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I actually really like what some states have done, creating sort of Gardens Of Questionable Statues- don’t destroy them, just get them together so they can be seen and appreciated but also really unmissably understood for what they are.
Any examples for this, I’m intrigued.
Last I heard, Antifa had had a large donation from Soros and had invested in building a secure communications app from the ground up. So, they were probably a hit busy today.
I hope the /s was missed off the end of that statement, otherwise it looks like you’re swallowing QAnon and Angry Tinkerbell’s right-wing conspiracist bullshit hook, line and sinker!
Despite what Angry Tinkerbell seems to believe, there is no such organisation as Antifa, never has been.
It’s just a contraction of anti-fascist, which anyone to the left of Nigel Farage and The Donald are likely to be.
You’re not outing yourself as a Farage/Trump/NF supporter, are you?
My mistake, I now realise pacifists make the best soldiers.
...and for the last 30 years working in hospital, I've worked alongside ex soldiers. All of whom have continued to serve their country in that NHS that you clapped for.
so again, get to ****.
I’m willing to bet in a Venn diagram of meatheadedness there’s a large overlap between yob and ex-soldier.
You can’t really be a useful soldier without having violent tendencies I imagine.
Bellend !
I once saw a lieutenant serving in Afghanistan say the that being a soldier had less to do with patriotism and more to do with challenging yourself as an individual, being the best you can. I thought nothing less of him for saying it.
After hearing that I came to think of soldiers as sportsperons, maybe they didn't make the cut at junior trials as they didn't have the technical skills but still had a competitiveness and determination to succeed that could redirect by joining the Army.
Soldiers do a job that they chose to do.
I’ll be more specific, point me to a law that actively discriminates.
Stop and search?
"...between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people..."
Equality under the law doesn't exist as an abstract concept; how the law is applied is a key part of equality.
I would like to think we're all equal under the law, but when I hear so many black people saying that's not true, my inclination is to try and understand why they are saying that, not tell them that the problem doesn't exist.
Is it plausible that black people mainly live in cities, and in disadvantaged areas that have a higher police presence?
It sure is. Did you ponder why that might be true, and whether that might be another symptom of the underlying problem?
You’re not outing yourself as a Farage/Trump/NF supporter, are you?
Yeah, got it in one.
Any examples for this, I’m intrigued.
One of the ex-Soviet Baltic states has created one , forgive me, I can't arsed to look it up, but I think it's called Lenin World, or maybe Stalin World (yes really, I'm not making it up)
Some of the ‘yobs’ protecting War memorials around the country are ex soldiers who don’t want these memorials to be damaged…
I know and have known plenty of ex-forces, many that I class as good friends. Can't think of a single one that would be classed as left wing, maybe one or two that could be classed as liberal but the vast majority would classed as right to hard right wing. It would not suprise me if a few joined in with the yobs and they'd certainly be vocally supporting them on social media.
It is the way that it was done that I am very much against.
I get that, and I understand the sentiment. Mob rule, all that shit. But, again, like the statues, you have to contextualise it.
Here was a local (and I emphasis the local bit) group who've tried for 40 years to variously have the thing moved, or additional plaques added, or damn well near anything to point out that Colston was (not to put too fine a point on it) A grade A Shit that they didn't want a statue of in their community. And they've been ignored....All that time, arranging protests, and petitions, and asking for stuff to get done, and they've had the equivalent of a shrug or a condescending sigh, or just silence from the people who should be listening to them...So they said "Never mind, we'll sort it ourselves"
Even the head of the local Police force recognised that sometimes, the right thing to do is for once take the side of the little man.
Grutas Park?
That's the one!!
Woah.
Id not registered what’s happening in Seattle
I know and have known plenty of ex-forces
But on a thread all about racism, the crude, lazy stereotyping of any group of people is perhaps something that shouldn't really be occurring, is it?
Unless it's OK when the stereotype is about presumably right wing people?
It's no surprise that the police and army tend to vote for the authoritarian right, around 50% for Le Pen in recent French elections:
But then about 34% of the general population did too in the second round of the presidential elections.
What that doesn't make them is slave trade apologists, or even automatically racist. Unfortunately in some cases they are which is where my contributions to this thread started. I'm hoping that the current debate will bring about change within the forces in that the political/social climate will give cops that are on the side of right and good the chance to take on the racists within their own ranks.
It sure is. Did you ponder why that might be true, and whether that might be another symptom of the underlying problem?
I'm not denying what you are trying to imply. Neither does what I posted.
Even the head of the local Police force recognised that sometimes, the right thing to do is for once take the side of the little man.
Worth highlighting that. In the midst of some awful examples recently, that seems like a really good piece of professional, intelligent policing. Understood the mood, avoided unnecessary confrontation and kept everyone safe. At the end of the day, you can always fish a statue out of the water.
