far more than a stupid drug
Easy with the disparaging comments mate.
A less than mature comment there SFB!
There is a hypothesis that people brain chemistry levels follows a normal distribution, so you have those above the norm, ie more content, and those below the norm, ie more susceptible to depression / anxiety.
On top of this baseline level, environmental / lifestyle factors will play a part eg exercise good / unemployment or divorce bad.
If you sit in the middle or just below the Serotonin norm, then therapy will probably help keep you above water, but if you have been born -3 sigma in terms of Serotonin levels, no amount of CBT is going to push you to +1 sigma, it will probably make very little difference and you'll struggle with depression indefinitely.
If someone offers you a pill which move you back up the scale, what's so wrong with that?
After all you don't tell diabetics to MTFU and stop taking insulin?
Easy with the disparaging comments mate.
unless you identify with the drug this is nothing about you!
and a drug cannot think!
simonfbarnes - Member"As for myself, I have decided I'd rather be on ADs indefinitely as I'm a much nicer person on them than off them"
well I would say you are as you want! I'm able to modify my own mood and attitude far more than a stupid drug, with no side effects.
simon - yes some simple CBT worked for you. It doesn't for all people. Drugs are a useful part of the spectrum of treatments for depression. They have a place along with other types of taking therapies and other lifestyle changes.
There are no simplistic answers here or there wouldn't be an epidemic.
A less than mature comment there SFB!
what ? Drugs did me a big disservice so I'm rightly contemptuous of them! Your experience may differ, but I cannot comment on that.
FWIW, I suffered intermittently while at university, and have probably done so at intervals since then.
Based on my limited experience, I'd say awareness is the first step. If you know that you're having a problem, or a particularly difficult spell, then you're in a much better place already, in that you know there ARE steps you can take, if you can get yourself through it.
Second point for me was finding what helps to pull you out of it. That part's more difficult - I'm guessing it's totally different for every person - but it's a case of working out what triggers more positive feelings for you. Riding your bike is probably one of them, but obviously has a high barrier to entry (ie it's a bit of a pain to do when you're really not feeling it). Drinking may seem like the best option, but can too easily go horribly wrong.
Counselling could be a solution too, particularly if it helps you through both the cause and the best answers. Good luck with it - I don't think there's one right answer that works across the board, but like I said, realising there's a problem is a huge first step.
something to feel positive about - a thread on stw with people generally being supportive of each other!
A few have gone through some bad **** and I commend you for keeping going.
I suspect most of society is border line depressed but self medicates with booze, a strategy I would strongly suggest avoiding.
My experience of depression is that I was never sure if I was depressed or not. I wrecked my sleeping patterns, was bulimic, overdosed, emotionally hurt people, and was sometimes violent, but I was never sure if I was depressed or if I was somehow maybe in control and I could just stop if I really wanted to.
Whenever I went to talk to health specialists, I would appear very much in control and it just became a merry-go-round for a few years with me being very upset and not getting any help about it. I tried a mixture of drugs, NHS CBT, and private counselling.
Then I got kicked out of Uni and was told that I wasn't allowed back until I could prove I was healthy (no pressure there then!)
One particular counsellor properly broke me in one of her sessions and that was what finally convinced me that the situation might be more serious than I had first thought - and I eventually managed to get one-to-one excellent counselling that lasted for 18 months or so.
At the moment I feel okay and cope with life. I have no particular strategy apart from trying not to be too hard on myself and keeping active (mentally more than physically), but I couldn't say anything much helped when I was depressed. And certainly activities like biking just annoyed me because I already hated myself and consequently everything I had once enjoyed. It helps that my environment has changed and I have friends who have dealt with their own depression, but again, didn't do much for me until after I had 'recovered'.
I realise that what I've written sounds downbeat and pretty harsh, but that's how I feel when I recall such memories. Having not experienced anyone else's depression I am guessing that everyone has their own strategies and everyone will have their own story. I wish the best to anyone suffering from it, and their loved ones as well.
BruceWee-member In my case I found that fresh air, mountain biking, watching TV, putting up shelves, getting wasted, etc. all worked in the short term (when I was actually doing whatever I was doing) but as soon as I was finished the depression was back straight away but much worse.
simonfbarnes - Member well, I would add drugs to that list of temporary fixes, but perhaps it depends on the personality. I needed something I could DO to fix myself, others might prefer a more passive regimen.
