MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Have the US sent 40 Navy Seals with cave diving expertise though? I know the Thai navy Seals have been mentioned but didn't know about the US.
Just to be clear, the clean air and water level thing are fully intertwined in a not very good way.
Unless it is utterly massive, the cave they are in must be connected with the outside world, otherwise they’d have succumbed to the rising co2 levels by now.
The bad news is that means that there isn’t a set volume of air to resist the rising flood water when it does start to rain again. So as the water rises, the air will leak out the top of the cave to maintain equilibrium. It just depends whether the Thais can go up as far as the water levels can
Very much IMHO of course
They'll be taking that into account, if they can't, then I should imagine the plan will revert to stretcher them out with masks.
absolutely terrifying for the kids, and sure to have a lasting impact on them
just hope to **** they can get them out safely
This sums it up for me. Can’t imagine what it must be like.
Have the US sent 40 Navy Seals with cave diving expertise though? I know the Thai navy Seals have been mentioned but didn’t know about the US.
Maybe not, but they will have the kinds of personalities needed to learn very quickly under heavy supervision from experienced cave divers and support the latter, who will probably form the tip of the spear.
I'd love to know how they are organising the operation.
If there was a time for these guys to show up it would be right now
Asking your questions to my friend over there
British Dive team had complete authority on it as they had the expertise.
Now the path is clear Thai seals are back in charge, Thai government wants to rush them out before friday due to all the seasonal rain that is due....
His opinion after living in Thailand for 10+ years, learning about their politics/government and teachings, the UK team has their praise but will be forgotten as soon as the kids are out and are already looking at pressing charges against the coach.
UK – 3 expert cave divers
As well as the 3 cave divers the UK has also sent over some very specialist bits of kit to help with the rescue effort.
As an aside I did wonder if any of the other cave divers had a prepared script ready of what to say if they found the children, knowing that it would be broadcast around the world: "Congratulations you have just been rescued by the United States of America" , "Looks like you guys could do with a MacDonalds supersize meal"..............
His opinion after living in Thailand for 10+ years, learning about their politics/government and teachings
Depends what kind of expat he is, a lot of them have huge attitude problems. I somehow doubt the families will forget them, remember though, they are part of a 1000 man team.
I think it's fairly telling of western attitudes that one of the first thoughts appears to essentially be, "ungrateful savages".
No one mentioned "ungrateful savages" except you as far as i can see.
He's over their teaching children science I think, previously working from a village (where he met his other half) looking after their elephants that they used on the guides, hardly like your common expat relocating to Spain/France etc
He definitely agrees with your huge attitude problem statement though :), apparently some westerners out there have the big old "white hard man" syndrome, they think they rule the roost. Kind of disgusting when some of the Thai's he's encountered have been nothing but accepting, helpful and incredible humbling.
If they package the kids up, would they also sedate them? I believe that cave rescue teams do carry sedatives to relax people (in order to get them out when they have become jammed and panic is stopping them from relaxing sufficiently to free themselves). Surely a similar approach would work if the children are packaged up (to avoid panic attacks etc) but obviously sedatives may not be appropriate to be used in conjunction with a full face mask.
No one mentioned “ungrateful savages” except you as far as i can see.
He’s over their teaching children science I think, previously working from a village (where he met his other half) looking after their elephants that they used on the guides, hardly like your common expat relocating to Spain/France etc
He definitely agrees with your huge attitude problem statement though :), apparently some westerners out there have the big old “white hard man” syndrome, they think they rule the roost. Kind of disgusting when some of the Thai’s he’s encountered have been nothing but accepting, helpful and incredible humbling.
Yeah, I wasn't saying your friend definitely had it - but that is definitely a type - to the point that I'd paint myself brown when travelling if that wasn't racist, so they didn't approach me. In fact 90 percent of the westerners I've met out in the east, have it to differing degrees. They end up thinking they are either rockstars or Kurtz in ****ing Heart of Darkness.
are already looking at pressing charges against the coach.
... who has kept them alive for 10 days.
So, just how how tight is this entrance series that the kids went in through?
Judging by the above link it's a massive tourist attraction. Don't know if the coach had taken the kids into the cave via the main entrance or from some other way.
Criticising them for praying is a luxury westerners have historically only been able to enjoy
My MiL still prays for everything. She recently asked me if I wanted her to pray because I had sinusitis. 🤔
Judging by the above link it’s a massive tourist attraction.
Seen the first review on that link?
She recently asked me if I wanted her to pray because I had sinusitis.
Got better and thought it's divine intervention, but it snot?
Seen the first review on that link?
