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Good reading that CraigW, so in summary:
Measured purely on Co2, EV is better than ICE.
The average EV has the equivalent output of a 3 x round the world flight, takes 3-9 years to be Co2 neutral depending on its size, and for the most powerful ones may never be CO2 neutral in its lifetime. This may improve.
Cows are still by far the main contributor of CO2 emissions in the world.
The average EV has the equivalent output of a 3 x round the world flight, takes 3-9 years to be Co2 neutral depending on its size, and for the most powerful ones may never be CO2 neutral in its lifetime. This may improve.
No car, even EVs are ever carbon neutral. I think you've misunderstood. I think you're confusing the time it takes for an EV to produce less CO2 than an ICE which depends on where you live and the energy mix. 3-9 years looks like Frauhofer institute figures which are based on the filthy German energy mix with its brown coal power stations.
Cows are still by far the main contributor of CO2 emissions in the world.
Cows?? The actual cows themselves or what??
It's only co2 from fossil fuels that we need to be concerned about remember.
Did you mean methane?
Cows?? The actual cows themselves or what??
Most cows drive vintage V12 Jaguars. Many have private jets. They just don't care about the planet.
This is why I don't feel at all bad about killing and eating the selfish arseholes.
I think you’ve misunderstood.
He doesn't he's trying to get a bite it's what Kryton does.
So here's a question regarding sustainability.
Electric motors are pretty simple things, right? Couple of bearings and some wire. The batteries will need fixing or replacing eventually of course. Given that we already have the technology to make extremely long lasting body shells cheaply (see Trabants), it should be possible to endlessly fix EVs for less cost than buying new ones. Manufacturer refurbished if you like, like laptops. You could even upgrade the parts to modernise them when tech changes, like they do with aeroplanes.
I'm sure the market wouldn't like this idea, but it's something for progressively minded governments to think about. Mandate that every new car has to meet modular standards. Even if you crash your rust-proof body you could get another body and move all the stuff across. Given that the battery is by far the highest cost item it might be worth it.
given most cars in the scrapyard have functioning drivetrains, I don't think it'll make any difference - they get written off because of some small fault that, due to high labour costs, is more than the £500 value of a 15 year old car.
Even if you crash your rust-proof body you could get another body and move all the stuff across.
Cars are designed to be cheap to assemble in a factory, in a specific order. Sub-assemblies can be assemble off the main production line, then welded together. This allows access to fasteners, etc. Trying to remove things like dash assemblies, wiring looms, etc between cars is much, much more labour intensive, hence very expensive.
People have been on about this kind of thing for many decades. Try driving a 25 year old car, even a very well maintained one, and see how it compares to a modern one. Old cars are bloody awful, that's the main reason people upgrade.
Mandate that every new car has to meet modular standards. Even if you crash your rust-proof body you could get another body and move all the stuff across
The Tesla Model Y is going to be interesting (if they get the assembly working as per filed patents), the body is basically cast as a single piece. People have already questioned how this is going fit in with crash damage repairs but it's a pretty neat idea (along with them getting rid of most of the wiring). Should all help the build costs at least, I doubt it will allow for a quick entire body swap (for the first gen anyway).
the body is basically cast as a single piece
I think you mean "pressed", not "cast". Assembly and quality control were issues that Tesla really struggled with. Established car manufacturers have decades of experience in producing car bodies, they're better at it than Tesla. Aluminium is a more difficult material to work with than steel, so cost considerations limit its use to luxury cars like Teslas, Jags, etc.
I think you mean “pressed”, not “cast”
I was actually thinking that myself but everywhere seems to refer to it as a casting machine, I guess die casting is sort of pressing (I'm not an engineer :p )?
https://electrek.co/2019/07/23/tesla-giant-machine-produce-model-y-body-one-piece/
Quite liking the new Porsche, but bloody hell it's heavy! Quite interested to hear what the "part Formula E, part space craft" motor noise they pipe into the cabin sounds like in reality.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=205&t=1829337
No, they are talking about casting, but of the frame, not the entire body. What they are saying is that they currently cast multiple pieces and then need to weld them together, but they believe they can cast a larger, more complex frame.
Tesla is working on several significant manufacturing improvements for the Model Y production program and it includes building a giant new casting machine to produce a big part of the Model Y frame in one single piece.
