[Closed] Terrorism

mitsumonkey - Member
It's all part of their total contempt for the country they are living in,

Continuing to demonise a religion plays into the hands of the recruiters.

Because that's what they believed they had

Yet, that has been proven to be inaccurate.

Why would you use something that you know to be inaccurate if it's not in an effort to imply the opposite.

You could have caveated it with an admission that it was wrong but you chose not to.

Bias much?

It's all part of their total contempt for the country they are living in, that's what it's got to do with it.
Do you know they branded a letter 'M' onto a 13 year old girl to show she was now the property? of Mohammed

No I didn't know. I still don't know. You didn't give any reference. And...'they'?

A woman has told the Old Bailey how she was branded with the initial of a man who raped her and turned her into a sex slave when she was 12 years old.
The witness, now 19, was giving evidence at the trial of nine men accused of grooming children and exploiting them for sex in Oxford.
She said Mohammed Karrar used a hair pin to brand the initial "M" on her buttock to show she "belonged to him".

...."It was M for Mo and he said I belonged to him. He was branding me so people knew I was his."

When you say 'they', what you seem to be saying is that all Islamic men are abusive sexual predators, rapists and paedophiles?

The Glasgow airport attackers hardly fit a deprived background profile.

As for the Rotherham gangs, that was down to the way those groups of Muslim men thought about the Infidel girls. Held in complete contempt they were utterly worthless to them. Didn't it turn out their families all came from one particular part of ****stan?

Or can we not talk about that?

I'm not sure whether our society has failed them. The Manchester bomber was university educated wasn't he? I haven't seen any working class white kids carrying out terror attacks. Perhaps the Muslim community has failed them?

I believe he dropped out of university however I may be wrong. Maybe it was at this point he fell through the cracks and the ISIS / other extremist recruiters were the support system he didn't find elsewhere.

I'm sure there are many many white working class kids in a similar situation some of whom are radicalised in to the right wing movements, taught by the press and others that their situation is such bacause of muslims or imigrants some of whom will carry out racially motivated attacks albeit on a smaller scale that won't be classed as 'terrorism'. The disinfranchaised 'white' youth isn't going to be targeted by ISIS recruiters.

The scale of the attacks reported as terrorism are a consequence of the scale of the death and destruction that the recruiters feed them, they don't get shown videos of people graffiti get mosques or beating up someone of colour etc they get shown videos of whole families killed by stray Coalition bombs, of hospitals and weddings hit by mistake. It's a factor of scale.

Maybe the 'Muslim community' has failed them, maybe if we stop segregating it in to 'the Muslim community' and 'the rest of society' we would realise that it's societies job as a whole to make things better. I'm an atheist/agnostic if I'm struggling I don't expect just the Humanist organisation to help.

Or can we not talk about that?

maybe if we stop segregating it in to 'the Muslim community' and 'the rest of society'

In that case you could argue that responsibility lay at the door of the proponents of multiculturalism, who absolutely promoted the retention of their identification as 'the Muslim community' rather than integrating into British scociety.

Some bloke whose name shall not be mentioned even warned about the inevitable consequences of this years ago.

Didn't it turn out their families all came from one particular part of ****stan?

No idea, the particular part where the majority killed by US drones are civilians and targets have included a girls' school, community centre and other distinctly non military targets?

No idea, the particular part where the majority killed by US drones are civilians and targets have included a girls' school, community centre and other distinctly non military targets?

I believe the child abuse (in Rotherham st least) was going on well before any drone strikes in ****stan.

Overhead some people chatting about terrorist attacks this morning. The consensus was this is the start of a period of sustained and frequent attacks.
I hope they are wrong but can't find much evidence to disagree.

I think the counter argument is that Islamic terrorists have not demonstrated the ability to perpetrate sustained and frequent attacks in the UK so far.

