nickhit3secular education system you say? Like France? How well is that working out for them? g
That's got far less to do with France's education system and more to do with their colonial forays into muslim nations in North Africa and subsequent ghettoisation of said muslims creating a fertile breeding ground for radicalisation.
Pop down to Halifax, Dewsbury, Rochdale etc with your daughter or wife.
Have a walk around so how it works out for them.
What's this even supposed to mean? I was born and raised near Dewsbury and have also lived in Halifax. I genuinely have no idea what you are going on about.
+1 Sandwich, I completely agree.
I work in an Asian area of Rochdale.
I've absolutely no idea what you're on about either.
Neither do my African, European and Asian colleagues who have just read this thread and your comments.
One of our residents, a Muslim man, has been in tears all day, repeatedly asking why these people are doing this in the name of his religion.
His parents can't give him an answer, neither can I.
Islam doesn't make people do this.
Ignorance makes people do this.
Love, light and peace people.
I can tell you very definitely that Islam discourages integration.Denying that is silly.
I drove past my mum's house yesterday to find her (Muslim) next-door neighbour doing a load of gardening for her. I assume it's part of Ramadan, one of its tenets being "Generosity." Next time I'm passing I'll be sure to knock on his door and tell him what a bad Muslim he is.
My views on organised religion are well documented, but I live in an area with a larger-than-average Asian populace and I can tell you from first-hand experience who is "integrating" and who isn't round here. All the shitehawks on my block are white.
Rusty SpannerIslam doesn't make people do this.
Ignorance makes people do this.
And yet there will obviously be corners of the world where the attack will be celebrated. Since there is no canonical authority on what is correct in regards to Islam it comes down to who shouts loudest and I imagine for moderates it's hard to shout down the Saudi's and their $100 billion a year budget of hatred.
well the term canonical refers to christianity, and RC at that, so of course its true they dont have it just like christanity does not have the hadith
Hey well done you scored points. Here, take some points.
I still don't know what you mean.
God was created by man.
Everything done in the name of God is the work of man, with all his failings and vulnerabilities.
Any thought, any ideology can be used to influence people in an infinite variety of ways.
It's just how we are.
Blaming Islam makes about as much sense as blaming the Wright brothers for a plane crash.
mitsumonkey - Member
What would I do,
1. Close all faith schools, secular schools only from now on with a varied mix of children from all races.
I agree completely, ****ing madness that we create divisions so young, would be hugely unpopular with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc etc, Sadly Blair loved them and his heirs Cameron and Gove loved the free school as a way to splinter education in the name of parental choice, Maybot wants her grammar schools too so that's a no no
nice idea forced relocations of millions of Britains sounds like it'll be fun (fwiw my street has an almost equal white/non white split, but it's a nice middle-class area so we integrate quite nicely)2. No single race/religion 'ghettos' diversity is needed.
yeah I'm not a fan, but you will just be preventing women from ever leaving their houses and experiencing ever more subjugation3. Discourage/ban the wearing of the burka, it's just a control garment forced onto women.
4. Outlaw Halal slaughter, again religion has no place in the food chain.
Again sounds nice, bit hypocritical in a world of intensive dairy and battery hens, etc
Rusty Spanner - MemberI still don't know what you mean.
God was created by man.
Everything done in the name of God is the work of man, with all his failings and vulnerabilities.
How do you think this argument would have fared against the young men who tried to murder people with a van, then began stabbing random stangers with hunting knives?
Do you think you would have been able to stop them in their tracks? Do you think at any point you would be able to make them question the validity of their beliefs?
Any thought, any ideology can be used to influence people in an infinite variety of ways.
It's just how we are.
So are all beliefs equally dangerous and equally benign? Does Buddism or Sikhism have the same potential for violence as christiantiy or Islam? Is it impossible to have a set of beliefs that can't be misconstrued or misinterpreted or twisted towards violence?
Awaits three week ban.
Is it impossible to have a set of beliefs that can't be misconstrued or misinterpreted or twisted towards violence?
Quite possibly very rare...
People form their beliefs to their desires, not generally the other way round.
[quote=jimjam ]Hey well done you scored points. Here, take some points.
I pointed out a flaw in your point, react how you feel best represents you
What would I do,
1. Close all faith schools, secular schools only from now on with a varied mix of children from all races.
agreed
2. No single race/religion 'ghettos' diversity is needed.
no idea how you intend to make this works - Muslims tend to live near a mosue as they attend 5x per day seems unfair to make them live miles away for diversity needs.