Woah.
Id not registered what’s happening in Seattle
That’s what happens when you take Orwell’s Animal Farm off the curriculum. Destined to repeat the same mistakes.
Thanks for putting things in context. I also understand better why it was done, but at this point its really what degree of civil unrest are you comfortable with, in this we will probably disagree. In my opinion it also belittles the 40 years of effort of trying to taking it down the right way.
On the other hand, there is the danger of this event being taken out of context the other way, as in a free for all of taking down monuments/statues.
But on a thread all about racism, the crude, lazy stereotyping of any group of people is perhaps something that shouldn’t really be occurring, is it?
Unless it’s OK when the stereotype is about presumably right wing people?
What stereotyping? I said that in my experience the ex-forces I know tend to be right wing and some to the point where they would join some weird vigilante group to protect statues. This started with it being suggested that yobs shouldn't be called yobs if they are ex forces. That's nonsense.
Even the head of the local Police force recognised that sometimes, the right thing to do is for once take the side of the little man.
Worth highlighting that. In the midst of some awful examples recently, that seems like a really good piece of professional, intelligent policing. Understood the mood, avoided unnecessary confrontation and kept everyone safe. At the end of the day, you can always fish a statue out of the water.
Agreed - I was pretty impressed with the action, the response by the police and the council.
inkster - as for soldiers doing a job they chose to do let's not forget it's also a job that the vast majority wouldn't.
Soldiers be soldiers, as Edukator pointed out. Its no more surprising that soldiers and policemen lean to the right than teachers and social workers lean to the left. Whatever else changes I can't see that changing!
There has been an increasing sentimentalisation of those who serve in the last 40 years or so. I remember the Falklands war, where those who died were buried where they fell, just like British soldiers had done for hundreds of years, laid to rest in a piece of land far away that will be forever England. I am not being in the least bit cynical when I say this, The idea of dying as a soldier had always been a romantic idea, not a sentimental one.
I reserve my cynicism for what began during the Blair years, when the bodies started being returned from Afghanistan and Iraq to be paraded in a sentimental ritual. I'm not sure this is what the soldiers had signed up for, to be used as a political and emotional tool in this way.
Sorry to disrupt the recent spate of posts about statuary and soldiers but returning to thread title....
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/nypd-lieutenant-apologizes-for-kneeling-alongside-protesters-in-response-to-nypd-take-a-knee-chant
I don't see this helping either side; the individual involved is attempting to exonerate his behaviour.
So how did this get on to rights and wrongs of soldiers? 😆
EXTENT OF PREJUDICE IN BRITAIN REVEALED BY NEW RESEARCH
22 October 2018Prejudice against minority groups in Britain is "shockingly widespread" according to the first national study of prejudice for over 10 years.
The first national study of prejudice in over a decade, led by academics from Birkbeck and Kent reveals “shockingly widespread” experiences of prejudice affecting different groups in Britain.
A representative sample of nearly 3000 adults was surveyed, along with an additional survey of minority groups to ensure sufficient numbers to provide confidence in findings. The research, just published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), found that in the last year: 70% of Muslims surveyed experienced religion-based prejudice; 64% of people from a black ethnic background experienced race-based prejudice; 61% of people with a mental health condition experienced impairment-based prejudice; and 46% of lesbian, gay or bisexual people experienced sexual orientation-based prejudice.
People were also surveyed about their own attitudes towards other groups. Encouragingly, only 10% of people disagreed that there should be equality for all groups in Britain, but when pressed further, around a third of British adults felt that efforts to provide equal opportunities had gone ‘too far’ in the cases of immigrants (37%) and Muslims (33%).
And many expressed overtly negative feelings towards particular minority groups, with 44% doing so in the case of Gypsy, Romany and Traveller communities, 22% in the case of Muslims (22%); and 16% in the case of transgender people.
Around one-fifth of respondents said they would feel uncomfortable if either an immigrant or a Muslim person lived next door (19% and 18% respectively), and 14% said they would feel uncomfortable if a transgender person lived next door.
Attitudes towards mental health presented a complicated picture. Nearly two thirds (63%) considered that efforts to provide equal opportunities for those with mental health conditions had ‘not gone far enough’, but a quarter (25%) expressed discomfort with having a person with a mental health condition as their boss and 29% were uncomfortable with such a person join their family (e.g. as an in-law) (29%).
Professor Diane Houston from Birkbeck, and Professor Dominic Abhrams and Dr Hannah Swift from Kent, who led the study, commented: “Relationships between different groups in society are in a state of flux. This evidence provides the vital benchmark against which we can track and respond to changes in people’s experiences and attitudes as British society faces some increasingly strong headwinds both nationally and internationally.”
