[Closed] Teenager has both legs amputated in Formula 4 Crash

Better than a head injury and being a dribbling vegetable. Better than quite a few things actually.

Better than a head injury and being a dribbling vegetable. Better than quite a few things actually.

Seriously?

Poor guy suffered life changing injuries in a horrific crash at the start of a promising motorsport career.

Just when I was thinking how brilliant STW can be wrt some of the other current threads, someone brings it right back down again.

Horrific for the lad 🙁

Bit of an argument of whether to donate or not.

I felt sorry for him and donated my beer money.

True lots of people injured everyday too and we don't donate.

Molgrips, do you mean for your comment to come across as moronic as it does?

Must be horrendous for the poor lad.

molgrips - Member
Better than a head injury and being a dribbling vegetable. Better than quite a few things actually.

Yes. It's bad, but it's not the worst.

Anyway - there's a reason I posted this semi troll post. I find people's attitudes towards the disability of others perplexing. I've often read that the disabled don't want our pity. They want to be enabled to get on with a normal life.

Discuss.

Pretty horrific but agree it could have been so much worse.
(think Michael Schumacher)

Hopefully he'll find a new path to follow, the kind of drive he must have to succeed in motorsport could see him do well in para-sport.
(think Alex Zanardi)

Does having no legs preclude participation in motorsport? Genuine question - obviously he won't be able to use pedals, but could you legitimately compete using hand controls?

Yes, many have, do, and continue to do so. A paralysed friend of mine used to race quads competitively, with some success!

Does having no legs preclude participation in motorsport?

If Douglas Barder can fly a plane with no legs there's no reason why not.

I'm more on Mol's side here, dreadful thing to happen but he can still have a life. Got a nice nest-egg now too.

No, plenty of competitors with vary degrees of disabilities, I know of a guy who drifts without the use of his arms (very impressive, steers with his feet) and many others racing using hand controls.

I think at 17 I would have struggled to get my head around not having legs any more for quite a while. Mind you at 44 it would be tough too.

I do wonder if things like motorsport are harder now when you get injured than it used to be. In the 70's, 80's and before stepping in a car like that you knew there was a very real possibility of death/injury. You would be a member of a league of racers that had accepted that as a possibility and squared it with themselves beforehand. At 17 and as a member of the 'xbox generation' it would be a lot easier to get in a car like that in 2017 and make the assumption only a freak accident would do you harm and not really considered the consequences. Must come as a bigger shock to the system to find yourself broken now than then.

I was brash, arrogant and (in my head) immortal at 17. I think an older head showing me the consequences in full graphic technicolour so at least if the worst happened I could say I made a conscious decision to put myself in harms way and exactly what harm really looks like would have helped.

If Douglas Barder can fly a plane with no legs

There was a woman on telly once getting her pilots license with no arms.

Alex Zinardi raced in the WTCC after he lost his legs so all is not lost.

It's a shame for him, but he's not dead so it could definitely be worse. I'd rather look on the bright side than sink into a depression about an injury.

Bit of an argument of whether to donate or not.

+1

I realize it's whataboutism, but plenty of amateur sports people suffer carer ending injuries every year and just get on with life. He knew the risks of motorsport, rolled the dice and lost.

He's 17, has no dependents, the NHS is there to pick up the pieces in the aftermath. He has every chance of going through 6thform and uni like everyone else and leading a relatively normal life.

I don't disagree that it's a shit thing to happen to anyone, but I don't see the charity in donating to a 17 yr old kid from Surrey who's parent's presumably have enough free cash to fund his motorsport ambitions!

convert - Member

Must come as a bigger shock to the system to find yourself broken now than then.

At the level he's competing at, he'll have seen big crashes, near misses, careers end early... Not that this means you ever think it'll happen to you but it'd be hard to be unaware of the risks.

So sad for him but... I suppose a kid with drive like that is more likely to be able to take it and go somewhere else with his life in much the same way.

