are prevalent in those areas.
In effect, there’s somewhat fo a vicious cycle going on there, agree?
and the police turn a blind eye when white people have committed a crime.
I think this is difficult to accurately quantify, and an area where anecdote (like your own) is particularly difficult to quantify against real comparative data. I Have no doubt that police frequently let minor crimes ‘slide‘ to people of all races, whether that’s speeding or possession,but I wouldn’t feel comfortable drawing conclusions about whether that’s applied disproportionately to white people.
It’s through this bias that our prison system is disproportionately populated by black people as they’re more likely to be caught if they do.
As I say, I don’t think it’s a valid excuse to say ‘it’s only unfair because I got caught’. There does appear to be some disputed evidence over whether sentencing is entirely like-for like, however I think it’s interesting that an extensive research project into bias in jury trials showed that in fact white property were slightly more likely to be found guilty.
I understand how challenging it is to recognise personal biases and prejudices as it forces us to question our own education, morals, values and how we apply them in our daily lives through actions and language.
I would, politely, suggest that this works both ways, if people assume that the police are biased against us (for whatever reason) and therefore Feel morally justified in acting like idiots when legally stopped/searched (gobbing off, refusing to comply with searches, resisting arrest) then the inevitable result is only going to be more, and more serous, offences committed, with a greater likelihood of charges And increased punishments -
“I would have Probably let him off with a warning, but his attitude And behaviour meant I had to arrest him” - the vicious cycle all over again
It starts with recognising there’s a problem, then goes on to realising that you are a part of it whether that is consciously or not, as we are judged on our whitness by others. Learning that you unwittingly contribute to the oppression of others is a bitter pill, but one that needs addressing so that we can achieve a fair society. Whilst this may not be the fault of the individual, it is each individuals responsibility to address it.
A find it difficult to bear the extrapolation that, say, a farmer in rural Yorkshire getting stopped by the police on suspicion of running red diesel in his car, is somehow indirectly contributing to the oppression of a young black man in London who is stopped and searched for carrying a knife. Both have to bear personal responsibility for their own actions on a day to day basis. Is all too easy for either to claim to be ‘oppressed’ in order to excuse personal choices they have made.
Ninfan - black youth are stopped more often than white despite a lower % of arrests after stops. tells you all you need to know
Ninfan, you're bang on about the socio-economic reasons being a huge contributor to recorded crime. Black people are more likely to live in poverty, again this is due to systemic racism.
Our education system is biased towards white people. People who have foreign sounding names are marked lower than those with British names, yet when the candidates submit work as a number they receive higher grades. Black kids are labeled as more disruptive and less engaged in learning than their white peers due to the prejudices of teaching staff, therefore they have lower achievement and negative outcomes.
You're also bang on when you say that the problem is cyclical, it's a self fulfilling proficy where people live down to expectations. Why bother trying to achieve when you're just going to be dismissed by the system anyway.
I've included my personal anecdotes so that I can relay the issues in a relatable manner. TBH I don't have the time at the moment to provide you with all the relevant statistics and evidence, I have however signposted you to Akala who has done extensive research on racism in the police and judicial system. I'd also highly recommend the Anti-Racist Educator, they have a wealth of resources aimed at untangling prejudices. My own views have come from personal experience of racism and institutional racism within the Scottish education system and government, which have prompted me to research the subject and identify clear indicators of oppression. It's difficult to address all of the points you have made with the restrictions of a comment. If you wish to read an open letter I wrote on the topic it's available on Twitter under the user name Aweeshoe, if you wish to have my opinions validated then have a look at my followers.
I'm an accidental activist, it's not an issue which I have courted willingly but out of necessity as a parent. I am racist as I'm a product of our society (British black people are also racist as they internalise white values) but it's something I am conscious of and work to eradicate in myself and others for the benefit of us all.
Ninfan, you’re bang on about the socio-economic reasons being a huge contributor to recorded crime. Black people are more likely to live in poverty, again this is due to systemic racism.
Our education system is biased towards white people. People who have foreign sounding names are marked lower than those with British names, yet when the candidates submit work as a number they receive higher grades. Black kids are labeled as more disruptive and less engaged in learning than their white peers due to the prejudices of teaching staff, therefore they have lower achievement and negative outcomes.
Again, a much wider variety of issues involved there that I think it’s more difficult than saying ‘systemic racism’ - eg. It’s pretty widely accepted that Poverty and crime and educational success is also tied in with significant correlations to broken homes, single parent families and a lack of male role models (eg lone parent with dependent children makes up about 18.9% of all black households but under 7% of white households) so there are much wider social & cultural issues at play here.