Glad you found something that works for you [i]and[/i] let's you feel superior to others.
If you read my original post you would have noticed that I spent 10 years trying to do things and never formed any permanent attachments just so that I was always had the option of moving to a different country (which I did 4 times in) or changing careers (which I did 6 times).
Also, anti-depressants aren't your only option. In some cases ADs are thought to make depression worse. I'm currently on lamotrigin and it's been incredible. For the first time in ten years I'm genuinely happy and starting to put down roots.
The best way I can describe my experience was that I would suddenly find myself in a different reality. In one I was a very successful professional and a fit, good looking guy who was very sociable and pleasant to be around. In the other you are a liability to everyone round about you and you don't really deserve to live. This could change from day to day which became a trial in itself when the cycles became faster and I wasn't even sure whether I was in a depression, manic or normal phase.
If I was to give anyone advice, it would be to try to find a way to cope yourself but the first time you find yourself having even the faintest thought of ending it all (even if that's just a 'why did I have to be born') then start seeking help straight away.
Drugs did me a big disservice so I'm rightly contemptuous of them
That's not right at all. I don't like olives, but I don't hold them in contempt. A lot of people love them.
Just because something does not work for you does not make it contemptible.
Just because something does not work for you does not make it contemptible.
except that it doesn't matter if I diss inanimate things. They don't care.
I've been thinking about this, and the reason for my strong reaction is that my recovery was based on the development of staunch self reliance. Depression of boring and pointless, so there's no point inflicting the details on anyone else, and learning the simple measures to overcome the distorted thinking involved is a personal effort that no one else can do for you. I wasted years using the drugs which merely postponed recovery 🙁
Although I can believe that there are a few people with serious hormonal imbalances leading to depression, I encounter distorted, negative thinking on a daily basis, and find it frustrating that a kind of victim culture allows people to persist in helplessness unnecessarily!
except that it doesn't matter if I diss inanimate things. They don't care.
No but it's not hard to see that disparaging something that someone else considers important is potentially insulting to that person...
and find it frustrating that a kind of victim culture allows people to persist in helplessness unnecessarily
That's one side of it. There is another side though, as detailed above.
This is a sensitive area, so be careful with your size 13s.
SFB - do yourself and others a favour and leave it alone
Your understanding of depression is far from the truth and your dismissal of drugs is simply wrong and very damaging. Please drop it.
RE read my posts above. Depression is complex and multi factorial and no one answer suits all.
No but it's not hard to see that disparaging something that someone else considers important is potentially insulting to that person
distorted thinking. CBT teaches you such interpretations are pointless 🙂
This is a sensitive area, so be careful with your size 13s.
exactly wrong. The "sensitivity" is a fundamental part of the problem. If you feel guilty for relying on a drug you should give yourself a break. The stuff I say is about me and doesn't reflect on anyone else. That's how people are.
what ? Drugs did me a big disservice so I'm rightly contemptuous of them! Your experience may differ, but I cannot comment on that.
but just because they didn't work for you doesn't mean they don't for everyone. For a lot of people the drugs are exactly what they need to ge them in the right state of mind for the cbt or other counselling to work effectively - that's exactly what they did for me. Without the drugs first I just wouldn't have been able to get my head around the CBT at all.
SFB - you are being very disparaging about others, you are being very dismissive of other approaches. You are giving bad and wrong advice based on a totally false premise and a huge lack of understanding
Not all depression is what you had, CBT does not work for all.
Prozac, with other things, worked for me.
It was also excellent at reducing the anxiety I was suffering from and was slowly eating into my self-belief, which was not a pleasant thing to go through.
However, as shown in this thread mental illnesses are deeply personal things and as per other things in life what may work for one person will not work for other.
When my GP first prescribed Prozac for me I googled it and read some scary things and was nervous about taking it, but it really did work.
I know what sensitive subject this is and though not a sufferer I have been very close to several people who are or have been, including my future wife. This was an interview I found whilst researching the effects of SSRI drugs and though it may be of interest to this thread.
[url= http://www.naturalnews.com/011353_bad_medicine_psychiatric_drug.html ]Bad Medicine.[/url]
I think I understand SFBs approach... is it about turning down your ability to be offended or outraged or uncomfortable when faced with situations/people that might make you feel offended/outraged/uncomfortable?