I reckon some of the broken-looking beggars in dirty clothes on the streets of Glasgow with only one missing leg would trade places.

i have to kind of agree with Molgrips here
while it is a truly horrific experience for anyone to go through especially one so young...he had an opportunity to do something that many would love to do and thats to race cars...this crash could have turned out much worse for him but he's alive albeit minus his legs but he can still lead a relatively normal life if he wants to
I've seen 2 compelling videos which to me say that he is still in a good position to make something of his life
first one was about a girl who had no arms yet she led a completely normal life...she used her legs and feet t do everything from writing/typing for her studies, feeding herself and driving her car
the second video was of a small child in south east asia...he was probably only about 10 years old. again he had no arms but his mother was also disabled and blind so he was her main carer...again he did everything using his feet to fend for himself and to care for his mother
like i said its bad whats happened to him but he still has plenty to live for

broken-looking beggars in dirty clothes on the streets of Glasgow with only one missing leg

On the bright side, at least shoplifting shoes is a viable proposition

At the level he's competing at

A bit of a tangent....

Genuine question - is that much of a level? Wiki describes it as an entry level category for juniors as a stepping stone one up from carting. Are you chosen by ability at this level or by the size of your parent's bank balance (or how much your parents are prepared to get themselves into debt)? I don't know much about how you get into motorsport - do you have to have achieved anything, driven a certain number of races, passed a meaningful test or been selected in any way to get on the grid for formula 4?

I saw this yesterday, and had the same sort of thought molgrips had, but I had also been reading about Matt Hampton the day before so that's probably why.

BBC says its a replacement for formula ford, so basically a step up from karting for those who can afford it. And realistically, for those that are good enough to get sporsored at this level will have to be loaded anyway, getting noticed at karting level costs an absolute fortune.

A mate of mine at school used to race karts, his family were minted but couldn't afford for him to do a national series let alone be competitive in it. He had a test in a Formula Vauxhall junior, but damaged it and that was that, couldn't afford to repair it.

Convert, you have to sit an ARDS test at a circuit which makes sure you are competent to race. But to answer your question if you've got sponsors or a big bank balance behind you pretty much anyone can compete regardless of ability, same as all motorsport really.

A full season of F4 is getting on towards £100,000 I think despite it being quoted as an entry level motorsport!

Hopefully he'll go the way of Alex Zanardi etc and not let it hold him back. Horrible thing to happen to any driver though 🙁

Mark - thanks.

£100K pa 😯

Is there genuine sponsorship for events at that level? Or is it mainly companies owned by the parents of aspiring drivers 'sponsoring' their child's team as a tax efficient way to fund their kids endeavor?

Jason watt continued to race after being paralyzed from chest down

Feel sorry for the lad but I'm not going to donate, not because I'm a cold heartless bastard (at least I don't think I am...) but for reasons mostly already covered. He was also choosing to take part in what is a dangerous sport and knew the risks, that doesn't mean he deserved what he got, far from it but if anyone should be donating to his on-going rehab and care it should be his sponsors and the FIA (or whatever the governing body is).

I don't disagree that it's a shit thing to happen to anyone, but I don't see the charity in donating to a 17 yr old kid from Surrey who's parent's presumably have enough free cash to fund his motorsport ambitions!

I think this sort of sums up what I was thinking when I originally posted it.

Think molly is just trying to put some perspective on things.....

Is there genuine sponsorship for events at that level? Or is it mainly companies owned by the parents of aspiring drivers 'sponsoring' their child's team as a tax efficient way to fund their kids endeavor?

Generally B

See Max Chilton in F1 and Tom Chilton in BTCC and WTCC. Decent enough, but no doubt helped by the fact that their dad was chainman on AON the insurance broker.

Don't see much need to donate to a privileged 17 year old. Many much worthier causes on the streets.

I'd rather that 260k went to the nurses treating him.

Young lad has to have his legs chopped off after a horrific accident whilst doing what he loved, and you lot are debating how bad it really is for him? What a bunch of tossers

Agreed, legend, feels pretty distasteful. it was a nasty nasty accident, having seen the footage, especially for a 17 yr old, maybe it's better to decide individually and privately if we wish to donate or not, and not take the discussion in a direction of who's worthy or not?

I feel sorry for him, but I wont be donating to a posh boy with money as others have said - and that's coming from someone who was childhood friends with Matt Hampsons younger brother.