My personal belief is that tackling poverty across the board is probably key to solving all these things, rather than getting bogged down in which organisations are, and are not, systemically racist. I also happen to think that people like Gary Mcfarlane’s sixth form version of Marxism isn’t the best way to do that.
Saying ‘if I was a different colour I would never have been caught’ doesn’t mean that your arrest and prosecution was unfair though, does it? Because in the end you were still breaking the law.
That wasn't what was said or argued (other than by you).
“they’re just more likely to caught and charged than whites because of the higher rates of stop and search.“
:roll eyes:
Like I say, Perfectly innocent drivers are more likely to get stopped and breathalysed if they are driving around after 11 at night. That doesn’t suggest that the police are treating them unfairly. People who live in high Knife crime areas and fit the demographic of those most likely to be involved (As either perpetrator or victim) in knife crime are similarly more likely to get stopped and searched, That doesn’t suggest that the police are treating them unfairly either.
As black people in London are 47 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white, that rather suggests they do.
Ah, Zulu’s back. 😂
When do we get the “my racism hell” story?
Faerie - ninfan is frustrating to debate with prefering scoring debating points to gaining understanding - just a heads up
As black people in London are 47 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white
Let’s just check that...
Nope!
ninfan is frustrating to debate with
prefering scoring debating pointsbeing technically correct in every point he makes
It’s funny because it’s true!
Holy cow some of you have got a lot more patience for idiots than me!
Nope!
Yep.
oops they did it again!
https://twitter.com/ChristieLinford/status/1279464866860974082
this time it was driving a car with tinted windows suspiciously
the first one was sent to me by my mate whos an ex-copper & in his words "Im so glad Im a civvy now so I no longer have deal with these racist -bleeps-"
also under Javids reforms it went to 40% not 47% using 60a to stop & search
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/
Tj, thanks.
Ninfan, here's the MacPherson report which details institutional racism within the Met police.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-stephen-lawrence-inquiry
Ninfan, here’s the MacPherson report which details institutional racism within the Met police.
You're really relying on a 21 year old report? How many officers from then are even serving any more?
You might as well point to on an episode of the Sweeney as proof. 🙄
this time it was driving a car with tinted windows suspiciously
Hmmm..... bit more to the story maybe?
The Met said the vehicle had blacked out windows and was “driving suspiciously”, including being on the wrong side of the road. It said when officers indicated for it to stop, the car sped off. Officers caught up with the vehicle when it stopped on Lanhill Road but the driver initially refused to get out of the car.
The Met said
😂
Original Claim:
As black people in London are 47 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white, that rather suggests they do.
Revised Claim:
also under Javids reforms it went to 40% not 47% using 60a to stop & search
From the article posted as 'proof'
....Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area.
So, not all stop and search, just S60, and in the whole of England and Wales, not London.
Its funny how these eccentric claims can get pulled apart when you bother to read the detail, isn't it? Now, lets read on:
Data shows in March 2018, black people in England and Wales, excluding London, were 26 times more likely to be stopped, while in the capital they were 12 times more so.
Whoops - so we've gone from 47, down to forty, now down to Twelve. Its almost comical pulling these things apart for you when you can't be bothered to actually check the facts yourselves.
Now, here's some other figures for you to ponder over:
Maybe there's a pretty good reason why they are disproportionately stopping and searching young black men?
Again, a much wider variety of issues involved there that I think it’s more difficult than saying ‘systemic racism’ – eg. It’s pretty widely accepted that Poverty and crime and educational success is also tied in with significant correlations to broken homes, single parent families and a lack of male role models (eg lone parent with dependent children makes up about 18.9% of all black households but under 7% of white households) so there are much wider social & cultural issues at play here.
You said it's not systemic racism, then you go on to describe systemic racism.
It's easy to look at stats like the one about lone parents being more common in black families and blame black people; but these things are associated with poverty, and more black people are poor precisely because of systemic racism not because black people are inferior.
You said it’s not systemic racism
Crivens, cant you read? No, I actually said:
"its not as simple as saying systemic racism... ...there are much wider social & cultural issues at play here"
not because black people are inferior.
I don't see anyone here suggesting for one second that they are.
A casual reading of this page suggests that ninfan is playing an absolute blinder; while people are intent on playing the man, he's already about 4 goals up.
I think this represents the whole BLM in the UK situation in microcosm; if you want to change and challenge things you need to be clear and clinical and correct in the way you use figures and statistics. If it's about challenging racism in institutions and in wider society, it's about carefully and fairly changing the views of a huge majority of people, winning hearts and minds if you will.