Yep, hilarious! (although in questionable taste given the lads aren't out of the cave yet)
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Nah let the thread be about the rescue of the kids
I’d paint myself brown when travelling if that wasn’t racist
What an odd thing to say
What an odd thing to say
You'd want to do the same after every westerner you bump into is either a potential Gary Glitter knock off, wannabe colonialist, NGO do gooder or a hippie.
Trapped in an air pocket in a cave sounds pretty horrible. It’s pretty astounding they managed to find one and survive.
10000l of fluid is not so much if you consider 6 land fracking pumps will do that a minute and I have seen rig ups containing 40-50. Trouble is they don’t have that equipment on hand plus probably nowhere to pump to.
Finding them has been a pretty impressive feat. Getting them out before air gets toxic, they get sick or it rains is an even bigger task
NGO do-gooders are the lowest in the opinion of Paul Theroux, the travel writer. He calls their work "competitive piety".
The kids may be physically well although malnourished but one or two of them might be in a bad way mentally. The suggestion of getting them out sedated seems the quickest option.
NGO do-gooders are the lowest in the opinion of Paul Theroux, the travel writer. He calls their work “competitive piety”.
Don't get me wrong, there's a time and a place for certain NGO's. But a lot of them have dehumanizing colonialist attitudes themselves and act as if the locals lack any kind of agency.
Cave rescue child extraction system! (I remember when the cave rescue organisation wanted every caver to wear two hooped earings so that in the case of an emergency they could be nailed to a scaffold plank rather than having to use a stretcher, they were only half joking)
On a more sensible note they are now testing out full face masks on children at the entrance.
Apparantly they have some 400 diving cylinders at the cave and in the underwater sections they have bail-out cyclinders placed every 25m.
10000l of fluid is not so much if you consider 6 land fracking pumps will do that a minute and I have seen rig ups containing 40-50.
It's not much. And even a rig with 40-50 could easily be overwhelmed by one smallish river. If I've got my calculations right you're saying an array could shift 80 cubic metres per minute, ie 1.3 cumecs.
The tryweryn river on a normal minor release runs at around 11 cumecs if I recall. A decent size river would be around 200 cumecs.
So if it starts to rain then they're going to make zero headway pumping.
Threads gone a bit weird......however...
It is believed that most of the group cannot swim, complicating what would already be a difficult rescue.
Non swimmer to extreme cave diver in one easy step.
Lord, imagine being chased up a cave system in the pitch dark by ever rising water level you don't have the ability to swim in. Aged 12. That's some mental torture.
The 10000l comes from the first page equalling to 1cm fluid level drop.
if the equipment is there and the situation allows for the fluid extraction even 6 or 7 100hp c pumps would shift that a min if there was 5 or 6 ft of head.
The calc is correct you would be shifting 80m3 per min which is a fantastic amount of fluid but nothing compared to a river or storm rains. Plus if they could pump out fluid to make it easier they would be doing that. Training kids to cave dive in a day is not going to be a first choice I expect
Wonder if there will be a bit of underwater blasting to make the exit a little less complicated... Though that in itself is complicated too...
I'll add, what a very odd situation to put a bunch of Kids into. I can not comprehend what is going through their minds and the anguish some must be feeling as I sit here in positively abject comfort watching some football match on TV.
Poor sods the lot of them.
I sincerely hope they all get out safely and speedily and in good health.
How about we put a camera down there and the public get to vote which one of them gets rescued at a rate of one per week?
I hear Ant Mcpartlin is looking for a regular TV gig at the moment...
(seriously, amazing work by the rescue team even finding them, having seen someone get disoriented and panic on an open water dive, I can’t imagine that trying to teach them to dive out of there is worth the risk)
I was a Divemaster and went cave diving once. Never. Again. I’ve dived in some awful conditions but what it demonstrated to me was that I wasn’t keen on being constricted in squeezes in the dark underwater. It was exciting in that way i was worried I would drown in my own drysuit from the level of pee that was coming out !
One of my worst, possibly my worst nightmare. The thought of having to go through sumps filled with water, not knowing how far it extends, fills me with utter terror. A friend and former colleague used to go potholing, and he described going through Swilden’s; I just stuck my fingers in my ears and went lalalalala...
Enormous respect for all those directly involved, especially the specialist cave divers, those are very brave, very special humans.
Been following the news for a while so good news to have found the children with the assistant coach.
They have been in the cave for 10 days in complete darkness and good to hear that they are still staying strong.
Well done to the British cave divers as they are the best in the world.
How about we put a camera down there and the public get to vote which one of them gets rescued at a rate of one per week?
Maybe think about getting yourself a filter.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">ninfan
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How about we put a camera down there and the public get to vote which one of them gets rescued at a rate of one per week?
I hear Ant Mcpartlin is looking for a regular TV gig at the moment…
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Ninfan - you appear to be a really rather pathetic individual. Is your real life that inadequate & lacking that you need to spend your internet time trolling threads about trapped kids for kicks?
