We have the odd thing here or there that is US sourced (ye olde worlde tape recorders on board satellites is one). So the americans don't necessarily use metric in space (ISS they do, but elsewhere, possibly not).
All the figures are in imperial... pressures in PSI, tension in lb-f, tape length in feet, travel speed in inches per second.
tbh, it's no big deal... everything has upper and lower limits and expected values, and there's really no point converting back to units that Europeans understand or can conceptualise.
Sure if I was designing it now, it would be in metric, although these days that's all obsolete tech now anyway.
The metric system's the work of the devil! My car does 40 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it.
I'll continue to measure bikes and rides using whichever system is more flattering though.
depending on which "cup" you're using
Yes but it's US recipes that use cups, so there is only one US cup yes? Certainly only one in common use. And no-one ever has this problem in the US when cooking.
I once worked with a woman who utterly refused to use the metric system which caused a few issues in a packaging company.
She also refused to drive or even get in a car and rode to work on a horse.
I liked her a lot.
The metric system requires an extra conversion due to the conversion from newtons to pascals,
I don't see the problem - pounds per square inch is the same as Pascals ie newtons per square meter.
pascal is so small you end up with massive strings of zeros
Er that's why we have multipliers, k, M, G etc. If you have too many zeros just use kPa, that's what everyone else does. I didn't just go on a 20,000m bike ride, for instance, and I don't weigh 87,000g. Well I do, but I don't talk about it.
The really nice thing about metric measurements is that they are all derived from other things, and there are only two arbitrary things in it - the metre and the kilogramme. Everything else is based on real world phenomenon and these two things so scentific formulae become much easier!
And no-one ever has this problem in the US when cooking.
They don't have a problem with their date format either, and that's bloody stupid as well.
And no-one ever has this problem in the US when cooking.
Similarly, no-one in the rest of the world has a problem cooking with metric measurements.
No-one's mentioned temperature yet. What the f is Gas mark 5 ?
And isn't Celsius just a tad more useful than Fahrenheit ?
Apropos:
I had major problems with my liquid helium plant, but it's nearly OK now.
when you are dealing with pressures up to 20,000 psi a pascal is so small you end up with massive strings of zeros
Eh? Surely that's like saying metric is useless at measuring big distances because a metre is too small.
Isn't megapascal or gigapascal the appropriate magnitude?
e.g. [url= http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=20000psi%20in%20pascal ]20,000 psi = 137.9 MPa (megapascals) or 0.1379 GPa (gigapascals)[/url]
And isn't Celsius just a tad more useful than Fahrenheit ?
Not in everyday terms - makes no difference. However in scientific terms they are both useless, hence Kelvin 🙂
Similarly, no-one in the rest of the world has a problem cooking with metric measurements.
No I know, I'm not defending it - I use weights too. I was responding to the poster who said it was confusing because cups are not all the same size. This is not an issue due to a standardized cup used for cooking in the US.
haha! a former colleague, manager, had a previous life as an astro-physicist - lovely guy.
Anyway, his classic memory of mixed and indeed downright weird measurement units was the measurement of heat in outer space - apparently (according to Phil) it was in BTUs (British Thermal Units, about 1000 joules) per cubic megaParsec (which I suspect is quite a large volume...)
Think typical values would be definitely single figures...
I had major problems with my liquid helium plant, but it's nearly OK now.
Brilliant, I'm stealing that.
[i]Not in everyday terms - makes no difference[/i]
I reckon people can relate to frozen water at 0c, boiling at 100c a lot better than they can to the same events in Fahrenheit?
Not really. In the US, everyone knows water freezes at 32 and boils at 212. Not something that really needs 'relating' to.
The really nice thing about metric measurements is that they are all derived from other things, and there are only two arbitrary things in it - the metre and the kilogramme.
Actually...
In the US, everyone knows water freezes at 32 and boils at 212. Not something that really needs 'relating' to.
Okay - off the top of your head what is two-thirds of boiling point in Fahrenheit? 🙂
Obviously you can still work it out, but it is MUCH easier in metric (and thus easier to relate to as a scale).
I think all scales that are in everyday use should start at some seemingly arbitrary number and end at another.
We could have feet starting at -0.15" and ending at 16.73" and being divided into 734 equal points in between everyone could just learn the relationships between them?
What common every day reason would there be for me needing to work that out instantly?
Everyone knows what 70F, 80F, 90F etc feels like in terms of weather or heating; and people set their ovens to whatever it says in the recipe. Any other everyday use for temperature values?