Suprised you can get cockpit intrusion and total your legs in Formula 4 tbh, considering the insane energies that the crash boxes in F1 can survive.

Have a look at the video (widely available on YouTube) - it was a nasty accident.

My niece lives with a chap who is well known for having had his legs blown off in Afghanistan. He leads a pretty normal life except that he's a bit shorter without the prostheses. He will never need to work again though as he's being well cared-for financially.

And why are we assuming he is priveliged? Many families work their arses off and get into massive debt 'pursuing dreams' and he was sponsored as far as I know, no knowledge of the family finances!

I saw this yesterday, and had the same sort of thought molgrips had, but I had also been reading about Matt Hampton the day before so that's probably why.

Matt Hamp[b]s[/b]on.

Sorry for being pedantic, but if people want to look him up, I thought I'd give the correct name.
Amazing what he's done since his injury.

And why are we assuming he is priveliged?

Some families could never afford a motorsport habit, regardless of how hard they worked. I'd go so far as to say 'most' families couldn't.

I was watching this with my parents, he basically rear ended a crashed car at full speed! Very sorry for the lad.

I don't normally watch any car based racing, but I was a bit shocked at what goes on in the lower levels of car motorsport, there where more cars on the grass than on the track for most of it!

Think its great that some people want to help. 🙂

and you lot are debating how bad it really is for him? What a bunch of tossers

maybe it's better to decide individually and privately if we wish to donate or not, and not take the discussion in a direction of who's worthy or not?

illuminating that people can read the same thread completely differently. I think there is an interesting debate to be had, especially around the likes of justgiving pages and the differing levels of publicity different victims receive. Who can name another victim of the last London attack other than PC Keith Palmer without resorting to Google, and how much did their justgiving pages raise? (and I'm a serving police officer before I derail the thread by being completely misinterpreted or accused of missing the point). This accident is getting national media attention because it's motorsport and big-name F1 drivers are getting behind it- how many 17yr olds have suffered life-changing injuries in conventional road accidents in the last 12 months, and how many made anything more than the local paper?

As above. I'm discussing attitudes to disabilities, didn't think that was a tossery thing to be doing.

Better than a head injury and being a dribbling vegetable. Better than quite a few things actually

Nope, that's just you saying comparing his injuries to others for no apparent reason. ''Tis but a scratch I assume? Your earlier justification doesn't even make sense as no one had mentioned donations when you made your first post.

The thread was started with the OP talking about it being a shitty thing to happen. Then descended rapidly into judging whether or not he deserves money. Which is a shit attitude, and for all we know the money will help other people's causes anyway

Edit: cant help but feel there's a whiff or jealousy around this thread

Nope, that's just you saying comparing his injuries to others for no apparent reason.

The reason's not apparent to you, no.

I did go on to clarify it. From what I gather, disabled people generally don't want pity.. so a pity thread seemed to warrant a comment along those lines.

I bet if he is any good he will be racing cars before long again.

He knew the consequences, I bet he doesnt regret it for one moment.

A soldier who lost both his legs from an IED in Afghanistan was interviewed on Five Live this morning. He's already been in touch with the young lads family, and spoke to his mother about offering him support.

His attitude was 'you just get on with it'

I'm going to try to not moan about anything else today

With modern prosthetic science moving forwards at a huge rate, and the adoption of not just mechatronic limbs, but integrated ones (ie controlled by the persons nervous system), loosing both legs is not, i suspect, quite the same as it once was, not that many years ago. So, yeah, it's horrible, but he knew the risks imo.

(you've only got to look at Martyn Ashton to see how to do a 'life after significant injury' )

loosing both legs is not, i suspect, quite the same as it once was

However if when ski racing in a younger life I had broken my back etc I would have just accepted it and moved on, you make your choices in life...

As above. I'm discussing attitudes to disabilities, didn't think that was a tossery thing to be doing.

Maybe you should work on your delivery then.

Because your first reply to the OP had a massive stench of Tosser about it.

(You've backtracked to try and justify it since, but that how it came across)

I think there is an interesting debate to be had, especially around the likes of justgiving pages and the differing levels of publicity different victims receive.

Amen to that and +several million

Maybe you should work on your delivery then.

