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Hydrogen is a dead end for personal cars. It is just another way to store electricity, but is a less efficient way to do so and comes with all sorts of issues around generating it, transporting it, storing it and dispensing it. 15kWh of electricity in a BEV will get you about 60 miles. In a hydrogen car it'll get you closer to 20.
It is obviously extremely flammable as shown above, needs storing and dispensing at ridiculously high pressures, and just wants to escape in to space all the time. And the cars still need batteries in them. And who wants to be tied to visiting a specific forecourt run by a fuel company when every building with an electricity supply is capable of charging a car?
On explosion - yes agree Hydrogen not ideal although petrol is also pretty volatile. Fair points around efficiency too, however arguably it's less critical when the energy is from a renewable source. Re batteries I just question where there all the materials are going to come from.... where there's a will and $$$ I'm sure sources will be found, but it might not be pretty. Hopefully there will be a breakthrough in battery technology...
On explosion – yes agree Hydrogen not ideal although petrol is also pretty volatile
The Hindenburg was actually the canvas burning, the hydrogen is the big fireball above it (which is relatively fine, nowhere near people).
Petrol, LPG etc tend to collect at low points however and therefore kill you to death when they burn.
Hydrogen is simultaneously ludicrously expensive to produce, yet considered a waste product to be burnt at refineries because it's such a PITA to transport/store and therefor has little commercial value. Unless you can develop a way of moving sensible quantities of it around the country it's a non starter. You can't for example put it in something resembling a standard road tanker. It looks something more like this:
You can’t for example put it in something resembling a standard road tanker.
Unless you liquify it
simon_g
Subscriber
I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) – they’re doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won’t discharge past – so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.
Would you have had to buy an inverter or did they supply one? I presume you have a Nissan then?
The Hindenburg was actually the canvas burning, the hydrogen is the big fireball above it
So it wasn’t electric discharge causing a spark igniting the hydrogen?
which is relatively fine, nowhere near people
I’m not sure a fireball crashing to the ground can be described as fine.
I mean 13 passengers and 23 crew were killed.
But apart from that, it was fine.
Let’s not get hung up on the ~100mile range hatchbacks like the Zoe and leaf. You wouldn’t discredit ICE’s based on the range of a BMW C1 would you?
Lets say you bought a Tesla
Zoé 50: 395km WLTP 25 640e fast charge with battery on the road
Tesla Model 3 standard plus: 409km WLTP 43 600e (say 44 500e on the road)
B.A.Nana > Octopus have a car leasing arm, so the deal was to lease a new Nissan Leaf at a discounted rate and the V2G Chademo charger and install included. You just give both the car and charger back at the end.
~20 million ~100kWh batteries distributed around the country should about cover it.
All plugged in? Sounds a bit hopes and dreams more than anything solidly reliable.
I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) – they’re doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won’t discharge past – so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.
Ah, so there is an incentive. Thanks for that.
Specially designed fuel cells may well make that safe, but you have to still have to get past that image problem.
Never did the image problem of petrochemicals any harm.
So yeah, we were talking about image problems?
we’re heading towards a future where “plan B” which is not electric cars, but you will have to change your lifestyle because living a long way from work in a Scottish winter perhaps is the bit that’s unsustainable.
You mean to say the solution isn't just replacing every car like for like? That maybe we need drastic changes to our lifestyles that are, frankly unsustainable? I mean, it's not like I haven't been saying this from the very beginning...
You mean to say the solution isn’t just replacing every car like for like? That maybe we need drastic changes to our lifestyles that are, frankly unsustainable? I mean, it’s not like I haven’t been saying this from the very beginning…
But what have you been doing, Squirrelking? Have you put your money and lifestyle wher your mouth is? Is your lifestyle sustainable?
Unlimited travel is unsustainable..
*WE* (that’s every single one of us humans) need to stop rushing around the planet as though we own it.
Switching from petrol/diesel to electric may reduce our co2 output a little, (or, at least, move the emissions somewhere else, like a power station) but it’s nowhere near enough.
I wondered how long it would take for this to become a discussion about the sustainability of electric cars. @squirrelking has it right - the unsustainable part is expecting the majority of journeys to take place inside your own sealed, multi-ton metal box. Going electric has at best marginal benefits, depending on your priorities. EVs require a lot more energy to manufacture (mostly the batteries, but modern electronics and semiconductors also require an enormous amount of energy to manufacture), as well as all the associated chargers and other electronic support hardware. This largely offsets any C02 emission decrease from using grid power, instead of a small ICE, to power your car. The materials used in an EV are scarce, currently non-renewable, and located in underdeveloped parts of the world where the sudden inflow of money and investment removes many concerns about environmental destruction. IMHO, the main benefit (which I really appreciate as a cycle commuter) is externalising environmental pollution to the countries where EVs are manufactured and later disposed of.
But what have you been doing, Squirrelking? Have you put your money and lifestyle wher your mouth is? Is your lifestyle sustainable?