3. Discourage/ban the wearing of the burka, it's just a control garment forced onto women.
its not about control its about choice. What on earth do you think banning women from wearing certain garments is exactly is not about force, control and making them wear what you want. Forcing women to wear what you want is no solution to women being forced to wear clothes of other peoples choosing [ even if this false trope was true]
i am always astounded when meat eaters suddenly care about animal welfare issues. I always suspect that is not the real motivation here4. Outlaw Halal slaughter, again religion has no place in the food chain.
JunkyardI pointed out a flaw in your point, react how you feel best represents you
No you were just being a pedant, trying to score points by deliberately misinterpreting my use of the term "canon". Either that or your not aware of the broader use of the word canon and the term canonical which doesn't necessarily refer to christianity or catholocism.
i am always astounded when meat eaters suddenly care about animal welfare issues.
Have you witnessed both forms of slaughter first hand for the comparison? I have btw.
I know someone else posted a link on the same subject but this really needs addressing by Government for things to progress:
Sensitive' UK terror funding inquiry may never be publishedAn investigation into the foreign funding and support of jihadi groups that was authorised by David Cameron may never be published, the Home Office has admitted.
The inquiry into revenue streams for extremist groups operating in the UK was commissioned by the former prime minister and is thought to focus on Saudi Arabia, which has repeatedly been highlighted by European leaders as a funding source for Islamist jihadis.
The investigation was launched as part of a deal with the Liberal Democrats in exchange for the party supporting the extension of British airstrikes against Islamic State into Syria in December 2015.
Tom Brake, the Lib Dem foreign affairs spokesman, has written to the prime minister asking her to confirm that the investigation will not be shelved.
The Observer reported in January last year that the Home Office’s extremism analysis unit had been directed by Downing Street to investigate overseas funding of extremist groups in the UK, with findings to be shown to Theresa May, then home secretary, and Cameron.
However, 18 months later, the Home Office confirmed the report had not yet been completed and said it would not necessarily be published, calling the contents “very sensitive”.
A decision would be taken “after the election by the next government” about the future of the investigation, a Home Office spokesman said.
In his letter to May, Brake wrote: “As home secretary at the time, your department was one of those leading on the report. Eighteen months later, and following two horrific terrorist attacks by British-born citizens, that report still remains incomplete and unpublished.
“It is no secret that Saudi Arabia in particular provides funding to hundreds of mosques in the UK, espousing a very hardline Wahhabist interpretation of Islam. It is often in these institutions that British extremism takes root.”
The contents of the report may prove politically as well as legally sensitive. Saudi Arabia, which has been a funding source for fundamentalist Islamist preachers and mosques, was visited by May earlier this year.
Last December, a leaked report from Germany’s federal intelligence service accused several Gulf groups of funding religious schools and radical Salafist preachers in mosques, calling it “a long-term strategy of influence”.
The Lib Dem leader, Tim Farron, said he felt the government had not held up its side of the bargain made ahead of the vote on airstrikes. The report must be published when it was completed, he insisted, despite the Home Office caution that information in the document would be sensitive.
“That short-sighted approach needs to change. It is critical that these extreme, hardline views are confronted head on, and that those who fund them are called out publicly,” he said.
“If the Conservatives are serious about stopping terrorism on our shores, they must stop stalling and reopen investigation into foreign funding of violent extremism in the UK.”
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/31/sensitive-uk-terror-funding-inquiry-findings-may-never-be-published-saudi-arabia ]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/31/sensitive-uk-terror-funding-inquiry-findings-may-never-be-published-saudi-arabia[/url]
greentricky - Member
I know someone else posted a link on the same subject but this really needs addressing by Government for things to progress:
It's almost irrelevant. If the Saudi's stopped buying british weapons the uk arms industry would collapse, and possibly the economy with it.
How do you think this argument would have fared against the young men who tried to murder people with a van, then began stabbing random stangers with hunting knives?
It's not an argument, just something I believe to be true.
Does Buddism or Sikhism have the same potential for violence as christiantiy or Islam?
Yes.
They all have the same potential.
Given enough time and will, anything can be corrupted.
Unspeakable acts are commited in the name love every second of every day.
[url= https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/207047-Religious-scholars-issue-unanimous-fatwa-declaring-suicide-attacks-Haram ]Fatwa issued against 'Islamist' terrorism[/url]
OK, this thread is a bit heavy going, so time for an intermission!
[url= https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/871420302571524096 ]StupidTwitterThreadOfTheDay[/url]
^^ read that and try not to laugh. Some terrific responses, from people clearly way brighter than the original tweeter!