Because your first reply to the OP had a massive stench of Tosser about it.

(You've backtracked to try and justify it since, but that how it came across)

This is inconsistent. You acknowledge that the meaning might be lost in communication, which is fair enough; but then you say I'm backtracking, which implies I actually meant to be a tosser then tried to pretend otherwise.

But anyway, this is derailing the thread. I'm not a tosser, that's all I have to say on that subject 🙂

Back to disability.

Horror crash, and I imagine the 90mins being trapped in the car took him to some pretty dark places. Not sure I'd have been too concerned with other people who may or may not be worse off if I were in the same situation.

Brightening things up a bit, if he still wants to race, there's definitely the tech there to allow him to do so, if this is anything to go by. The people who made the electronics for that lego paper place launcher, work on other, bigger projects..

https://www.wired.com/2014/05/sam-schmidt-quadriplegic-driver/

His justgiving is currently just shy of £500k.

Forget the charity bit for now. It's a horrific experience for this lad to go through and whilst it's always a risk in his chosen sport, it's not one he probably thought likely. Just getting through the event itself is tough, let alone re-adjustment and re-defining his future. Frankly, it doesn't matter what money or support he has got and from where - it's going to be an enormously difficult journey and I am sorry anyone has to go through that.

[url= http://kittypat-daily.tumblr.com/image/159196883146 ]http://kittypat-daily.tumblr.com/image/159196883146[/url]

This seems sort of relevant to the crowdfunder thing. Can't figure out how to direct link to tumblr though

Horror crash, and I imagine the 90mins being trapped in the car took him to some pretty dark places. Not sure I'd have been too concerned with other people who may or may not be worse off if I were in the same situation.

agree.

it's going to be an enormously difficult journey and I am sorry anyone has to go through that.

agree.

But given all the similar cases you/we don't hear about, would/should you donate to his justgiving page, or to, say, a charity that supports amputees or spinal injuries?

It's a horrific experience for this lad to go through and whilst it's always a risk in his chosen sport, it's not one he probably thought likely.

I don't know about you, but when I was that age I thought I was absolutely bloody indestructible. Something that continued into my 20's, where I got into an alarmingly regular habit of chucking motorbikes down the road at high speed.

I look back as a boring terrified old duffer now, and wonder how the **** I made it to 25 alive.

There but for the grace of god, and all that

There's basically bugger all money in Motorsport for most of the people involved - not even an F1 drive means money, a lot of them are paying to be there either in cash or by having their own sponsors who pay the team on their behalf, although a lot of people involved in motorsport are very wealthy from other things - it's still partly the realm of the 'playboy'.

Whether you want to donate is entirely up to you - he may be from a privileged background, he may not be. Neither Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton are from wealthy families – not poor, but not wealthy either.

Ultimately these sorts of things are about a 'community' coming together to help one of their own - like we did for Martyn Ashton.

In this case I’ve decided not to donate, for a couple of reasons – the main one being they’re £200k over target already, and he’s been supported by both Lewis Hamilton (Net worth c£100m and total career earnings estimated at £200m) and Jenson Button (net worth £60m or so) and seemingly most of the rest of the F1 grid.

I really feel sorry for the kid, but even at his age he's put everything on the line to do what he loves and it's cost him, he knew the risks and I hope in time he'll learn to accept them or it'll haunt him forever.

This is inconsistent...... etc

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my meaning.

I don't believe you.

I don't believe in your first post you we're trying to debate how disabled people feel about sympathy.

That's just what you said afterwards when people called you out on your shitty response.

Hope that clears things up.

I don't believe he was either,no-one can be that deluded and up themselves surely.

Crashtestmonkey +1

would/should you donate to his justgiving page, or to, say, a charity that supports amputees or spinal injuries?

That's an entirely personal decision and criticising that choice is a bit like criticising how someone chooses to vote......

Just goes to show the arbitrary, and rather random nature of the causes we support and don't.

I'd suggest very few people put thought into it- just follow whatever tugs at their heartstrings/emgages their interest for a few seconds..

I don't believe in your first post you we're trying to debate how disabled people feel about sympathy.