A bit of turning down your empathy volume switch?
I can see how that would help with regard to inter-personal relationships, and by extension, with regard to your relationship with yourself.
distorted thinking. CBT teaches you such interpretations are pointless
Er, it's not distorted thinking, it's how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is.
People's deep emotions are a sensitive area, that's a fact I'm afraid. You don't understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel.
The stuff I say is about me and doesn't reflect on anyone else
Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!
I think I understand SFBs approach... is it about turning down your ability to be offended or outraged or uncomfortable when faced with situations/people that might make you feel offended/outraged/uncomfortable?
exactly. So long as you remain "sensitive" you allow yourself to be hurt by things which need not. If someone hits you, that hurts. If someone slags you off, it's just their opinion. They're entitled to it, but you don't have to accept it. Likewise, people think so differently, it's impossible to predict how they'll respond to whatever you do or say, so don't bother. By all means apologise if they claim to have been upset, but realise that this emotional hurt is also a prime tool of manipulation: "Don't do X or you'll hurt me" is essentially a power play. Don't buy into that crap.
This doesn't mean abandoning empathy or compassion, just not going overboard with trying to conform to the expectations of others which don't fit your own mindset and preferences.
Sorry I'm late (no change there, then). Thanks to most for helpful input, and to one contributor in particular for recent advice, which fitted exactly. Personally I'd rather get by without medication, since it's outside things giving me trouble, but it means that I'm dependent on friends and family. They've all been understanding and supportive. My GP, though, wanted to start me immediately on medication. Personally I felt I needed to know more about the problem first.
I'm in Wessex if anyone wants a therapeutic pootle, with cake.
A very close friend of mine did something very bad last week and is now on strong medication and under constant watch. The surprising thing about this is it came from nowhere, without warning and this person is always upbeat, happy and the life and soul. There is nothing going on like money trouble or family issues and this person looks to have absolutly no reason for doing what they did.
I am completely baffled and just can't get my head around it. I can only assume that something in this persons chemistry went haywire and am grateful that medication exsists to help.
Er, it's not distorted thinking, it's how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is.
yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it's not your responsibility.
People's deep emotions are a sensitive area, that's a fact I'm afraid. You don't understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel.
emotions are meaningless, they are what fish use instead of thinking. We can think and we choose our emotions. Choosing happy ones is better.
Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!
I only take responsibility for my own emotional wellbeing. It's a personal journey for all of us. I'm just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.
but you need to learn how others feel.
you can never know this, as you only have what they tell you, and they may not be truthful in order to get you to do what they want instead, or they may allow themselves to hurt in order to get attention and support. Essentially, it doesn't matter what people feel, it only matters what they do.
[i]This doesn't mean abandoning empathy or compassion, just not going overboard with trying to conform to the expectations of others which don't fit your own mindset and preferences.[/i]
I get it....
It's what I do at work; I have developed an ability to deal with the most upsetting, difficult situations, fraught with emotion, sadness and so on in a 'professional' way. It's about being able to distance yourself from stuff so you can still function at a high level.
Interesting...
It's not a lack of empathy, it's not about 'not caring', it's about the preservation of self.
yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it's not your responsibility.
It's normal behaviour. You have a responsibility to be nice to others in a social situation. You can't just act badly and then tell them it's their fault for being offended.
emotions are meaningless
In techno geek land maybe, but not out here. I don't think I want to live in your ideal emotionless world!
I'm just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.
And being an arse at the same time. Great.
It's not a lack of empathy, it's not about 'not caring', it's about the preservation of self.
yes, good. We're all aware to some extent of how others think and react, and it's important not to fall into the trap of going along with that to the point where you do things you don't want to conform with their expectations. Do things for your own reasons, not other people's. That way you'll be happier and immune to manipulation
Simon please
simonfbarnes - Member"Er, it's not distorted thinking, it's how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is."
yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it's not your responsibility.
Totally wrong attitude. Judgemental and blaming.
"People's deep emotions are a sensitive area, that's a fact I'm afraid. You don't understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel".emotions are meaningless, they are what fish use instead of thinking. We can think and we choose our emotions. Choosing happy ones is better.
Emotions are not meaningless. They are a part of who we are You clearly have just learnt to shut down yours. Its not healthy.
Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!I only take responsibility for my own emotional wellbeing. It's a personal journey for all of us. I'm just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.
Actually you have said simple CBT is the only way and if you use drugs you are wrong.
"but you need to learn how others feel".you can never know this, as you only have what they tell you, and they may not be truthful in order to get you to do what they want instead, or they may allow themselves to hurt in order to get attention and support. Essentially, it doesn't matter what people feel, it only matters what they do.
Thats a very cruel attitude and will make it very difficult for you to form emotional bonds and meaningful relationships
Simon - you have your experiences. However they are not the only answer and emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach.
Do things for your own reasons, not other people's. That way you'll be happier and immune to manipulation
Clearly. But that doesn't then extend to mouthing off without any care to how others may think.
There's a middle ground between being a doormat and being a self centred c*ck.
I don't think I want to live in your ideal emotionless world!
I didn't say that. Emotions are fun! Just don't impute meaning to them. You choose how you feel, so choose carefully.
And being an arse at the same time. Great.
but that's your opinion. I don't mind if you think that because it makes no difference to me. I'm being forceful because I think it's important to avoid passivity to depression.
A very close friend of mine did something very bad last week and is now on strong medication and under constant watch. The surprising thing about this is it came from nowhere, without warning and this person is always upbeat, happy and the life and soul. There is nothing going on like money trouble or family issues and this person looks to have absolutly no reason for doing what they did.I am completely baffled and just can't get my head around it. I can only assume that something in this persons chemistry went haywire and am grateful that medication exisits to help.
I can actually understand this. It's very much like the situation I was in but luckily for me my mask started to slip as I was getting really desperate and some close friends of mine were able to drag me into the doctor's office. I'm not very good at hiding my emotions but I was able to mask the depression by being unusually cranky and aggressive. I think it confused people because I was normally very easy to get along with but I don't think it ever came across as depression. It could be your friend being upbeat all the time was his way of dealing with it. The thing to remember is that he's still exactly the same person you've always liked, he just has an illness that he's been concealing from everyone probably to save them worrying.
Totally wrong attitude. Judgemental and blaming.
followed by...
emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach
Lets just keep it all positive eh?
. But that doesn't then extend to mouthing off without any care to how others may think.
it's impossible to know what others think. You might be able to understand their claims but they may not know all that clearly. Seeing what they do is the best indicator. If they choose to say they feel bad because of what you've said, you can take it under advisement.
Good call Torminalis
I am just frustrated by Barnes attitude here. I'll butt out now .
Zulu - email me if you want a little non-judgemental discussion of what your options are and what you can expect from them.
However they are not the only answer and emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach.
ha ha, I was crippied by unbounded emotion before, that's what depression is! Now I have them more or less under control (though as it happens I'm allowing myself to fall in love with a rather unsuitable subject), I feel healed, not crippled, and my relationships with other people work much better.
I'm not saying don't have emotions, and that would be impossible anyway (unless heavily drugged), just don't pretend they are in control.
it's impossible to know what others think
Ah, we are getting somewhere 🙂
If they choose to say they feel bad because of what you've said, you can take it under advisement.
Emotions are not a choice for everyone mate. You may feel that they are for you, which may have helped you with your own problems, but it's not like that for everyone.
I am just frustrated by Barnes attitude here.
TJ, think about that. What benefit do you derive by allowing yourself to feel frustrated? By all means disagree, but instead of running away wailing, come up with a plausible counter argument. You'll feel better.
But Barnes, TJ is not you. Your mind does not work the same as everyone else's. You have to understand that.
Emotions are not a choice for everyone mate.
this is an invitation to victimhood or worse "I can't help it!" or the awful "You made me do it!". I dont feel I can control my emotions (though once upon I time I thought the idea was ridiculous), I know it through observation.
SFB - your basic premises are wrong and you have no insight into this
It would take far more than a few forum posts to go into this and your certainty about depression and its causes, treatments and cures is not helpful at all.
My frustration comes from the fact you are giving very bad advice, you are stating as certainties absolute falsehoods and you attitudes are damaging. As yo have no insight there is no way of debating with you.
I wish you would leave the thread before you do any more harm.