Lawrence Freedman, Emeritus Professor of War Studies at Kings College, recently posted a series of Tweets which I thought were a good summary of how we should measure the success of counter terrorism:

How should we evaluate terrorism and counter-terrorism as strategies?
Looked at in terms of individual incidents, any successful attack is a failure of counter-terrorism.
There will be leads that weren’t followed or individuals that ‘got through the net’.
But against this sort of individualised threat it is extremely hard to identify all possible militants.
In addition terrorism is not always instrumental with a realistic political objective.
It is often undertaken as revenge for Western policies and as an objection to Western values and way of life.
For individual terrorists the attack itself is a political statement and they have succeeded if they have killed, maimed and destroyed.
But a lasting political effect depends on destabilising the whole society and this requires regular attacks.
Terrorism as a strategy therefore requires a campaign with constant emergencies and incidents.
The aim is to create impression of irresistibility, so that people lose confidence in government/ security agencies/police/army.
Every attack prevented not only spares people misery but also undermines attempts to create a sense of a society under siege.
Keeping successful attacks to minimum so don’t coalesce into something larger is how, over long term, counter-terrorism must be viewed.
In this the UK has been successful over the years but it remains a challenge, perhaps now growing because of links to ISIS in MidEast.
Along with normal security measures the importance of assertions of liberal values/community solidarity should not be underestimated.
In the end that is what it is all about.

There are 23000 would be, could be terrorist in this country, we can only monitor 3000 of them.

Where are you getting this figure from? The number of people "known" to the authorities is quoted at between 3,000 and 6,000 - which, incidentally, is higher than the number of people we have to do any "watching." I've not seen anyone mention tens of thousands (not saying that it's wrong but I'd like to see a credible source please).

The thing that puzzles me about these attacks is why they're automatically labelled 'terrorist'. Many are carried out by lone-wolf nutters

Simply because it's in Daesh's best interests to go "yep, we did that" irrespective of whether it was anything to do with them or not. It adds to their power, makes it appear that they have more resources and reach than they do.

If these people turn out to have been known to the security services (and I suspect they will) then what were they still doing on the street, and should we have locked them up earlier (even if they had not yet done anything currently illegal)?

Because a country with a policy of "guilty until proven innocent" isn't one I want to live in, for a start. These people who are "known" might well not have done anything wrong at all, and you want to round them up because they're brown and look a bit explody? Sure, I can't see how that could possibly cause any problems. You've thought about this, haven't you?

Overhead some people chatting about terrorist attacks this morning. The consensus was this is the start of a period of sustained and frequent attacks.

Sounds like a cast-iron source of information to me. I overheard some people chatting about zombies this morning, so I've stocked up on canned foods and barricaded the door.

Ah, so someone had swapped from blaming the Muslim community as a whole for terrorist attacks to child abuse. No doubt other slurs can be thrown at the community too, what's next? I'm sure those who spend their time insulting leftie liberals on this thread can dig deeper into WWII propaganda for inspiration on stereotyping minorities.

Reap as you sow.

The only way to totally stop these attacks is to have a level of state control and intrusion that we can't financially afford, and I wouldn't want to live under.

Sometimes, sadly, a free democracy comes at a cost. If we forget that, they have already won.l

You need to change the thread title. This thread appears to be about Muslim terrorists not simply terrorists.

Either you've succumbed to racism by implying terrorists means Muslims or you've chosen to discuss one aspect of terrorism but have written an incorrect thread title.

There are consistently acts of terrorism around the world that have nothing to do with Islam.

Very UKip to imply terrorists mean Muslims by default.

I'm going to get flamed for this but it needs to be said..

Over the last couple of weeks I have personally heard some extremist views.. I've not heard these views in a Mosque but public here in the UK. Things like "we should just wipe the lot of them out" and "get them all out of our country". Even "Why can't we just nuke them?"

Should this not be considered "Radical Extremist Thinking" or is it okay because it has been said by British people of western culture?