Having clicked on the various links posted and having read the Norwegian story years ago, I'm sure people that look at us on our bikes think we're mad, but you have to be seriously unhinged to do this cave diving lark as a hobby!`
The most scared I've been was caving to, got to one twisty narrow bit and got wedged, I then had a mild panic and breathed more rapidly only to find my chest didn't move properly so panicked a little bit more - the other people were encouraging me just to relax and push through but screw that, I told them to drag me back and once out didn't venture any further. I honestly can't see how there's any enjoyment from doing it!
Scruff9252 - that’s an interesting reaction to ninfan’s post. In reality everyone commenting on the thread and debating “the problem” as well as following the story actively on rolling news is voyeuristically enjoying* the drama unfold and has zero chance of helping the outcome. Ninfan may not have intended his comment to be anything other than a flippant joke but it seems like a fairly reasonable piece of social commentary. If it made you uncomfortable it may say more about you than him.
*I accept that enjoying is a controvertial word here but my volcabulary hasn’t found me a better one.
Ninfan may not have intended his comment to be anything other than a flippant joke but it seems like a fairly reasonable piece of social commentary.
+1
The joke made me smile, and like many jokes there was a trace of truth in it. (Just after I read it I saw the TV images of the unfortunate kids on the news which isn't so far away from Ninfan's jest.)
Bit of black humour is a useful coping mechanism.
I’m sure people that look at us on our bikes think we’re mad, but you have to be seriously unhinged to do this cave diving lark as a hobby!`
I believe that well known cave diver Chris Boardman used to enjoy a bit of cycling.
I once did a short duck in a cave in Derbyshire, no more than a few feet, but I still shudder now when I think about it.
well known cave diver Chris Boardman
He's a well known diver and he may have dived some overseas caves but he's not a 'British' (i.e. tight wriggly caves with side mounted tanks) cave diver as far as I am aware.
Anyway it is good to see that the children are all in good spirits and reasonably OK.
Good analysis on newsnight last night https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b98mky/newsnight-03072018
Ninfan may not have intended his comment to be anything other than a flippant joke but it seems like a fairly reasonable piece of social commentary.
I laughed at that too. (But then I think they're "savages" or something, if that arsehole comment was intended for me.)
Fantastic to see the rain is still holding off.
He’s a well known diver and he may have dived some overseas caves but he’s not a ‘British’ (i.e. tight wriggly caves with side mounted tanks) cave diver as far as I am aware.
I wasn't suggesting him as a potential super hero rescuer for the lads in Thailand, merely responding in light hearted fashion to a previous post. I have no idea if he has ever passed through a tight squeeze or worn his tanks at a rakish angle around his waist, but he is British and a cave diver.
seems to be the idea to teach the kids to dive quickly to get them out. If they do have the luxury of time daily dive lessons and exposing them to cave diving bit by bit. More they do the less scary it is, possibly out in a few weeks. Not too sure if full face masks would fit kids and get a good seal but there is also the option of Comms between divers.
They are saying that heavy rains could come within days mean that if they are to dive out it has to be before then, so unfortunately the luxury of teaching them to dive properly isnt there
There is also a worry that heavy rains may flood the entire chamber, so even the theory of supplying them with food for months until the rain ends looks dangerous
The plan/hope is to pump enough water out before rains come again so that they can crawl/swim out but there will still be long sections where they have to dive
sounds incredibly dangerous to me, especially as they are weakened after 9 days of no food, non-swimmers, let alone divers
they have already put a request out for small face masks, no idea if they have them?
small face masks, no idea if they have them
Thai news shows children outside the cave trying on masks for size
They can't leave those kids inside that cave for months, lack of daylight, lack of exercise and the damp atmosphere will cause them all kinds of skin, muscular, growth and vision problems; not to mention the psychological torment. They will be on a diet of high energy food and their teeth will rot.
Give them something to relax them and make them happy and introduce them to diving, fast, so that they associate diving with fun. They are small and already emaciated so shouldn't present a challenge for a couple of burly divers to escort through the sumps.
Positive sounding update. Got more drainage systems in so they can, hopefully, walk out. Gotta get going before Sunday!
"https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/05/rescuers-draining-thai-cave-in-hope-football-team-can-walk-out-before-rains"
Says this on the BBC:
The total journey from the cave's entrance to the trapped group currently takes a total of 11 hours - six hours in and five hours back out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44720785
is that right, I thought it was more like an hour each way?! Thats mental.
2.5miles and not in a straight line or wide...so suspect the 6 hours is more accurate.