You have to understand that.
of course I don't. I have no intention of buying into misery. I don't know how my mind works or anyone else's, and I don't think anyone does. It's at least a workable hypothesis that they do in fact all work much the same, like digestion and the bloodstream.
this is an invitation to victimhood
Not necessarily.
You can feel them if you can learn to cope with them. Denial won't work for everyone. Likewise, what happens when we each feel those emotions is different.
Which goes back to what I said originally - we are all very different. So coming on saying 'x is stupid' is not only counter-productive, it's also inaccurate.
I wish you would leave the thread before you do any more harm.
harm ? Prompting people to think cannot be harmful, certainly no more than encouraging them into victimhood. If I've been wrong, tell me how, otherwise it's just a pointless smokescreen.
you are stating as certainties absolute falsehoods
I'm not sure one can have certainty about anything other than existing. I don't believe myself to be lying and what I'm saying is based on my personal recovery from depression. What falsehoods ?
Denial won't work for everyone.
indeed not, and I'm not suggesting it. When I say I'm happy, I'm, not denying my inherent tendency to gloom, I'm just not allowing to to take hold.
Simon, when I was coping I used to use the same arguments you are using here. It allowed me to feel superior to other people because I was managing on my own and didn't need any drugs and I was in control of my emotions. In fact, I told myself if I ever ended up taking drugs I might as well just cut off my own cock. I didn't feel the need to tell everyone else about how superior I was, particularly people who are struggling to find their own way of coping.
Good luck.
Prompting people to think cannot be harmful
It can! Depending on WHAT you are prompting them to think. History is full of examples of this.
If I've been wrong, tell me how
We're trying really hard to do just that!
Listen - you don't need to change how you think about yourself - that's all fair enough. But really, for the sake of all the rest of us, just modify your language a bit.
Try using a few of these phrases:
"In my experience..."
"Speaking personally..."
"I found that..."
"What worked for me was..."
"I can't speak for anyone else, but...."
And so on. Sometimes it really is that simple!
So coming on saying 'x is stupid' is not only counter-productive, it's also inaccurate.
I still think I am factually right. A drug cannot think and is therefore stupid, and moreover, the mechanisms by which antidepressants work are at best poorly understood and barely better than placebos in many cases - because the way you think matters.
Try using a few of these phrases:
I'm saving time and assuming people can do that for themselves 🙂
Depending on WHAT you are prompting them to think
which I've already said is unknowable ? Think for yourself, don't let anyone else do it for you!
It allowed me to feel superior to other people
it's not about that. A superior method of overcoming depression perhaps. I took drugs for years - merely a holding pattern. I fixed myself in weeks with active CBT methods. I think that's worth shouting about. I know it doesn't work for some, but given its simplicity it's worth trying.
Thats the problem SFB - you think you are right. I know you are not. Its a far to simplistic interpretation you place in order to validate your own faulty thinking.
Because you have no insight you cannot enter debate. You have no understanding of how the drugs work.
I find it interesting that both TJ and BruceWee have used manipulative ploys. TJ attempting to guilt trip me into withdrawing for vaguely hinted at falsehoods and BW suggesting I'm merely showing off. These are cheap rhetorical tricks.
Thats the problem SFB - you think you are right. I know you are not
ah well, faced with papal infallibility, there is no counterargument...
Because you have no insight you cannot enter debate. You have no understanding of how the drugs work.
but (a) you cannot tell how much "insight" I have (if such a thing exists) (b) I suspect no one knows how the drugs work, if they work. They may have theories.
again, it's merely a ploy to assert that I lack some vital McGuffin to allow me to take part in the discussion. I don't know what your insights are and you don't know mine.
Having suffered from depression and anxiety pretty much all my life, so the best part of 50 odd years, I’m quite interested to understand this comment by the ubiquitous sfb
simonfbarnes - Member
I suffered it for 30 odd years and fixed myself in 2 weeks after reading "Feeling Good" by David Burns. Best £5 I ever spent
Personally I’ve recently completed CBT and am still taking the “happy pills” and have honestly never been better in my life. I cannot however claim to be cured/fixed, merely in a more manageable place, In fact I’d go as far to say that I’m not even sure that a cure is possible. So I’d love to hear more about sfb’s road to Damascus moment.