[i]Everyone knows what 70F, 80F, 90F etc feels like in terms of weather or heating[/i]
actually, my kids have no idea. I'm pretty hazy beyond knowing that 90 is a bit too warm and 70 probably 'ok'.
tbh, I know that I set our thermostat to 20c during the winter but no idea what that is in Fahrenheit.
If I'm cooking I set the oven to 180-200c for cooking meat, 220c for roast potatoes and 160c for cakes. Again, no idea what they woudl be in Fahrenheit.
I'm 48, was never taught F at school and have never had any reason to learn the relevant points on it that would be needed for everyday life.
Oh, I do know that 'body' temperature is 96.8F or something - 'cos there was a song about that.
molgrips - MemberEveryone knows what 70F, 80F, 90F etc feels like in terms of weather or heating;
I haven't got the slightest idea. I don't know how many fathoms it is to my office either.
What common every day reason would there be for me needing to work that out instantly?
Well you said people could still "relate" to the Fahrenheit scale despite its arbitrariness. I'm just pointing out that they can't really - they've just remembered a few arbitrary numbers on that arbitrary scale. If you ask them to do very simple maths on it then they struggle*.
I don't have an every day reason for you. But I don't have an every day reason for knowing the freezing/boiling point of water either. It's just not something I use every day. 😀
* (which is oddly contra to a lot of other imperial stuff which usually uses highly composite numbers like 12 to make the maths easier)
they've just remembered a few arbitrary numbers on that arbitrary scale.
That's no different to celcius. I know I need a coat if it's 10C outside, and I don't if it's 20. An American knows the same thing at 50 and mid 60s. There's no rationale to those numbers, they are arbitrary. The boiling and freezing points of water are just arbitrary anyway - why not propane or alcohol or whatever? You're overthinking this!
[i]why not propane or alcohol or whatever[/i]
because *everyone* knows what an ice cube looks like and when a kettle boils?
I don;t know why you're defending Fahrenheit, really - as above, surely we could just as easily use Kelvin as a scale of we all work better with seemingly random numbers for measuring temperature variations?
I'm not defending it, I'm saying that for the everyday person it makes no difference.
what is two-thirds of boiling point in Fahrenheit?
What's 2/3 of boiling point in C? It's not 67... 🙂
[i]I'm saying that for the everyday person it makes no difference. [/i]
So we can stick with celcius like 95% of the world do and everyone's happy 'cos it makes no difference anyway?
[i]What's 2/3 of boiling point in C? It's not 67... [/i]
don't you join in and complicated stuff 🙂 You still need to learn that babies weights are measured in lb's not oz's 😉
What's 2/3 of boiling point in C? It's not 67...
You'd need to tell us the atmospheric pressure before we can answer that one.
Anyway I can't believe this thread is still going. It was one answer to a deliberately provocative set of direct questions posed by the Newsnight interviewer to somehow gauge how aligned Camerons own views are to some stereotypical middle Englander Conservative voter. I can't believe it's actually become a headline. Certainly wasn't being asked to comment on any policy he'd want put in place. Shame to see the Guardian publishing such a misleading piece.
What's 2/3 of boiling point in C? It's not 67...
That sort of depends how you phrase and interpret the question really. 😀
On a scale of (standard) freezing point to boiling point, two-thirds along is 67°C
Everyone knows what 70F, 80F, 90F etc feels like in terms of weather or heating;
I don't, I haven't the faintest clue. Fahrenheit isn't something I was ever taught, ever come across in real life (without an accompanying Celsius measurement, rendering it moot) or ever had any compelling reason to find out about. The only time in my life I've ever needed to know what 'F is, is when discussing the weather with Americans, or doing pub quizzes.
don't you join in and complicated stuff You still need to learn that babies weights are measured in lb's not oz's
I've never understood why people are so keen to know the mass of a newborn; it's not like we're cooking or selling them.
there are only two arbitrary things in it - the metre and the kilogramme
Ahem, I reckon you should stop and think about that statement for a second or two...
Everyone knows what 70F, 80F, 90F etc feels like in terms of weather or heating;
Not a clue here.
Celsius is really easy: -10C is really cold, 0C is freezing, 10C is chilly, 20C is nice, 30C is hot, 40C is really hot, 50C is lie down in the shade.
there are only two arbitrary things in it - the metre and the kilogram
One metre is the length of the path traveled by light in a vacuum in 1?299,792,458 of a second.
One kilogram is the mass of a specific lump of metal, kept in Paris.
Perfectly sensible.
I don't, I haven't the faintest clue
I meant everyone in America.