Throwing statues into rivers will have the opposite effect in the long run.
You've almost got ninfan admitting systemic racism in the police exists
There's hope yet !
Our education system is biased towards white people. People who have foreign sounding names are marked lower than those with British names, yet when the candidates submit work as a number they receive higher grades.
When I did exam marking I didnt see any names.
Poor white boys are also the biggest under achievers afaik.
I'm sure overt amd unconcious racism has and impact too though.
Kimbers, polite Question for you
Are the police institutionally sexist for stopping and searching many times more males than females ?
Would you regard it as evidence of a form of discriminatory 'profiling'?
Or would you accept it as justified?
Ah, whataboutery again. Who'd have thought it?
Are the police institutionally sexist for stopping and searching many times more males than females ?
Straw man.
There's a difference between a straw man argument and a comparison, didn't you know Darcy?
Ninfan, you may not be suggesting that black people are inferior, but you are inferring that they're more likely to be criminal and that although they suffer socioeconomic issues disproportionately, this is their own fault. A black person has to work twice as hard to be half as good.
Immanuel Kant on "Negroes" :- " a people of beastly living, without God,
law, or religion, or commonwealth" James Antony Froude said that slavery gave them an opportunity to rise in creation, do you think prison does the same?
Crivens, cant you read? No, I actually said:
“its not as simple as saying systemic racism… …there are much wider social & cultural issues at play here”
I can read pretty well, but maybe you need to work on your writing. Your sentence apparently does not represent your point. And here's another tip - maybe instead of blurting out an insult, why not try something like 'sorry if I wasn't clear - I am not denying institutional racism' then I would have gone 'ah ok I misunderstood that' and we'd be having a nice conversation instead of a shit-throwing competition. Just a suggestion.
you may not be suggesting that black people are inferior, but you are inferring that they’re more likely to be criminal
I'm not inferring anything, the data shows us that, at least with certain sorts of very serious crime, they are more likely to be involved than other members of society - both as victim and perpetrator.
and that although they suffer socioeconomic issues disproportionately, this is their own fault.
Neither the data, nor I, allocate blame - it simply shows that young black men are disproportionately responsible for, and victims of, certain crimes - and as far as I'm concerned, there is a bloody good, and perfectly justifiable, reason to target enforcement against, and prevention of, those very serious crimes on the areas, and people, that are most affected (both as perpetrators and victims) regardless fo colour or demographic.
If that means that young black men are indirectly therefore more likely to get stopped, then so be it - its a proportionate and justifiable side effect of the seriousness with which those crimes need to be treated, rather than a form of victimisation on the basis of colour, age, gender or anything else.
In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that if the police *weren't* playing an active role in trying to prevent and arrest those involved in these very serious crimes, of whom young black men are disproportionately victims, then many of the self same politicians and 'community spokespeople' would be criticising the police for institutional racism for failing to be proactive enough in protecting young black men from being murdered. (Some food for thought there perhaps.)
People have to bear personal responsibility for certain things in their lives, certain decisions, I'd say that carrying and using a knife or gun as an illegal weapon fits into those criteria, regardless of their social environment or background.
I can read pretty well, but maybe you need to work on your writing. Your sentence apparently does not represent your point.
Perhaps you need to work on your own, because instead of writing "your comment seems to infer that..." you instead managed to write:
"You said it’s not systemic racism"
which I simply didn't.
Those in Glass houses should be careful where they point their own petards, etc.
Ahhh, I get you now Ninfan; you're part of the problem and blinded by whiteness. Are you aware that the philosopher I quoted earlier provided a foundation for eugenics? Eugenics was the pseudo science that the Nazi's used to justify the Holocaust.
Because systemic racism hasn't been quantified in an easy to digest graph you refuse to accept it. Systemic and institutional racism are insidious and unless you are the victim of it, it is very difficult to see, yet it affects every aspect of life. It's not an area which has been studied in detail, I'd say that was because of racism and we don't want to recognise the damage we're doing. Perhaps you don't want see it because you would then have to recognise your own privilege, and that will further expose your own fragility. You dismissed the MacPherson report as being out of date, what do you think has progressed in the 20yrs that have elapsed?
If you would like a more up to date example then read my open letter regarding institutional racism in education, in it I have outlined how our society is racist from the playground to the government, with evidence using research, legislation and policy. I'm not an academic but it was reviewed by several (80) professors as I wanted to ensure that my information was correct before I went public.