For the record, and out of respect to the OP my issues stem from both parents suffering from deep depression, which in turn lead to parental neglect and what would now be considered as abuse. This really came to a head for me in the 90’s when in short order I lost both parents, my job three times in pretty horrendous circumstances during a 5 year spell, which all then led to alcohol abuse, and a personal meltdown of fairly epic proportions. Like I said I am now much better than at any point in my personal history, so I would advise that sometimes you need to crash and burn to enable a resurrection to take place, and that there is definitely light in that tunnel somewhere if you allow it to seep in.
Thing is I wouldnt bother having an argument with TJ about depression and mental health issues (despite some family experience) because I do not have sufficient technical knowledge to back up the veracity of my comments. On the other hand TJ's more than happy to wade into economic arguments similarly ill equipped...
So maybe TJ should accept SFB's existence on the thread with gritted teeth and argue through it. It's usually what I have to do around you TJ 😉
There is nothing more depressing than reading threads like this. FACT!
because I do not have sufficient technical knowledge to back up the veracity of my comments.
but isn't this too close to home to resort to "technical knowledge" ? Health workers have been doing this for millennia, while attaching leeches and applying whatever fashionable poisons fall to hand, or administering huge electric shocks to the brain "because it works sometimes, we don't know why". Don't allow yourself to be bamboozled.
Children please cease and desist....
This is not the place to have a bun fight.
Depression is a very serious matter, and its affects will be different for different people. Peoples responses to drugs/cbt/other therapies will be different too. I do not plan to air my experiences on a public forum as what "worked" (or didn't work as the case may be) for me will not be relevant to the OP. What worked or didn't work for you will probably not be relevant to the OP either, so there is little point in arguing as to who/what/where/why is best so please stop.
I agree to a point (my opinion of "health visitors" and midwives is similarly cynical) but mental health is a heavily research area (there's money to be made in them thar pills) and there's massive swathes of empirical, double-blind trial, statistical results to back up the efficacy of some treatments. Those treatments act on pathways in such a technical manner that I havent studied sufficiently to be able to criticise.
Some of the negative side effects of depression treatments I am familiar with I dislike intensely, but I couldnt give you more than a bit of rhetoric as to why.
I'm with Barnes on this one, when it comes to drugs.
Anti-depressants etc are given out far too freely by irresponsible (probably overworked) GPs who simply don't have the resources available to give their patients the treatment they really need. 'Here, here's some Citalopram. Be happy'.
That's like giving someone an aspirin for the pain when they've got a gaping wound. It may temporarily alleviate the pain a bit, but it doesn't deal with the problem directly and effectively.
I've taken all sorts of drugs over the years, both recreational and prescribed. By far the worst drugs I've ever taken have been some prescribed medication for depression. I've ended up in hospital strapped to a bed, hallucinating and being absolutely terrified as the result of certain drugs having an adverse effect on my psychological state. No Acid trip has been anywhere near as frightening.
The sad truth is, is that Mental Illness has never had the kind of funding and resources to be able to effectively treat most people who suffer. As I've said earlier, drugs are far cheaper than intensive long-term one to one counselling. Trouble is, a person needs to be deemed pretty ill, or a danger to themselves and/or others, before they will get proper treatment.
Nah, I'm with Barnes all the way. I'm very angry that the underlying causes of my illness were constantly ignored, and I was fobbed off with various pills and left to deal with it myself. Thankfully now I'm receiving the treatment I really should have had years ago. It's very painful and distressing a times, but also amazingly liberating. As though I can now start to feel less constrained by things that bound me, which I couldn't even understand. And the whole process has helped train myself, in being able to recognise and therefore deal with issues when they arise, much more effectively. Makes me feel stronger and less helpless, and ultimately happier.
No drugs can get you to that stage. They can only help, if used very carefully, with a programme of other therapy. Using them on their own is never going to be that effective in the long run. 'Cos when the drugs wear off, the demons are still there.
So lay off Barnes. Because you know what? Maybe, just maybe, he's talking sense.
OK SFB. This is all a bit glib and clearly I only have your postings to go on
Insight - the ability to see within yourself and to understand your own illness. Clearly lacking in you in my professional opinion. As you have no insight you cannot appreciate where you are wrong.
You say "fixed" with CBT. Actually from my perspective you have learnt a coping mechanism at the expense of your ability to feel emotions and to have any empathy at all. You clearly have some sociopathic / personality disorder traits. CBT appeals to someone who sees the world in mechanistic ways and wants a prescriptive solution.