Have people who think like this not just been Radicalised by the constant stream of one side propaganda they have been fed for so many years now? Whilst out for a ride in the woods today it was a 17 year old kid who told me "we should just nuke them".

All this kid has heard his entire life is Muslim Terrorists. He had no understanding of the effects of foreign policy. He had no understanding of the effects on a population on an invasion. All he has seen is the newspaper and TV reports all his life that just scream Muslim Terrorists whenever? an atrocity has been carried out again Coalition forces or a Western target.

This is because we never see the effects of a drone strike on a school or a Wedding. We don't see the innocent Muslim children's bodies torn apart lying in the rubble. We don't see the effects of the depleted uranium rounds? that litter Iraq or Afghanistan. We don't get these reports on loop for days with names put to faces in the same way as we so when something occurs against a Western target. We may hear that some civilians died but it's okay because we got one bad guy.. the other 30 or 40 civilians are just collateral damage.

We don't see this but many people of Muslim decent do see this because they have family members or contacts that have first hand accounts of life under the threats of drones, The silent killer at 5000 ft. They have family or contacts that have lived for years under Coalition control where atrocities have been carried out time and time again against local populations. We just don't get to hear about these atrocities or if they do come to light when someone like Chelsea Manning releases the evidence, we jail them for 30 years for telling it like it is and brush over it.

They are seeing our western propaganda machine pumping out our western version of events but they are also getting access to the other side of the story through their contacts. Believe me if you wanted to see this side of the story you can find it out there if only you choose to look.

My point is that we are brainwashed as much as they are brainwashed. We say they have no morals for the way they treat women etc.. well, there are sections of western culture that have no morals about the way they treat women etc.. they have ways of life that we in the west find deplorable.. well guess what, they think things we do in the west are deplorable too.

I hear people say, "but we are tolerant in the west" but yet we kill each other based on? race. We kill each other based on authority. We hate people based on sexuality and we hate people based on race.

I hear some of you now saying "bollocks, I don't think like that" or "yes but only a minority think like that" well guess what, only a minority of Muslim people think like that as well.

that and US terrorism in Iraq

To the very good advice "Keep Calm and Carry On", I would add:

If you suspect something, report it.

Eyes and ears open, everybody...

*applauds*

(lucorave's post)

Good point re by lucorave

And a +1 for Woppit as well

Lucorave - voice of sense. Well said.

Have people who think like this not just been Radicalised by the constant stream of one side propaganda they have been fed for so many years now? Whilst out for a ride in the woods today it was a 17 year old kid who told me "we should just nuke them".

My concern here maybe is that saying your young friend there has been "radicalised" kinda dilutes what it means to be radicalised. He's been misled by people in authority and by the media (arguably the same thing) but that's a fair chalk away from becoming a terrorist. At 17 he's probably just repeating what his dad says anyway and has little knowledge about what he's talking about. Though I totally agree that this does need to be addressed; groups like Daesh [i]want [/i]us to hate them so that they can tell their acolytes "look how much they hate us, look how much they hate [b]you[/b]" and we're playing right into their hands.

I think there's a lot of "all mouth and no trousers" going on here. It's the same Billy Big Bollocks bullshit bluster that some folk come out with all the time, "oh yeah, if I were there I'd have knocked his ****ing block off" when the truth is they'd have cacked their pants and run away. All these right-wing shitehawks who want them all "rounded up and shot," I reckon if you gave them a machine gun and went "go ahead" it'd be a very small minority who would actually, really want them all shot badly enough to be able to pull the trigger. It sounds good when you're in the pub with your Daily Express-reading mates and a pint of Best, though.

Should this not be considered "Radical Extremist Thinking" or is it okay because it has been said by British people of western culture?

The west is an all consuming religion in itself.

And just a poisonous as the others.

We've all got that out our systems what should we actually do then?

I'll kick it off..

Stop selling arms full stop not to certain groups just stop selling them.

Stop the flow of Saudi money into UK mosques.

Put more police on the streets in predominantly muslim areas.