I'm doing my best but frankly don't have the financial resources available to go all singing all dancing. Sometimes getting a legislative shove doesn't hurt either.
Both our cars are over 10 years old and regularly serviced, I see no reason why they couldn't last a similar amount of time. One does get regular use on a 50 odd mile round trip, we know that's problematic and have discussed the possibility of moving closer but financial and social considerations have to be made. Also the fact that right now it would mean longer, more regular trips by car to work.
I try to cycle locally and to work where possible (but when it's lashing down with a 30+ mph headwind and 50+ gusts then I do take the easy option). My leisure cycling is now being planned around the local area or where I can get to via public transport, luckily I can get trains at a special rate otherwise that would just make it easier and cheaper to drive. All our bikes are old, built mainly of second hand parts (barring my daughters) and I tend to hold on to bikes for a ling time.
The house has been insulated since we got it with a modern combi installed but really has a long way to go and I know gas isn't the answer.
Give me a wad of money and of course I could make significant improvements but we're in our 30s with a young child and a mortgage.
I'm not claiming to be perfect or even close to the poster child for sustainability, nor have I ever claimed to be. What I do understand though is that as twrch and martymac say claiming electric cars are a silver bullet is just greenwashing the entire issue.
I mean 13 passengers and 23 crew were killed.
But apart from that, it was fine.
Titanic was on water and hit a lump of frozen water...that wasn't exactly safe, was it.
Lots of people are over-thinking this, EVs are just a 20-30 year stop-gap before teleporters come online, have faith.
All good Sqirrelking and running old cars into the ground is the best CO2 solution unless that running into the ground is more than 80 000km. Because that's the break even on CO2 for a lot of electric cars (this depends on the elctricity energy mix of the area you live in). What people should avoid is buying a new ICE car.
Always makes me lauch when people say "but extracting rare earth elements is polluting"
Yes, yes it is, but:
1) Those elements are not actually "used up" by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used. If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled! (nobody throws away a gold watch, everybody throws away a plastic one.....)
2) Do they assume that extracting hydrocarbon fuels is clean? Lets face it, the environmental damage done by the extraction of oil and coal will outweigh that done by any other industry for thousands of years!
The haterz have me convinced.
EVs are completely pointless and we should stick with fossil fuels until we've burnt through every last drop of, I'm sure we'll figure out an alternative when it happens...unless we've cooked or drowned to death due to climate change before then.
we should stick with fossil fuels until we’ve burnt through every last drop of, I’m sure we’ll figure out an alternative when it happens
I can see amphibious cars making a comeback...
<classy comment>
oh and Maddie.....Mmmmmmmm
</classy comment>
Those elements are not actually “used up” by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used
Some, yes. Not all, yet.
If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled! (nobody throws away a gold watch
Dirty and expensive don't usually go together. Clean and expensive do. You'd be amazed what people throw out.
I've been waiting since I was young for someone to realize that life size scalextric was the answer to all our problems.
Timing might be the issue with sustainability...
If we were a couple of years further down the road with vehicles that can, and the insight to, use electric vehicle batteries as household renewable power storage units and allow homes to pull power from these vehicles as well as charge them, then maybe the government decisions to keep investing in fossil fuel based infrastructure would have been different and we would have had a tipping point towards green tech.
E.g. Canada purchased transmountain oil pipeline for $4.5bn ($12bn expansion). BC continues to push forwards with a $13bn mega dam aimed at delivering power to the LNG industry. Feds continue to green light $7bn gas pipeline to BC coast for LNG export. Feds poised to expand alberta oilsands production with no sign of enforcing any existing cleanups.
If that money could have been spent implementing microgrids allowing neighborhoods to generate renewable energy, store it in their vehicles in addition to grid distribution, there'd be no need for these huge greenhouse gas emitting projects.
Aging batteries from early gen EVs downcycled into home/microgrid storage, could even use motors in reverse as off grid generators etc.
Titanic was on water and hit a lump of frozen water…that wasn’t exactly safe, was it.
Even worse the ice contained hydrogen.
Dihydrogen monoxide was it? Dangerous shit.
Wasn't around during the Hindenburg. Was it the hydrogen catching fire or the people hitting the floor that was the dangerous part ?
Deadly stuff yet they it’s contained in bottled water.
Relatively speaking it was electrical spark.
nobody throws away a gold watch
Are "gold watches" actually a thing? I always assumed they were a metaphor. Are we throwing away metaphors now? What will we do when the supply is exhausted?
Apparently now those foolish ignorant idiots at the royal mail, the largest fleet operators in Europe, have gone and committed to buying electric vans and charging infrastructure. LOL 🤦 Why can't they catch a bus or train to deliver post into the middle of nowhere?
Apparently now those foolish ignorant idiots at the royal mail, the largest fleet operators in Europe, have gone and committed to buying electric vans
Yes however that means **** all. Example is I have a client who has insisted to his forklift supplier tha tthey will not accept anything but electric forklift. Even their 18tonnerz must be electric. Currently there isn't an outdoor rated* electric 18tonne forklift.
Client insists.