P.S You're also muddling quotes from myself and Molgrips
Because systemic racism hasn’t been quantified in an easy to digest graph you refuse to accept it.
Where?
I just dont accept that targeting stop and search powers against the areas & communities most involved in particular types of serious crime is 'racist'
No more than I would accept that stopping and searching more men than women (as already happens) is sexist, or that randomly stopping people driving their cars around late at night after the pubs shut is a form of 'victimisation' of innocent drivers who just happen to be out late or work late shifts.
or would you dispute either those comparisons?
Go on - you've thrown around a lot of questions - how about answering a couple of mine?
1) is stopping and searching many times more men than women a sign of institutional sexism?
(and if not, then how is stopping and searching more black men than white men a sign of institutional racism?)
2) If the police failed to try and do everything they could to prevent knife and gun crime against young black men (who are known to be disproportionately represented amongst the victims of knife crime and murder) would that also be, to you, a sign of institutional racism?
Two pretty simple questions, lets see how you get on with them - because if you don't answer them, then I'll take it to be because you think those answers undermine your own position.
Systemic and institutional racism are insidious and unless you are the victim of it, it is very difficult to see,
I can point you to several people who are utterly convinced that electricity pylons and mobile phone masts make them ill, they swear that its true, but the doctors can't find anything wrong with them and nobody else can see it.
Go figure.
Thanks for all that ninfan, with all those charts and statistics I think we've done the whole driving whilst black thing.
How about cycling whilst black. When I was over at a friend's place a while back I noticed he had a new bike on his balcony set up on rollers. Nice one I say, (I'd known him for 20 years and never seen him with a bike.) A Kona I say, good choice, we'll have to pop out for a ride sometime.
'Nah,' says he, 'you know what it's like round here If someone looking like me goes around on a mountain bike.' I did know what he meant, his response didn't surprise me at all, I was even subconscious that couched in the offer to join me for a ride was the notion that riding with me would be 'safer' because I am white.
My friend is 40, completely law abiding but has short dreadlocks and looks younger than his age. He grew up round here in the inner city, I'm a middle class kid from the countryside who mved here. How absurd is it that I can suggest to a friend he might be safer riding around his own neighbourhood with me than on his own?
Things that I might consider before I pop out on my bike:
Is it raining?
Is it cold outside?
Is it too windy?
Things I don't consider before I pop out on my bike:
The colour of my skin.
For those that still don't get it.
When I was over at a friend’s place a while back
“The plural of anecdote is not data” - Dr Ben Goldacre; Bad science.
Your anecdote may be interesting, but it isn’t data - nothing actually happened in it, you’ve very accurately described your friends assumption, a ‘feeling’ that something would happen, not what actually happened to him.
“You know what it’s like round here If someone looking like me goes around on a mountain bike.”
Might as well be
“I’m not going riding my bike in the woods, I could get eaten by a bear/ cougar/ wolves/ robbed/ kidnapped by aliens”
Are you really that ignorant / blind ninfan after 30 pages?
Meanwhile 2 GB athletes hauled out of their car in front their kid in the back seat all filmed by Linford Christie because the police “thought they could smell weed in the police vehicle which was behind them”. Guess what colour they were😱? Oh and neither of them asked to take a road side drug test either...
I’m not inferring anything...
You really are.
because the police “thought they could smell weed in the police vehicle which was behind them”.
Liar
Reporting of Met police statement:
“the vehicle had blacked out windows and was “driving suspiciously”, including being on the wrong side of the road. It said when officers indicated for it to stop, the car sped off. Officers caught up with the vehicle when it stopped on Lanhill Road but the driver initially refused to get out of the car”.
Yeah, yeah, we know, “dem Babylon would say dat, innit bruv” - but let’s just assume that the police have the body cam video to back up their claims if it goes to court shall we?
Video put out by the complainants:
https://twitter.com/christielinford/status/1279464555547168768?s=21
1) Not ‘filmed by Linford Christie’ as you claimed
2) Video ‘magically’ begins just at the point where he gets out, rather than the while he is refusing to get out
3) video then ‘magically’ ends just as the police officer begins to explain why (note the words “the reason being....” just before the video stops.
Come on, if you want to demonstrate the existence of racism, come up with something real rather than these bullshit videos that are edited to remove all the context and preamble.
1) is stopping and searching many times more men than women a sign of institutional sexism?
(and if not, then how is stopping and searching more black men than white men a sign of institutional racism?)
Firstly it rather depends on why they are being stopped and searched. Your assertion of equivalence does not make them the same thing.