Hold the web companies responsible for content.

Hang on, I haven't brought enough popcorn for everybody.

I'll tell you what we need to do right out of the gate to reduce all the hate and bad feeling, as well as solve a whole host of other problems. We need to hold the press to account for inciting hatred and deliberately misleading the public.

Cougar, ****ing on point. People just projecting their impotent rage, I'm sure there may have been a few tough people out last night, but unless you're a ninja there's not much you can do about a van or a knife.

I don't want anyone rounded up, I'd just like to try and help these lads, to hate that much is unhealthy, to kill others ain't cool, and to lie in the street after being dropped by an armed copper is no way for anybodies child to go.

Unfortunately I got in trouble a few years back, so I can't help. DBS prevents it, which is a pain. In fact I'd like to see a little less killing on the whole. It's all a bit pin toess and doesn't seem to be getting anybody anywhere.

@cougar

Agreed and I thank you for the support of my post. But it would only take the right conditioning and someone to offer the means and opportunity for one or 2 of the minority who think this way to fall into the same trap in just the same way.

More arrests in relation to the recent spate of terrorism

I posted a link to the independant on the other thread that higlighted how the MCB havr been utterly complacent and effectively created a victim industry out of the prevent scheme - it got deleted by a mod who then went on to let people bang on about internment. Seemingly if youre opinion is laughable they don't mind - but wor betide you post something that challenges their view.

Political Idlam is the problem - and it has been used as a tool of subdjugation throughout the world against people who haven't wronged Muslims - East Timor anyone?

But sure, keep saying it's our fault we got involved in a war because 2500 civilians of NATOs were killed in a single incident.

All this kid has heard his entire life is Muslim Terrorists. He had no understanding of the effects of foreign policy. He had no understanding of the effects on a population on an invasion.

Some scenes from 1988 - you may recall that this is long, long before drone strikes or wikileaks

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

How about we stop pretending that Islamic extremism is something that stems out of our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan?

MCTD has it above.
I doubt that we will stop these attacks this century. Sadly.
I am amazed how few we have actaully. Its so easy as yesterday and the Houses of Parliament event proved. Indeed these were no where near as bad as they could have ben. A bomb isn't so easy but I bet the materials are out there being collected as I type.
I bet I could wreak the same havoc myself within the next hour. Driving my Landrover round the carpark at Pedalabikeaway here in the FoD would do as much damage. I fail to see how we stop that.
Maybe we will reach the point where the structure of our streets will have to seperate vehicles and people. Another good reason for more pedestrianisation and cycle ways maybe? Won't stop a bomb but it might stop and artic ploughing through bus queues.

I don't believe that dialogue will work especially well. Worth a try but I think it needs a huge effort from the Muslim community at the highest level. Its happening but not at the level needed and official/governement pushing of this will be resented as interefering sadly. Society doesn't fail people. People fail society. Unles there is a learning disability humans know the rules. They choose to ignore them, be they the kids at school who chuck rubbers across the table or the nutter with a van as yesterday. Respect for them No way. They lost any chance of that when they started thinking in an antisocial way. Finally. Balls to the lot of them. Its not stopping me doing what I want to do. I wonder if I would be so brave if I ws in a different situation, ie a pub in London? Hmm. Even so Balls to them.

Suppose we could look at how the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia came about (and Israel for that matter)...

Look to British Intelligence and [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John_Philby ]St John Philby[/url] (father of Kim Philby, linked to among other things, the Kincora scandal)

[b]In November 1917 Philby was sent to the interior of the Arabian peninsula as head of a mission to Ibn Saud, the chieftain who professed Wahhabism[/b], the movement within Sunni Islam, and bitter enemy of Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca, leader of the Hashemites and of the Arab Revolt, both contenders to become "King of the Arabs". Philby secretly began to favour Ibn Saud even though British policy supported Sherif Hussein. Philby completed a crossing from Riyadh to Jeddah by a "backdoor" route, thus demonstrating Saud and not Hussein was in control of the Arabian highlands.