That's just what you said afterwards when people called you out on your shitty response.

Not sure how anyone could be that much of a dick to directly accuse someone of lying to save face on an internet forum, even though I regularly post thoughtful debate of exactly this kind. But whatevs, your mind is made up, enjoy it.

EDIT actually.. what do you think my original motiviation would be for the first post? Interested.

There's a bloke begging on the street here in Glasgow with no legs. Where's his half a mil?

NB this post is intended to provoke thought about those who are worse off than this lad but who are largely ignored by society.

Just watched the crash video. I think he can class himself as overall fairly lucky, that was horrific and I think if he'd been in a formula Ford the thread would have been very different. (Devils advocate - it might not a resulted in a thread at all)

But whatevs, your mind is made up, enjoy it.

EDIT actually.. what do you think my original motiviation would be for the first post? Interested.

Not just his mind.

'Big-hitter, attention seeking, arguementative, I know better than thou' would seem suitable motivation.

There's a bloke begging on the street here in Glasgow with no legs. Where's his half a mil?

Jesus wept you just dont stop do you? Was he in a massively publicised incident? Doesn't mean he's less worthy, just means that his message/story has reached far fewer people and/or it's had less of an impact on those it has reached. From what I can see, nobody is arguing this other than you....against you.

Molgrips, Im rather perplexed by how some of the right wingers like neal get in a huff about crticising dubious charity - but then revel in the Tories getting in.

I think theres some "deserving poor/disabled" sentiment going on.

I'm a cynical **** though.

Do you think it's fair that this guy gets a huge sum of cash and the homeless guy gets leftover chips if he's lucky?

Should the young lad be a higher priority for our charitable donations?

wtf does "fair" have to do with it? One was in a televised accident for all to see, the other has a story unkown. If there hadn't been cameras at Donnington maybe he would get less (note that he hasn't asked for anything) and if the Glasgow guy happened to have someone nearby when his incident happened he might have got more. Thems the breaks.

Likewise with your second stupid question. An incident that has a high impact story and wide coverage is obviously going to do better than someone who has none of this.

I wonder if you'd be such an arse about this if it was a jnr XC racer, getting 'some' coverage and a background you can't necessarily assume?

EDIT: this is all meant to be thought provoking in case someone doesn't like it.

Molgrips, Im rather perplexed by how some of the right wingers like neal get in a huff about crticising dubious charity - but then revel in the Tories getting in.

You will have to show your working there I'm afraid, as your conclusions are very dubious.

1. I'm not in a huff.
2. I've not mentioned anything about dubious charity, or my thoughts either way.
3. I'm not remotely right wing
4. I'm not aware that I've ever mentioned Tories, or my thoughts regarding them "getting in"

Other than all that though, wow, you were spot on 🙄

Thems the breaks

And with that, all is lost.

EDIT actually.. what do you think my original motiviation would be for the first post? Interested.

Just seemed like you were being a dick.

Hardly rare for people to be attention seekers on the internet, taking an alternative stance just for the sake of it.

All the manic "thought provocation" posts since have been a great cover up though, keep it up 😉

Blimey, some tempers on here today.

Just seemed like you were being a dick.

Why would I want to do that? Is that likely given that I spent most of my time on these argument threads trying nicely to persuade people not to be dicks?

When reading internet forums, imagine we are all sitting in a room, face to face, and there is no threatening body language or angry faces and people are smiling and relaxed. It really helps.

When reading internet forums, imagine we are all sitting in a room, face to face, and there is no threatening body language or angry faces and people are smiling and relaxed. It really helps.

Ok. I'll give that a go, *closes eyes and pictures the scene*

look at this poor lad, lost both his legs in a car accident!

Better than a head injury and being a dribbling vegetable. Better than quite a few things actually.

No. Sorry.

Still sounds like a dickish thing to say.

Giving money is always an odd thing.
- There will be people donating here while in a few weeks voting in a Tory government who are trying to take away anything they can from poverty level disabled people.
- There will be people donating that are very rich and avoid paying taxes that would be used to pay towards benefits for many disabled peoples.

Guessing they are not thinking of that at the time...

Still sounds like a dickish thing to say.

Then I apologise.