It's all show . So I wouldn't be swayed by a company making a status play.
* For UK climate
Always makes me lauch when people say “but extracting rare earth elements is polluting”
Yes, yes it is, but:
1) Those elements are not actually “used up” by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used. If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled! (nobody throws away a gold watch, everybody throws away a plastic one…..)
2) Do they assume that extracting hydrocarbon fuels is clean? Lets face it, the environmental damage done by the extraction of oil and coal will outweigh that done by any other industry for thousands of years!
Wouldn't it be better if we found a better way full stop? One that doesn't involve depleting resources just so everyone can have their own personal car?
Modal shift is needed. EV's make sense in larger towns and cities. Except they don't because it's the right place for affordable mass transit. Get the low hanging fruit out the way then deal with the sticks. But people don't want these solutions because that means giving up a lifestyle (it's also horrifically expensive in the UK)
Apparently now those foolish ignorant idiots at the royal mail, the largest fleet operators in Europe, have gone and committed to buying electric vans and charging infrastructure. LOL 🤦 Why can’t they catch a bus or train to deliver post into the middle of nowhere?
See above.
Also, anyone who drives a "lifestyle vehicle" should have it crushed. Preferably with them inside it. See how they like their wee metal box then.[/trollface]
Example is I have a client who has insisted to his forklift supplier tha tthey will not accept anything but electric forklift.
Actually Trail_rat you've prompted me (and I note your anecdote is outside so different), but the amount of black dust (gas oil/red diesel particulates) that we get thickly caked on boxes that I've presumed can only have come from diesel forklifts in warehouses is really concerning for warehouse pickers and forklift drivers. Genuinely, I've always wondered why it hasn't been long ago flagged as a major H&S issue. The black particulate dust is often there caked on the top of our delivered boxes for everyone to see. I've actually never been to a warehouse, so maybe in an enclosed environment they all do wear some sort of dust mask around diesel forklifts these days, I dunno.
I very much doubt any dust will be from exhaust particulate, warehouse trucks will be lpg or electric but doubtful diesel would be allowed to spend any great time indoors.
Before I continue, I should probably summarise my actual opinion: Radical changes are needed to make our civilisation sustainable. Buying "green" replacements for our existing lifestyle choices is not even close to what is needed. The primary change is a huge reduction in energy usage - right now, we have unprecedented access to cheap energy (from hydrocarbons), and use huge amounts for transport, heating, and in the form of embodied energy in the products we buy (the embodied energy of a new laptop is equivalent to 45 gallons of oil, or 1.6MWh). This is why most of my arguments centre around energy usage - depending if you think nuclear has a place in a sustainable future, there will simply be a lot less energy available after a switch to renewable sources.
80 000km. Because that’s the break even on CO2 for a lot of electric cars
My point exactly - you have to drive at least 1/3rd of an EVs life before you break even in CO2 emissions from manufacturing, and only then do you start emitting less (but still a lot!) than an ICE car - and all of this is highly dependent on your grid supply. This is a marginal gain, and doesn't even take into account the disposal and recycling costs (which, if it were actually done, would be very energy-intensive). If I cycle to work, I use 25x less energy. Now that's a proper gain.
Those elements are not actually “used up” by the vehicle, and hence can be recycled and re-used. If it proves expensive and dirty to extract those elements, then that actually makes it more likely that they will be re-cycled!
Maybe, but if it's currently cheaper (and therefore, likely less energy-intensive) to mine these minerals, then the cost of EVs (in both manufacturing energy and money) will go up once we switch to fully recycling old EVs.
Do they assume that extracting hydrocarbon fuels is clean? Lets face it, the environmental damage done by the extraction of oil and coal will outweigh that done by any other industry for thousands of years!
I'm amazed you think that is true. On this list of the ten most polluted areas in the world, hydrocarbons only hit number 9: http://www.atchuup.com/most-toxic-places-on-the-planet/ Ironically, e-waste processing is at number 1.
If it is so important to switch to EVs to reduce CO2 emissions, why isn't there a similar enthusiasm to switch to electric heating and hot water? It's exactly the same argument.
I'm not saying it's all bad, I'm pointing out it is not as simple as "buy an EV to help save the plant". IMHO there is too much influence from politicians trying to get on board the green train, and from industry, to sell more stuff.
Agree twrch, it’s a fallacy that the carbon output from the universal strategies of economic growth through consumption and travel can be made carbon neutral with eg electric cars, banning plastic straws, using paper bags and dubious offsetting schemes. The real challenge is mass acceptance of an increasingly low carbon lifestyle which will probably only be possible through financial disincentives which is a worry as are usually very unpopular with the public and therefore with politicians.
I do have an EV and plan to have it for years and realise the significant limitations. More importantly am trying to address my carbon-rich lifestyle and reduce my carbon footprint as much as possible.
but the amount of black dust (gas oil/red diesel particulates) that we get thickly caked on boxes that I’ve presumed can only have come from diesel forklifts in warehouses is really concerning
Is this presumption based on any kind of....y'know fact?