Looking at the simplified cave survey on the above BBC link there's a few fairly tight sections, as in less than a metre high and wide. Not something I'd expect anyone to follow in a non-sporting cave. It also isn't clear if there are some sections of the currently flooded section that will clear to allow shorter dives to take place.
The narrowest bit looks to be near Pattaya Beach which is where they originally thought they'd find them so if they can pump enough water out to get that above the water level it will make things much easier.
Just seen that cave survey as well.
Hope they all get out, but i'm struggling to see why they would have gone so far into the cave and especially further than the 'Pattaya Beach' section? Especially if they would have had to crawl/squeeze through.
Apparently local youth initiation ritual to get to the end of the cave & right your name on the back
More British cave divers are flying out with half a ton of kit, including adaptors so that they can use the local Thai air cylinders (different fitting standards..............)
From the Thai media.
Thai rescue diver has died after running out of air on the way back. This is no picnic, is it 🙁
MIght be an hour each way when the cave is dry and you are walking in with trainers and a football shirt. Once flooded it takes 11 hours.
I was reading about phones lines etc running in yesterday and it crossed my mind that the main danger is now to the people shuttling in and out as complacency/familiarity may increase the risk 🙁 (Not saying that is the case with the Thai diver)
Thai rescue diver has died after running out of air on the way back
Just seen it on the news, very sad. Let’s hope everyone else makes it safely from here.
Saw this picture of the diver that died, thought it was worth reposting to contrast against the blandness of the headlines :
It is just me or does he look as hard as nails in that picture?
Its amazing what people will risk to help save their fellow human beings, let’s hope there isn’t any more and everyone stays safe.
Not sue if it's accurate, but the BBC seem to be suggesting that divers are having to take off their bottles to pass a squeeze in one of the sumps. I guess they will try to enlarge the squeeze before attempting any sort of under-water rescue.
(If accurate, this means the squeeze must be very tight; the divers will be wearing side mounted rig)
@blurty - At the foot of the recent BBC articles is a cave survey. This has cross sections of the cave at various point including the squeeze. There's a human figure by each for scale. The squeeze looks to be roughly circular and about a metre in diameter. There's no indication of how long the squeeze is, could be a metre, could be ten.
There’s no indication of how long the squeeze is, could be a metre, could be ten.
10m? Well thanks for that particular vision of hell you've just given me.
This mornings events re-enforces the fact that this is real people, real lives on the line, and 12 already in deep jeopardy. It also re-enforces how risky every dive is in a cave - and that a 'quick' exit for the boys is fraught with issues.
The squeeze must be small for it to be tanks off - and it is tanks off, not side wearing apparently.
One thing I've not seen is whether the water in the flooded sections is flowing or relatively static. The difference in times for getting to the kids and returning would indicate that there's a small flow towards the entrance. That's both a help and a hindrance. Help in that it makes it less work in getting out as you are going with the flow, hindrance in that if there's a dead end you have to ensure that no-one gets into one of those.
Thailand seems to be having a particularly rough ride this monsoon season.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44728478
That's a nice photo of the diver who died. I'd bet that's how he'd like to be remembered. Proper hero. RIP.
New reports suggest they've found a way in from the top that gets to within 200m, and Elon musk has offered his boring equipment! On the minus side they are also saying too many rescuers are depleting the available air for the boys. Following this closely.
I read somewhere that heavy rain is forecast for Sunday.
RIP Saman Gunan (different news outlets quoting different names but what a hero).
Elon Musk has also suggested a huge inflatable tube. Would like to see that in action
Surprised Trump hasn't waded in with some useful tweets...
What not even sending prayers?
Announcement expected in Thailand on rescue efforts. Looks like they may have to go for it before the rain turns up.
Terrifying, but it looks like they have no choice.
surely if there's boring needed then James Milner needs to be put of stand by. He could bore through anything.
https://twitter.com/BoringMilner?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
200m through rock. Surely that's within oil drilling capabilities?
Elon Musk has also suggested a huge inflatable tube.
He's sending engineers from his boring company to help with power issues and also to look at the possibility of using the tubes to get them out.
@theotherjonv - oil drilling tends to be less than a metre diameter. Yes, they've got within 200 metres but that's through passages of goodness knows what size and complexity, getting any large machinery to that point would be a gargantuan task.
Heavy duty inflatable tube would need air lock style entry and exits. From the graphic I've seen there are several flooded sections rather than one so it should be possible to shuttle the boys through. How much a sufficiently robust tube would restrict the squeeze even further would need to be considered.
Belgian media cite unconfirmed reports rescue mission will begin tonight
Belgium diver says: We expect that the first two footballers will still be at the exit today
Are they in a pocket if air or are they in dry cave.
Could drilling a hole into the chamber not cause an issue with the void filling with water if the air is under pressure?