To suggest to vulnerable people that what you have done is the only and best "cure" is very damaging
To suggest that someone in your state is cured is wrong
Your faith in CBT is wrong - it is one tool amongst many and in some circumstances is very helpful. In others it is not. Your dismissal of drugs is wrong - like CBT they are a very useful tool and have completely revolutionised the treatment of depression allowing deep intractable depressions to be successfully treated
the key think here is that you cannot possibly discuss this with any clarity because of your lack of insight and you false premises that your working from, thus your interventions are not helpful but infact postivily harmful
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, couple this with your lack of insight and your crippled emotional state and its very bad advice you give indeed.
I have my own experience of the black dog. What helped me was a combination of ADs and CBT which seems to be a pretty common theme on this thread. I hope that no-one who has been or still is depressed would wish it on anybody else but reading this thread does show how many people do suffer form it and that sufferers are not unique in being depressed even if every case is different. I accept that what worked for me won't necessarily work for anyone else and it may be that you need to go through a number of strategies before finding your answer. Sharing our experiences can be helpful but TJ and SFB having a go at each other doesn't help anybody. How about calling a truce guys and walking away from the thread? I don't think that you will convince each other that your position is correct so maybe better just to withdraw.
TJ attempting to guilt trip me into withdrawing for vaguely hinted at falsehoods
He's not... He's disagreeing with you in the most direct way possible.
So Barnes - if I punch you in the face, can I rightly say 'stop whining, it's your fault for feeling pain?'
I'm worried because SFB is using arguments that I used myself for a long time and if I was reading them a few years ago it would have just reinforced my prejudices against drugs and seeking medical help in general. If anyone else is in the same position as I was I don't think it would help them.
SFB, I can't help but think you are showing off when you start saying things like 'superior methods'. I'm not saying you're method is wrong, right, inferior, or superior. I'm just saying that [i]you[/i] can't say the same thing either to anyone.
(there's money to be made in them thar pills)
yes quite, which is why heavy scepticism is appropriate. Drugs make money. Self help cost me £5 it total, oh, and another £2 for an exercise book to write down my feelings and rebuttals.
Some of the negative side effects of depression treatments I am familiar with I dislike intensely
I had dry mouth, inability to pee, inability to come, and various other embarrassing and uncomfortable things I've gladly now forgotten 🙁
I'm with Barnes on this one, when it comes to drugs.
I'm not arguing in any way about drugs.
What I have a problem with is his attitude towards how he communicates with others.
SFB, I can't help but think you are showing off when you start saying things like 'superior methods'.
I just picked up the word you used. I have nothing to gain from this. I hate to see people suffer unnecessarily, particularly when I was able to overcome it so easily once the right method was shown to me. This doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else, any more than 3 decades of suffering made me any worse. I freely admit I gave the book to my son and he found it useless - it does depend on one's mindset.
BruceWee - MemberI'm worried because SFB is using arguments that I used myself for a long time and if I was reading them a few years ago it would have just reinforced my prejudices against drugs and seeking medical help in general. If anyone else is in the same position as I was I don't think it would help them.
Why is why I am arguing with him - dangerous viewpoint and a calssic bit of denial / lack of insight
cu dubh - Member........... but TJ and SFB having a go at each other doesn't help anybody. How about calling a truce guys and walking away from the thread? I don't think that you will convince each other that your position is correct so maybe better just to withdraw.
I hope I have shown others that if not SFB that his attitudes are harmful and not to be discouraged from seeking treatment by them.
With that - I will bow out.
What I have a problem with is his attitude towards how he communicates with others.
I'm sure my attitudes are of no consequence whatever 🙂 Didn't you say people are different ?
What I have a problem with is his attitude towards how he communicates with others.
I don't. I think Barnes is honest and open about his opinions and feelings, more so that most others on here. I quite like his frank and clinical approach; because there comes a time when you have to face reality, and reality ain't always very nice.
What I can't stand is to much of the 'there there, have a cup of tea' type of approach. Because it doesn't work when what's needed is some pretty invasive and often painful 'surgery'. Whilst I think it's lovely that there are lots of kind words and sympathy on this thread, they alone aren't going to solve all problems. Sometimes you've got to be tough. In this regard, I feel that Simon's approach is as valid as any other.