In November 1918, Britain and France issued the Anglo-French Declaration[5] to the Arabs, promising self-determination. Philby felt there was a betrayal of this assurance, along with others made in the Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot Agreement. He saw the promise of a single unified Arab nation as having been betrayed. Philby argued that Ibn Saud was a "democrat" guiding his affairs "by mutual counsel" as laid out in the Quran, in contrast to George Curzon, 1st Marquess Curzon of Kedleston's support for Hussein. After the Iraqi revolt of 1920 Philby was appointed Minister of Internal Security in the British Mandate of Iraq.

In November 1921, Philby was named chief head of the Secret Service in Mandatory Palestine, working with T. E. Lawrence and meeting his American counterpart, Allen Dulles. At the end of 1922, Philby travelled to London for extensive meetings with parties involved in the Palestine question, included Winston Churchill, George V, Edward, Prince of Wales, Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild, Wickham Steed, and Chaim Weizmann.

Considering his role, mention of talks between Philby and one of the key architects of the Holocaust, Adolf Eichmann are particularly eye opening:

John Loftus, who worked in the United States Department of Justice Office of Special Investigations Nazi-hunting unit, claims Adolf Eichmann, while on a mission to the Middle East, met with Philby "during the mid-1930s"

+1

We've all got that out our systems what should we actually do then?

I'll kick it off..

Stop selling arms full stop not to certain groups just stop selling them.

Stop the flow of Saudi money into UK mosques.

Put more police on the streets in predominantly muslim areas.

Hold the web companies responsible for content.

We need to hold the press to account for inciting hatred and deliberately misleading the public.

you can keep your fishing through history for an answer that just isnt relevant anymore.
I will add to Woppits suggestions tho. (eyes & ears open and report it...)
Think about your immediate environment, think about what you are going to do.
Im not talking full on tinfoil hat paranoia here, but nobody wanders alone down a dark ally in town brandishing a fist full of fifties and the latest iphone, you keep your valuables where you know where they are and you make a huge fuss when you spot someone with their hand in your mates jacket.
Same(ish) rules apply. Take all reasonable precautions.
Your dessy for the evening has a lot more to do than just drive home.

How about we stop pretending that Islamic extremism is something that stems out of our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan?

How about you stop trolling? As you are well aware, western meddling in the Islamic world did not begin with Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/22/world/middleeast/years-of-torture-in-iran-comes-to-light.html

@ninfan

As you are well aware, the west have been involved in nefarious ways across the Middle East for a lot longer than people imagine. Whether it be Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Israel etc. etc.
We have pitted regime against regime, supplied arms to all sides to suit whatever political will the time has offered. Millions died in the Iran Iraq war and guess what, we armed both sides.

Look at the way we, The British Empire treated the population of India, The way we conducted Partition in 1947, or the way we conducted ourselves in Afghanistan in the 1800's. We could go further back to the Crusades.. It's just a long succession of perceived atrocities against Muslim or other populations that has cumulated to where we are today. And everyone of these ventures has been for the profit of a few and the expense of many innocent lives on all sides.

If more people realised this maybe there would be a better understanding. I am fully aware that there are no easy solutions but if we do not acknowledge our past errors we will be damned to repeat our mistakes forever.

you can keep your fishing through history for an answer that just isnt relevant anymore.

Bollocks...

The simple fact is, even though events that led to the formation of the Wahhabist Saudi state took place 100 years ago, the attack yesterday in somewhere I know well would never have happened, in the same way if your great grandparents hadn't been born, you wouldn't exist.

More recently, look into the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safari_Club ]Safari Club[/url]

The creation of the Safari Club coincided with the consolidation of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI). The BCCI served to launder money, particularly for Saudi Arabia and the United States—whose CIA director in 1976, George H. W. Bush, had a personal account.[11]

BCCI also served as an intelligence gathering mechanism by virtue of its extensive contacts with underground organizations worldwide.