David Isaac, Chair of the EHRC, said: “It’s very clear that some people are still conflicted about equality and that prejudices still risk fostering discrimination in Britain. It’s disturbing that some people feel comfortable expressing negative views about others – especially members of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller, Muslim and transgender communities.
“Openly voicing negative attitudes can hinder constructive debate about the barriers people face and creates divisions and mistrust in society. Understanding people’s attitudes and the extent of prejudice in all its forms is key to unlocking the barriers that may hold many people back.
“This report sets out a workable model that we believe the government should build on to understand the current state of prejudice and discrimination in Britain. One person's gain does not mean that others lose out. If everyone gets a fair chance in life, we all thrive.”
By bringing together a set of measures of people’s experiences of prejudice and of people’s attitudes, the survey provides the most comprehensive picture available of prejudice and discrimination in Britain, and helps us to understand the impact of prejudice on people’s lives.
http://www.bbk.ac.uk/news/extent-of-prejudice-in-britain-revealed-by-new-research
Talking of Blair, I noitce both him and his equally abnoxious and hypocritical wife have been given air time to express their views. I haven't enjoyed such good rants at a televsion screen for a long time. The Middle East envoy who donned a Jewish cap when he met the Jews and a suit and tie to meet Arabs wearing Arab clothing.
Frank,
I'm not disagreeing with you. I just try to see the army in a non sentimental and non political way and have no desire to drag them into this debate.
I just reported what I witnessed, a group of people defending a war memorial from pigeons, some one else bought up the fact that there might have been ex army present.
And no dig, but the most pertinent thing for me is that the actual names on the war memorials didn't choose to be a soldier either but when it came to it they chose to do the right thing for humanity. War Memorials celebrate the heroism of the people, not the Army.
inkster - you wrote '....but the most pertinent thing for me is that the actual names on the war memorials didn’t choose to be a soldier either but when it came to it they chose to do the right thing for humanity. War Memorials celebrate the heroism of the people, not the Army'.
How very true.
they chose to do the right thing for humanity.
If they have the luxury of being on the winning side and history recording it that way.
Some of the statues now being toppled have now ended up on the wrong side of history having been on the right side of it when the statues were made.
I’ve not seen anyone attack a war memorial rather than a statue like the Churchill one, unless I missed it?
No, but you saw fit to say this:
You can’t really be a useful soldier without having violent tendencies I imagine
So you know where you can get to.
Edukator,
The way thing are developing, particularly with the statue issue has had a calming effect on me rather than winding me up. When I see the usual experts and commentators pontificating on the screen I just laugh. Events are moving faster than their brains can cope with and they are yet to realise they are not in control of anyrhing.
It is as if these same old faces have aged ten years in a fortnight and their ideas with them. Its been refreshing to see different faces and voices being being heard in the media, omes who can respond to a debate thats about right and wrong, not left and right.
The coronavirus has put the youth of the world on furlough and any idea that they are going to sit it out for a year and wait for things to get back to normal is preposterous. They're not going to stop pushing and will steer the debate where they want it to go.
Sure we've seen all this before, Paris 68 and all that. The difference this time is that:
"They have all......the time....in the world...."
Edukator again,
I think War Memorials memorialise the lives lost more than the cause they lost it for. They acknowledge that the majority of names depicted did not want to die and did not want to kill anybody.
Statues and memorials are different, one commemorates, the other celebrates.
No, but you saw fit to say this:
You can’t really be a useful soldier without having violent tendencies I imagine
So you know where you can get to.
Big man.
There's no excuse for casual stereotyping, especially on a thread rooted in racism. You could have said 'Ok, sorry', but you didn't.
Get to ****
Here in Pau we've got memorials for people who lost their lives in two world wars, Algeria, Indochine, recents conflicts, various memorials to resistants in approriate places, Spanish civil war victims and fighters, deported Jews. I don't need to say which fallen soldiers and militia aren't commemorated. Statues of WW1 generals, a king and even one put up in 2012 to commemorated the end of slavery - which has just had white paint and "white lives matter" written on it. 🙁
A German group wrote a song about a memorial "they built us a memorial and every complete idiot knows that sours love". The lyrics are quite prophetic, though no doubt unintentionally:
The very nature of the job is to be violent on command, is it not?
It’s regarded as a necessary job by society. I’m sure there’s some reason important to you why no one can state the obvious.
You seem intent on being an obtuse idiot. I shall leave you to your own pursuits.
You know where to get.
Bye
Do youse not think the discussion on whether soldiers are goodies or baddies deserves a thread of it's own?
seosamh - yes, different thread required; time for mods to step-in.
Yes, it needs Windsor Davies to step in and tell us all to 'SHUT UP'
Ho Ho! Maybe Don Estelle could sing it to us.
Greyfriars Bobby next. Didnae like cats.