I'm always suspicious of sympathy in this, as I feel it tends to encourage dependency and selfindulgence. While I hate seeing people suffer, the knowledge that so much of it is effectively self inflicted makes me impatient.
I don't. I think Barnes is honest and open about his opinions and feelings, more so that most others on here. I quite like his frank and clinical approach; because there comes a time when you have to face reality, and reality ain't always very nice.What I can't stand is to much of the 'there there, have a cup of tea' type of approach. Because it doesn't work when what's needed is some pretty invasive and often painful 'surgery'. Whilst I think it's lovely that there are lots of kind words and sympathy on this thread, they alone aren't going to solve all problems. Sometimes you've got to be tough. In this regard, I feel that Simon's approach is as valid as any other.
+ Several.
I'm sure my attitudes are of no consequence whatever
They wouldn't be if you didn't start dispensing advice...
Elfin, you misunderstand. What he's saying is that it doesn't matter if what he says is offensive - it's the listener's fault for being offensive.
I just don't agree. I don't walk down the road swinging my arms all around me and then telling people it's their fault for being in my way... We all have to get along (or bugger off entirely, which isn't nice), and we each have an obligation to a) try not to offend/insult/upset others and b) to try and see the best in what others have said so we don't get overly upset etc.
In other words, human interaction is a TWO way street.
Mentioned it a few pages ago but has anyone read The Flying Scotsman by Graeme Obree or the film for that matter?
try not to offend/insult/upset others
Conversely, sometimes the very best way to help some people is to offend/insult/upset people. As long as it is done with love and not with spite. I do not believe SFB is spiteful, I just think he understands that it is each persons own responsibility to manage their own behaviour.
You certainly won't be rid of him all the while you engage him and it is to the detriment of what was looking like a very positive and interesting thread until people started taking issue with the experiences and statements of others. Discuss the topic, not each other. There are a million other threads to belittle each other on.
Seen the film, truly gash IMO.
As an aside, is there any thread that can't be turned into a battle between some EPIC INTERNET BATTLE LEGENDS?
Insight - the ability to see within yourself and to understand your own illness
I'm interested to know how you can know better than me what I know about myself ? Illness ? I'd describe it as a melancholy and selfdestructive tendency. I can still feel it tugging at me most days, but I just set it aside. Describing it as an illness sounds too much like some external or inescapable agency, when in fact I know it's just a useless part of myself, a mental appendix.
Actually from my perspective you have learnt a coping mechanism at the expense of your ability to feel emotions and to have any empathy at all
this is funny. You assert "I'm right and you're wrong", and then go on to completly misconstrue me. Yes I have a method to cope with negativism, by directing my thoughts positively, so I can choose my emotional gamut and revel in it. I said above I'm falling in love inadvisedly, and I've been wracked with sobs, exultant, distracted etc etc whilst at the same time being fully aware that I'm choosing to indulge these feelings, and am doing so for the excitement. I also understand about the way other people feel, but I don't allow them to use their bad feelings to advantage.
Elfin, you misunderstand. What he's saying is that it doesn't matter if what he says is offensive - it's the listener's fault for being offensive.
No, I think [i]you[/i] misunderstand. Simon isn't trying to offend anyone, merely express his own views on the subject. Views I happen to largely agree with, actually. As possibly others do to. Why shouldn't he express them, just because someone else [i]might[/i] be offended?
Seriously, if you do suffer from Depression/MI, then you need to be prepared to be shocked and offended at times, because the truth isn't this lovely nice happy thing you'd like it to be. Successful therapy often involves stirring up those feelings of anger, sadness, horror and revulsion, because you need to understand what creates them within yourself.
Seen the film, truly gash IMO.
How come? I thought it was good but then I'd read the book so was maybe filling in some of the blanks that weren't in the film.
They wouldn't be if you didn't start dispensing advice...
baby/bathwater
the content of my argument is distinct from my method of expression
SFB. Refresh my memory, you are a Tory voter right?
I hope I have shown others that if not SFB that his attitudes are harmful and not to be discouraged from seeking treatment by them.
I never said to avoid treatment. By all means get treated. Just don't necessarily insist on a passive chemical pathway. I have to say the CBT I eventually got on the NHS was far more vague than what I got from a book, but it may work fine for some.