Newspapers report hot days in Fahrenheit and cold days in Celsius. They say temps soared to 80f but would never say they plummeted to 30f
I've never understood why people are so keen to know the mass of a newborn; it's not like we're cooking or selling them.
Apparently the UK is unusual in Europe for this- everywhere else they ask how long it is.
One kilogram is the mass of a specific lump of metal, kept in Paris.
That is in the process of changing, because they want a constant kilogram, not one that changes (minutely) over time.
Watch the Numberphile video I posted earlier.
Apparently the UK is unusual in Europe for this- everywhere else they ask how long it is.
surely the girth is more of an issue for mum than the length.
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How many of the metric lovers navigate in milliradians rather than degrees?
Degrees (for angles) are a nice example of imperial systems using a [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_highly_composite_number ]Superior Highly Composite Number[/url] to make mental maths easier.
But radians have a simple beauty too, when you introduce Pi.
Everything is better with Pi.
(But yes, you're right, no-one navigates by milliradians, that would be daft)
(Oh and degrees qualify as an [i]accepted unit [/i] for SI angles, so they count as metric 😉 )
Degrees (for angles) are a nice example of imperial systems
was that Imperial Babylon ?
Also in America, people generally don't talk about how far away a place is, instead it's how long it takes to get there.
Using the decimal time system?
"If we leave now we should be there by about 6.90"
was that Imperial Babylon ?
Yeah why not. 🙂 You think the British Empire invented the foot or the yard?
The article that started this discussion is a piece of nonsense but the discussion itself a valid one. As a middle age person I've had a lifetime of translating between various standards and measures but since deciding to embrace metric measurement fully it's all become much simpler.
Imperial measures should be confined to history, look forward not back.
You think the British Empire invented the foot or the yard?
no but at least they are Imperial measurements.
True story: when I was I think nine so mid 80s, we were having lessons on such things as decimal points, and I mused to the chap on my desk that we should have a decimal system of time. Kirsty, who was sat in front of me turned round and said in an exasperated tone, "We do! Digital watches!"
I'd like to bring an added level of geekiness to this, Celsius is no longer relative to water for this very reason. It was only a small change, but it's now defined by the melting points of metals mostly, as they're not dependent on pressure within the accuracy of the experiments (i.e. if you can be bothered controlling pressure accurately the melting point of the metal is accurate, whereas with water if you control the pressure to the same accuracy then the temperature isn't as accurate).You'd need to tell us the atmospheric pressure before we can answer that one.
And linguistically, Centigrade is interesting, because garadians are a unit of angle (hundredth of a right angle), so centigrade is common in a lot of languages as a tenthousandth of a right angle. So by accident we've ended up with called "degrees degrees".
(But yes, you're right, no-one navigates by milliradians, that would be daft)
Hangs head in shame at owning a FB prismatic compass in mils... 😳
I say bring back the slide rule and log tables !
maybe we could re-brand some aspects of imperial as hexadecimal ?
Imperial system didn't work out so well for these guys...
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Don't bring them into it - they can't even get basic parsecs right! 😀
the reason we weigh babies is that any more than 10% of weight loss in the first week is a bad sign, their weight goes slightly down then they start putting it back on
worth pointing out that the NHS use metric measurements of babies weights, it's only the older midwives/health visitors who convert it - and the parents/grandparents who convert to lbs/oz to compare with other baby weights they can remember
I weigh myself (and on the very rare occasions I put the kids on a scale) in KG, I haven't got a scooby about pounds or stone and I do body measurements in cm.
I would be quite happy with buying beer in 500ml glasses, this wouldn't be a difficult thing to do, just the chancellor to enforce it via duty, pubs replace glass on a pretty regular basis.
Fair points on the cost/benefit for kilo's on the roads
Fair points on the cost/benefit for kilo's on the roads
Don't forget that it might lower the cost of new European cars by several pence if they didn't have to produce a special speedo fascia for the UK 😀
Might also help European drivers obey our speed limits...
The French did decimalise time for a while or at least weeks not sure about hours and minutes etc.
An Artillary Captain acquaintance tells me the military still use mils for added accuracy.
My physics teacher once got us to measure velocity in furlongs per fortnight.
(But yes, you're right, no-one navigates by milliradians, that would be daft)
Hangs head in shame at owning a FB prismatic compass in mils...
the reason we weigh babies is that any more than 10% of weight loss in the first week is a bad sign, their weight goes slightly down then they start putting it back on
Thats great but why do people feel the need to shout about it?
anyway metric for the win, and zero points for accuracy in the original post (or 32 in old money)
Don't forget that it might lower the cost of new European cars by several pence if they didn't have to produce a special speedo fascia for the UK
Careful, you'll have us driving on the wrong side of the road with that type of thought!