Their illustration is a bit misleading because it shows a complete car, with doors, door handles, wheels, etc. fitted. Clearly they cannot cast the doors, wheels, etc as part of a single assembly. From that site, it's impossible to say how much of the body will actually be a single component, but they definitely are not intending to cast an entire car body as one piece.
The scrapping of conventional cars is not a problem. They mostly made of iron which is very easily and cheaply recycled and fed back into the new production system so saves a huge amount of CO2 invested in minimum and producing products from virgin material. The problem comes when you start introducing awkward materials like plastics and composite materials.
Cars are becoming simpler to produce anyway. Look at Tesla's...they all effectively the same in terms of hardware. When you spec the car up from new and pay for options they're just 'turned on' in the software...meaning as the car gets a bit older you can turn on new and other new features and options later in life. Also new features are introduced via software so the cars can be kept upto date and modernised after they've been built so removes a lot of the reasons why people get rid of cars to buy new ones.
But as soon as people get rid of this ridiculous notion of car ownership and think more about cars as things you pay for access to then that will release a lot of opportunities. Why just have access to one car...one day you might need a big family car, the next day you might only need a small super efficient car to get you to and from work, the next day you might be in the mood for a bit of fun and want something a bit sportier. You can have all this if we think differently about how we use and pay for access to cars rather than waste time, money and resources owning cars.
And good luck getting that cast aluminium Tesla repaired if you have a minor accident. That's going to be an unrepairable car.
But as soon as people get rid of this ridiculous notion of car ownership and think more about cars as things you pay for access to then that will release a lot of opportunities. Why just have access to one car…one day you might need a big family car, the next day you might only need a small super efficient car to get you to and from work, the next day you might be in the mood for a bit of fun and want something a bit sportier. You can have all this if we think differently about how we use and pay for access to cars rather than waste time, money and resources owning cars
Probably needs autonomous driving to make that work well though otherwise there would be a significant cost for delivering/collecting/storing cars - they can't even get bike share schemes to work well let alone car share schemes as you describe. But yes eventually it will make a lot of sense for most people not to own a car.
Whilst cars in scrap yards might have "functioning" powertrain, those powertrains are worn!
People always say "EVs are rubbish because the battery wears out" and yet compeletly fail to realise that their ICE is much,much worse, with litterally thousands of complex moving parts that wear out every single time you use it. A ICE with 150,000 miles on the car, even when "working" is worthless simply because of the risk that someting will fail catastrophically and write the car off. And for most people, estimating the health of a second hand car is impossible. Sure you start it up, give it a rev, look at the exhaust for any smoke, maybe even lift the bonnet and have a look, but really, you're just guessing. You could have a car that sounds and looks perfect, and yet breaks down on the way back from the seller!
With an EV, the mechanical simplicity means it is much more robust, there are many many less things to wear out, the big bits are actually really easy to replace (compare the complexity, difficulty and time required to say change a set of pistons in an engine to changing a battery cell in a battery....).
But the biggest advantage for an EV is that the bit that does wear out, the battery is both pretty predictable, and cruically, is monitored in real time. You can go look at a second hand EV, and with a few presses of buttons on the dash, it will tell you precisely how worn the battery actually is!
Go look at two 100,000 mile ICE vehicles and you're left at best estimating which might be the bless wornout car. Go look at two 100,000 mile EVs and you can see which one IS the less worn out car!
Cars are designed to be cheap to assemble in a factory, in a specific order.
I know, this could be changed. It would take a government with teeth though not this modern laissez-faire stuff that is allowing our planet to be destroyed so people can enjoy slightly increased comfort and refinement and a better steering feel.
And good luck getting that cast aluminium Tesla repaired if you have a minor accident. That’s going to be an unrepairable car.
Just like most modern cars. Take a look at the write off categories and write offs on the market. If it needs putting on a jig because the shell is damaged it's a write off whether the shell is made in one piece or several. Specialists will still buy and repair them as now, they'll devise repair methods to get them leagally back on the road..
People who commute regularly find it convenient to have their own car. The most obvious thing is that a very large proportion of cars get used at the same time every morning and evening, so regular commuters will pretty much still need one car each anyway. On top of that, with your own personal car you can leave stuff in there instead of having to clean it out completely every time you use it, you don't need to worry about someone else leaving it dirty and full of rubbish (or vomit, etc), you don't need to check that everything is in order before using it, and so on. It is a nice idea, but I think you'll find that most people who currently own a car will still want their own car instead of sharing one.