My wife won't let me read anymore of that Twitter feed as my laughing will wake the kids.
Does Buddism or Sikhism have the same potential for violence as christiantiy or Islam?
Read a little of the history of the Indian sub-continent. Also, find out about the current massacre in Burma.
wilburt - Member
I can tell you very definitely that Islam discourages integration
How so? Does it discourage it any more than any other religion?
For that matter, a good number of obnoxious atheists hardly encourage it!
Forgot to mention. Lucorave - one of the best posts I have ever read on here.
jamj1974 - Member
Forgot to mention. Lucorave - one of the best posts I have ever read on here
Ditto.
4. Outlaw Halal slaughter, again religion has no place in the food chain.
i am always astounded when meat eaters suddenly care about animal welfare issues. I always suspect that is not the real motivation here
Jimjam you misunderstand me, I'm not complaining that it's barbaric, I'm saying there shouldn't be any religious influence on the production of meat or indeed any food.
El-bent - Member
I have no clue what you are going on about El-bent.
How comes I'm not surprised at this?
You really need to explain yourself, go on, in basic terms, what the hell are you on about?
A suicide bomber/attacker has been pre-convinced they are achieving something and that they are contributing towards that.
So remove that, for example, ex-communicate them from their faith before burial, do something so bad that they'd never get there.
I'm gonna run into a crowd and blow myself up and be consigned to purgatory...hmm...Bury them in a paupers grave with nothing due their faith, and if that means its against the up-most tennents of your faith, tough you removed yourself from it being a sh*tbag
wilburt - Member
I can tell you very definitely that Islam discourages integration
How so? Does it discourage it any more than any other religion?For that matter, a good number of obnoxious atheists hardly encourage it!
It's actively discouraged by the local high-caste Indian community, or it was some years ago, I think they're Hindu, not Sikh, but one of the daughters of the head of the 'clan', for want of a better word, possibly community leader might be better, but anyway she had a local white English boyfriend; nothing wrong in that, all hunky-dory, until, that is, they announced they wanted to get married.
Oh dear, she was told, in no uncertain terms, that the relationship stopped right there, if she wanted to carry on, she was out of the family, no ifs, no buts.
She stood her ground and was kicked out of the family!
I haven't seen her for some years, I think the marriage broke up after some time, but no idea if there was any eventual mending of the rift or not.
They were certainly well-off, the younger daughter went to Grittleton House School, an expensive local public school, and they acted as banker for the community, so I understand.
Just an example of the fact that all races can be bigoted and racist towards others they disapprove of, it's not just the preserve of white Caucasians, no matter what some people would have us believe.
call me a sceptic, but it seems to me that a full frontal attack on peoples religion won't have any affect on reducing terrorism. Most likely the opposite tbh.mitsumonkey - MemberJimjam you misunderstand me, I'm not complaining that it's barbaric, I'm saying there shouldn't be any religious influence on the production of meat or indeed any food.
Intolerance isn't a solution.
^ trudat, slight tangent but an American friend of mine who's lucky enough to move in higher circles told me that political allegiance is a deal breaker within the dating department.
Jimjam you misunderstand me, I'm not complaining that it's barbaric, I'm saying there shouldn't be any religious influence on the production of meat or indeed any food.
What does it matter? Why are you scared about it? Do you apply the same bar to Kosher food?
AIUI (IANAMuslim),
Halal slaughter was an attempt to reduce suffering of animals killed for food. Technology has surpassed the Halal process now to a point where Halal is achieving the opposite effect. What's more important, literal interpretation or intent? It's a weird dichotomy.
The whole religion thing is a red herring. Religion is a whole other subject worthy of a different discussion but not just Islam that should be in the firing line but all religion - but Islam in particular needs to be scrutinised and challenged more than any other religion because we've been pussy-footing around it for so long for some reason and treating it like a special case unlike any other institution. But in this case it is utterly irrelevant. There is only one reason for these terrorists doing what they are doing - hate. they just hate us and want to kill us. Simple as that. And its not just us, it's each other too - they're slaughtering each other, so they're at war with everyone. We shouldn't be so surprised as history is littered with other such people who just want to kill people - Hitler for one. We don't have multi-page threads searching for justification as to why Hitler slaughtered millions of Jew's - we just accept he was a Megalomaniac Psychopath who hated Jews and wanted to take over the world. Any attempt to give consideration or empathy to their (the terrorists) stated reasons for their killing, such as extremist religion or UK foreign policy, is just to legitimise their claims. We shouldn't accept it, shouldn't give it any space to breathe and just deal with it. Sometimes in life things are black and white and you just need to choose a side and this is one of those cases.