I would be quite happy with buying beer in 500ml glasses
There's no point. Why not buy them in 568ml glasses? That's a metric measure. There's no need to stop calling them pints, because you don't need to measure them out or interact in any way other than filling it to the top.
In france you can still (as I understand it) buy a pound aka livre of vegetables and similar. You get 500g, but you're allowed to call it a livre.
Re speedos, I once hired a car in the US that had a speedo without units on it, and you pressed a button to switch from kph to mph. Button was near the centre of the dash so endless fun could be had messing with it when the driver wasn't looking.
Always thought the baby weight thing had become a tradition due to a good weight being seen in the past as an indicator of a babies health (or likelihood to survive!)
I would be quite happy with buying beer in 500ml glasses,
The tabloids would explode. "Get your hands off our pints, Pierre!" they'd cry. Or something.
Aside from the fact that it's a smaller measure, can you imagine the British public taking to a system where you could order beer in either halves or quarters? We'd have to introduce the litre stein like the Germans as a third option, and that would get messy.
Always thought the baby weight thing had become a tradition due to a good weight being seen in the past as an indicator of a babies health (or likelihood to survive!)
I always thought it's so other women could wince sympathetically.
I would be quite happy with buying beer in 500ml glasses
Or make it 600ml and then there would (hopefully) be less complaining about being "ripped off" by a move to metric.
But molgrips is right, just mark the pint glass as 568ml and carry on.
Eh? Surely that's like saying metric is useless at measuring big distances because a metre is too small.Isn't megapascal or gigapascal the appropriate magnitude?
Yes, it is, I didn't say it's a big problem, but its a minor pain in the bum if you are wanting to do a quick check with a calculator and a pen because your sizes will be in mm, so your cross sectional areas for stress are in mm^2, your loads will be in kN because a N is too small, your pressures for fluids will usually be in bar, or if not in MPa, your yield stress of the material is in MPa. But you want to punch the numbers into the calculator in m, m^2, N & Pa to minimise the chances of losing track of the decimal point on the answer, so you have a whole lot of extra multiplying up and down by factors of ten on the inputs and the output. Obviously that's not a difficult thing to do and the fact that a MPa is 1N/mm^2 helps but it's just another place that you can make a mistake and get a plausible looking answer that's out by a factor of 10, 100 or 1000. As soon as you are using Mathcad, FEA or similar it's a non-issue, but for that most basic "roughly how big should this part be" check on a pad with a pen, for the kit I design, it's faster in inches, lbs and psi because you don't need to make even those simple conversions. Also a pound force and a pound mass are the same, 1:1, unlike N and kg, which saves a step. Nothing big but it's a little quicker and easier to avoid stupid unit conversion issues introducing an error.
I'm not suggesting that the imperial system is better, in many ways it makes less sense but suggestions that it's useless or difficult for engineering and science are just nonsense.
Scapegoat - Member
An Artillary Captain acquaintance tells me the military still use mils for added accuracy
Not accuracy as such. Any method of angular measurement is as accurate as any other. Mils allow for quick mental arithmetic speeding up artillery aiming.
suggestions that it's useless or difficult for engineering and science are just nonsense.
That depends on what you are actually concerned with. I am talking about very basic engineering and project management. Some examples:
Bar is excellent when dealing with ambient water pressure, 1 bar = 10m.
Also, when calculating quantities of free gas stored at pressure. It becomes a pain with psi and feet.
Fluid quantities - It is easy to visualise 1.0m3 of water which equates to 1 tonne. Try doing that in lbs and gallons.
I except that lot of it comes down to familiarity but for 90% of what I do at work the metric measurements work better.
I except that lot of it comes down to familiarity but for 90% of what I do at work the metric measurements work better.
I think this is at the root of it, which is what I initially suggested. Familiarity is a big part of what is easiest and the other part is that the different systems do suit particular things and it sounds like, for what you do, metric is easier as it would be if I was designing smaller equipment subject to smaller pressures and loads. For the size of kit the oil industry makes, imperial works very neatly and easily. The only thing we do in mm is fabrication drawings because standard steel sections and plate thicknesses are in mm these days, so that's what the fabricators use. The ISO standards quote both systems for standard flange and gasket profiles and pipe for pipelines is till sold and sized in inches.
But molgrips is right, just mark the pint glass as 568ml and carry on.
As we have been doing with milk bottles for decades.