Casey took personal responsibility for maintaining contacts with Saudi intelligence, meeting monthly with Kamal Adham and then Prince Turki.[15] Some of the same actors were later connected to the Iran–Contra affair.[39]

The existence of the club was discovered by the Egyptian journalist Mohamed Hassanein Heikal, who was permitted to review documents confiscated during Revolution.[3][4][40]

Safari Club members, the BCCI, and the United States cooperated in arming and funding the Afghan mujahideen to oppose the Soviet Union.[41] The core of this plan was an agreement between the United States and Saudi Arabia to match each other in funding Afghan resistance to the USSR.[42] Like military support for Somalia, this policy began in 1980 and continued into the Reagan administration.

I believe the child abuse (in Rotherham st least) was going on well before any drone strikes in ****stan.

Indeed. Saville, Harris, and others were at it long before drones were invented.

You need to change the thread title. This thread appears to be about Muslim terrorists not simply terrorists.

Either you've succumbed to racism by implying terrorists means Muslims or you've chosen to discuss one aspect of terrorism but have written an incorrect thread title.

There are consistently acts of terrorism around the world that have nothing to do with Islam.

Very UKip to imply terrorists mean Muslims by default.

I don't think I need to. I make no such implication. You on the other hand...

And another +1 to lucorave

"Theresa May says 'enough is enough' after seven killed in London Bridge attack. Prime minister says there is ‘far too much tolerance of extremism’ in UK."

Yup.

[img] [/img]

 

edenvalleyboy - Member 
You need to change the thread title. This thread appears to be about Muslim terrorists not simply terrorists.

Either you've succumbed to racism by implying terrorists means Muslims or you've chosen to discuss one aspect of terrorism but have written an incorrect thread title.

There are consistently acts of terrorism around the world that have nothing to do with Islam.

Very UKip to imply terrorists mean Muslims by default.

All very true. I don't like equating terrorism to Islam (not Islam itself but "radical" Islam inspired terrorism if you like), but there's no denying the change in terrorism in Europe and how most people will now just assume a terrorist incident in Europe is related to Islam.

Given that since 2000 in Europe, the majority have been. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Lists_of_incidents

What would I do,
1. Close all faith schools, secular schools only from now on with a varied mix of children from all races.
2. No single race/religion 'ghettos' diversity is needed.
3. Discourage/ban the wearing of the burka, it's just a control garment forced onto women.
4. Outlaw Halal slaughter, again religion has no place in the food chain.
Integration is the only way forward, and as this is the UK then races and religions have to integrate into OUR way of life not the other way round. If we could get the kids playing together from an early age this would all be cleared up in a matter of a few years.

a varied mix of children from all races

How you going to do that in places like Berwick, Inverness, Penrith, etc.

Are you going to bus people in?

Lucorave - we all know a while back the Ottomans subdjugated the Greeks as well - not sure there are any Greeks funding terrorism against Turkey right now to take Northern Cyprus.

Political Islam - has always taken a chauvanistic and expansionist stance in regards to their neighbours - maybe our ancestors when they laid waste to the middle eastern empires and divied them up between various European powers....remembered that.

then races and religions have to integrate into OUR way of life not the other way round

What would you do about the whole arming, training and brainwashing people to fulfil covert geopolitical and economic objectives on behalf of Her Majesty's government?

Or selling weapons that create massive humanitarian crises such as what's currently occuring in Yemen?

Or does that not matter despite the inevitable blowback, because it's profitable for interests connected with Her Majesty's Government?

you can keep your fishing through history for an [b][u]answer that just isnt relevant anymore.[/u][/b]

Bollocks...

The simple fact is, even though events that led to the formation of the Wahhabist Saudi state took place 100 years ago, the attack yesterday in somewhere I know well would never have happened

call it how you like JHJ - i know how we got here, unless you can change history, its not an answer?