The root cause here are psychopathic hateful cowards preying on other vulnerable people to do their dirty work using Islam as a conduit and radicalising them - brainwashing them to do their bidding. It is a process that takes time so we need to get in there and catch these people as early on in the radicalisation process as possible and catch those doing the radicalisation.
We [s]don't[/s] have multi-page threads searching for justification as to why [s]Hitler slaughtered millions of Jew's[/s] we should or shouldn't punish Muslims
Anyway, I thought (and I was mostly wrong) that this thread was an attempt to identify the causes, not the 'justification'.*
*That's some rampant spin you have there.
Terrorist attacks aren't the same thing as an invading army. Hitler and the Nazis invaded countries. Now we can try and cast Muslims as 'an invading army', but that would be much closer to Nazi propaganda. Remember, the Nazis claimed that they were over-run with 'inhuman' immigrants who drained the very life blood from the Proper Germans TM.
The root cause here are psychopathic hateful cowards preying on other vulnerable people to do their dirty work using Islam as a conduit and radicalising them - brainwashing them to do their bidding. It is a process that takes time so we need to get in there and catch these people as early on in the radicalisation process as possible and catch those doing the radicalisation.
That makes sense on the face of it. But, slow down, references, evidence? Who are these 'psychopathic hateful cowards'? Where are they right now, and where did they come from? And what percentage of attacks are inspired/directed by these same people?
And re Hitler
we just accept he was a Megalomaniac Psychopath who hated Jews and wanted to take over the world.
I never just accepted that, I'm still looking for answers as to how millions of everyday German people stood behind a psychopath and were very happy to 'get rid' of the Jews. Because without understanding the radicalisation and motivation of the German people then we understand next to nothing about the 'power' of Hitler.
It is a process that takes time so we need to get in there and catch these people as early on in the radicalisation process as possible and catch those doing the radicalisation.
What if 'those' doing the radicalisation are not people but acts, events, continual attacks on a culture etc,.
Imagine this. Another country starts interfering in the UK as they don't like what we are doing here and how the country is run. It does this for years and then starts a bombing campaign, funding groups within teh country that try to bring it down and so on.
You either live in this environment for 20 years or maybe you have escaped and now live abroad but still see your UK friends and families being subjected to it.
Do you think some (a tiny minority) of the UK people may start losing it, taking action themselves, killing people from the other country, travelling to the other country to do harm etc,.
Not justification but a different perspective that can be related to.
It's actively discouraged by the local high-caste Indian community
You have to be very careful with this kind of anecdote. You don't really know how prevalent that attitude is; nor do you know if it also happens in other communities. I'm pretty sure it does. A (completely secular) Scottish mate of mine once caused a fair bit of consternation in some elements of his family by going out with a Catholic girl.
There is only one reason for these terrorists doing what they are doing - hate. they just hate us and want to kill us. Simple as that.
Wobbliscott, I agree with most of your post, but I do think it is not as simple as that. I am of the opinion that these kinds of attacks are carried out by people who are simply disturbed and need something to fight for. They are then being used by other people with a broader agenda of disruption but for largely similar reasons I think except on a larger scale. I'm sure ISIS leadership are just drunk on power.
Zokes you ain't reading it, I said ANY religious influence on the production of food. I'm not singling out one religion, it's all of them.
Zokes you ain't reading it, I said ANY religious influence on the production of food. I'm not singling out one religion, it's all of them.
But why do you want that? What would be the purpose?
why do you want to attack peoples religion?mitsumonkey - Member
Zokes you ain't reading it, I said ANY religious influence on the production of food. I'm not singling out one religion, it's all of them.
At least he's inclusive in his bigotry 😆
Heres the guy claiming to have notified the (under-resourced) anti-terrorism hotline 2 years ago about one of teh London Attacjers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40159360/they-didn-t-get-back-to-me
Whats your point kimbers, is it what is expected that you reply to assure people are terrorists or being watched?
Junkyard - lazarusmolgrips » I can tell you very definitely that Islam discourages integration
Can you go into a bit more detail?Hadith or Koranic reference please
Posted 15 hours ago #
Here's a couple (there are others)
Quran (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
Quran (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide."
Islamic scholars argue about what it really means, but as with all things that can be interpreted, some people will take it to an extreme. I was working in Indonesia last year, and there were some pretty big protests after a christian politician accused some Imams of delibrately using 5:51 to create divisions.
Here are some great Christian intergrationists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
hate is not exclusive, along with reading what you want from very old books