Maxtorque is right as usual. This is likely to be a bigger change to our automotive industry long term than anything else EV related I think.
And for most people, estimating the health of a second hand car is impossible.
Ha! Kicking the tyres is tells you need to know.
He doesn’t he’s trying to get a bite it’s what Kryton does.
Thats the second time Drac, would you like me to write in a complaint for deformation of character? Have you read the other 99% of my 2019 posts before you came to that judgement? I don't, and I've made significant effort in here to tone down anything that can be a argument, for my own benefit mostly. I read it fast during breakfast so maybe yes, I have misunderstood - I'll read it again tonight.
The cows quips was a comedy line, thats all.
. Duplicate.
deformation of character
Stretching things a bit, surely.
deformation of character?
As a kid I once stuck some Star Wars figures in a vice and crushed them beyond recognition.
Thankfully I was below the age of criminal responsibility otherwise a charge of Deformation of Characters might have ensued
Thankfully I was below the age of criminal responsibility otherwise a charge of Deformation of Characters might have ensued
What's the statue of limitations on that?
Quite liking the new Porsche
30,000 orders already.... Wow!
I suspect it's going to pretty epic.
Stretching things a bit, surely
Repeated attempts at describing my character negatively on a public website is not a stretch. Perhaps he should give me the benefit of the doubt, or PM me asking my intention if as a mod he feels I’m trolling, but i’m not and he didn't.
As I said before, my opinion is that as a Mod he’s an even greater responsibility not to promote this behaviour.
Anyway, can we continue nicely with this quite education thread?
IMO, this sort of thing is the future for commuters - especially when they can make them autonomous.
You'll either leave you family car on the drive or rent one when you need one.
We're already in a car club for our "second" car, which can be a van if we need one. Despite having a £200 a year charge before you even look at rentals, it's still cheaper than a second car.
Repeated attempts at describing my character negatively on a public website is not a stretch.
You seem to have missed the joke. Defame = saying bad things. Deform = changing the shape of something (i.e. stretching things).
I'm sold that EV is better for the environment than an ICE.
But with the reduced costs of driving, our roads will be even more congested.
Simply swapping out an ICE to EV is not the complete answer. We need to think how we travel and own cars. Perhaps in the future they'll all be autonomous and you just hail one that is going by.
I'd quite like a Tesla though. It's not often I need to drive further than the range and if I do I'll just rent a car using the huge savings I'm making not running an ICE
Cough!
New EV Corsa.... £26k
Yep, you read that right.
£26k for a chuffing corsa.
This small car EV market is ripe for ripping the cash out of those who think “I want a car, billy down the road said his corsa is nice, let’s git one of em’”
Mugs.
Agreed, I just don’t have time right now #slighltyskewededinburhgdefence
There you go you admitted yourself you're winding people up deliberately. You'll notice all I pointed out was you were trying to get a bite no name calling or slating you.
As a mod and forum user I'm free to point out what some people are doing.
No Drac, no where in that sentence does it state that "I'm winding people up deliberately" so I did not admit to that at all.
Furthermore the post to which I referred to with the sentence...
Agreed, I just don’t have time right now #slighltyskewededinburhgdefence
... is this one
Do you have evidence of that? Where? I mean, if they are shipped into a container back to China, fixed, sent to the factory etc thats also and eco negative. Why aren’t they fixed locally avoiding all that and also boosting the local mechanical workforce, an ICE based industry that’ll need to move with the times?
If you want to promote Tesla as properly eco you need to do your research on everything, not just fuel and performance.
Which as you can see is loaded with question marks, because I'm asking the questions, and admitting I am doing so because I don't have the answers, and the reason for that is I didn't have time to research it. I am asking this questions of those more learned or researched or that have more time on their hands to do so.
You've made an assumption that I posted it to wind people up, when the fact of the matter is that its a genuine ask for information. On that very assumption, you've then chosen the defamation of character route.
You are wrong on your assumption of my intent, and you should apologise in the same way you chose to defame - publicly here
As a mod and forum user I’m free to point out what some people are doing.
Of course you are, yet with caution in case you should make incorrect assumption and with a vocabulary that does not cause offence. I refer you to Marks guidance.
The autonomous driving would be a big draw for me actually. Obviously I’d prefer it to drive itself completely, but it’d be nice to be able to have it take over for a minute on a quiet stretch of motorway whilst you eat a sandwich, stretch, rub your eyes, fetch a kid’s toy etc etc.
Although I didn’t realise it was an extra cost option. I might not spec it if it costs more than a few hundred.
I think the current Tesla range (S, 3, X) come with adaptive cruise and keep-in-lane as standard*. aka 'Autopilot' - these options will keep the car in the lane, steer at speed around most corners, and a pre-set distance from the car in front. Just the sort of thing to have if you need to pick up that toy from the footwell.
It also includes collision avoidance which will try and avoid motorway side-swipes as well as forward collisions.
The Full Self-Driving (FSD) option at £5,800(!) adds auto-parking (parallel and perpendicular reversing), automated motorway lane change (with confirmation from driver while regulatory approval is sought in the EU and UK), navigation on autopilot (car automatically joins motorway, navigates on the motorway changing lanes as necessary, and leaves the motorway when needed), and the promise/lure of remote summoning your car in a car park, red light warning/braking, and maybe one day autonomous driving with supervision.
*Tesla change the included features on occasion.
[edit] @FuzzyWuzzy, sorry, didn't see you'd answered this already.
You are wrong on your assumption of my intent, and you should apologise in the same way you chose to defame – publicly here
I am sorry you felt offended by me saying you were trying to get a bite.
Interesting reply Drac, let’s leave it there with the double standards available for everyone to see and move on.
Cough!
New EV Corsa…. £33k
Yep, you read that right.
£33k for a chuffing corsa.
This small car EV market is ripe for ripping the cash out of those who think “I want a car, billy down the road said his corsa is nice, let’s git one of em’”
Mugs.
FITM because this time I checked the Vauxhall website instead of watching Carwow Vid..
£33k.
Yep....
Does anyone else on here have a model 3.
My SO will pick one up (SR+) next week to replace a MB. Looking forward to it.
I've had a Model S for a while now. I've driven a few other (non-EV) cars in the same period and each time I cannot wait to get back into the Model S. Last year I did weekly commutes of 200 miles or so each way. Using the SuperChargers on those trips was great - nice 10-30 minute stop partway through the journey to take a wee and have a tea. Probably already been commented on, but there's rarely any need to add more charge than you'll use in getting to your next charger or your destination. Most times I took longer sipping hot tea than charging to the necessary level took.
Why get a Model 3? We didn't want another diesel or petrol car after having driven an electric. We tested an IPace and a Kia eNiro before settling on the 3.
Would likely have got the eNiro - nice to drive, cheaper than the IPace, viable as a regular day to day car. Sadly, you can't buy them or even order them with any guarantee of getting one in 2020. And the Model 3 price isn't too different.
The Jaguar was fairly plush. High up. 'chunky'-feeling. But so many buttons and switches and stuff all over the place in the cabin!
Both the Kia and the Jaguar had very weak regenerative braking, even in their 'high' settings, compared to the Tesla's default. This just felt weird - like when you get into an automatic after driving a manual and it 'creeps' forward in drive.
To the OP, try a Model 3 if you can. You might prefer the 320d. But based on my experiences I have no idea why that would be so.
Madame just said the Model 3 was the third best selling car in the UK last month. I don't know where she got that from but she's always right so you can argue with her if you disagree.
Indeed it was.
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">Most popular new cars in the UK in August</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">1</span><span class="s2"> Ford Fiesta – 3,978 registrations</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">2</span><span class="s2"> Volkswagen Golf – 3,439</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">3</span><span class="s2"> Tesla Model 3 – 2,082</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">4</span><span class="s2"> Ford Focus – 1,886</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">5</span><span class="s2"> Mercedes-Benz A-Class – 1,880</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">6</span><span class="s2"> Ford Kuga – 1,770</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">7</span><span class="s2"> Volkswagen T-Roc – 1,685</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">8</span><span class="s2"> Volkswagen Tiguan – 1,632</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">9</span><span class="s2"> Vauxhall Corsa – 1,592</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s3">10</span><span class="s2"> Ford Ecosport – 1,477</span></p>
Oh FFS!
I imagine you know someone who knows how to clean that up a bit? 😆