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I wanted to get a Tesla 3 long range for my next company car, but couldn’t get the numbers to work to convince my boss. £200 a month extra lease cost over current car, which outweighed the monthly saving in fuel.
I wanted to get a Tesla 3 long range for my next company car, but couldn’t get the numbers to work to convince my boss. £200 a month extra lease cost over current car, which outweighed the monthly saving in fuel.
If you have to pay for fuel on personal miles, What about your BIK saving from 1 April as well, how much would that save you per month personally in total? Is it worth paying the diff to become a Tesla Tosser? (BillOddie's phrase on page 1, not mine)
I was told that garages don't like you using your mobile in case you drop it and create a spark, nothing to do with the device being safe, this may of course be nonsense.
We don’t do a lot of local miles but we do long trips with bikes so it had to be a Tesla Model 3 with towbar for bike rack. I had to accept it was going to cost more than owning a 10 year old Fiat Doblo but I couldn’t be the person on a bike who hates being overtaken by diesel fume spewing cars and also drive a diesel.
A few years ago I did a trip in Nissan eNV200 so I thought I was prepared for charging (ie an inevitable nightmare involving frequent calls to helplines to reboot barely used chargers etc). You have to give it to Tesla though, their network is flawless - the car tells you when and where to charge, how many stalls are available and how long you need to charge for. I’m in awe - I’ve never actually liked owning a car but I’m embarrassed to say that I love my Tesla. We’ve done two 1,000 mile trips to France for about £60 each charge costs so a bit of the monthly payment is offset.
As for access to charging networks - I see both sides. Tesla charging is super fast and well set up so that as soon as you’re full you get a text to move your car - plus you get charged if you leave it. No one else does that at the moment hence plug in hybrids camping out on EV charge points all day long. There will have to be some planning around fast charge points (which actually take a few hours to charge) where you might not want to bump people off them (no shopping centre wants to encourage people to leave rapidly for instance) and rapid chargers (less than an hour to fill) where you do need to enforce moving on so that no one turning up with a low battery is stuck waiting an indeterminate length of time.
Right now we’ve just got a 3 pin plug at home and the local Lidl has a rapid podpoint if we’re ever in a hurry. By the summer we’ll have a Zappi so we can charge from our solar.
Drac
Subscriber
SUV style may be the answer I’m trying to resist the E-Tron 50 offer that popped up this week, it’s affordable on the deal they’re offering but delivery a little too early for me.
The e-tron is everything that's wrong with EVs. 2.7 tonnes and a 71kWh battery to do 186 miles in favourable conditions.
The e-tron is everything that’s wrong with EVs. 2.7 tonnes and a 71kWh battery to do 186 miles in favourable conditions.
Well not really it’s just one that is an SUV style there are others which are city cars, family hatchbacks and saloons. I’m not sure an example of one is all that is wrong with them.
You have to give it to Tesla though, their network is flawless
Tesla do seem to have realised the importance of the network that other ICE manufacturers haven't.
Strikes me as as a very Apple-style pay a premium but "It Just Works" approach.
I was struck by the same thought when I went to the Tesla shop in Edinburgh. It wasn't a garage or a showroom: it was much more like an Apple Store. Shiny, minimalist, brightly lit store, sat between other normal shops, with two Teslas and a Powerwall on display, demo videos playing on the walls and "Geniuses" answering questions.
If I had money to invest I'd be chucking it their way!
Still with the obsession about charging points. Who does more than 150-200 miles a day regularly without returning to home?
You sir?
Get a diesel.
The rest of us?
An EV suits, unless you can’t charge at home. In which case get a little petrol car, an EV would be a faff.
(I’d like an estate too, mind you, or even better, a pickup that doesn’t look like it’s straight out of an 80’s arcade game)
This is a lot of pages about a 12 mile commute. Did anyone point out that an ebike would be the best bet for such a journey? 🙂
@GrahamS
A mate with a Leaf confirms the ChargeYourCar thing in that car park, though he thinks there is a PAYG option in the app
Still with the obsession about charging points. Who does more than 150-200 miles a day regularly without returning to home?
You sir?
Get a diesel.
The rest of us?
Exactly. The people who 'need' to drive 200 miles a day must be in the <1% range. Majority of people can just charge overnight every few days (realise those in blocks of flats have a different challenge but again that is not the majority of people)
Majority of people can just charge overnight every few days
Just plug it in whenever you get home. Timer set for stupid cheap rate midnight - 4am-ish. Job jobbed; it’s really not a hard concept. Who would need a 500 mile fuel tank if you had a petrol station (or even a refinery, as an analogy for those lucky enough to have solar panels) on your drive?
How many people need 7 days battery life on their mobiles ‘just in case they go on holiday and there are no convenient plugs?’
Just plug it in whenever you get home. Timer set for stupid cheap rate midnight – 4am-ish. Job jobbed;
These are my Agile prices tonight, less than 1ppkwh 02.00-05.30. I even get paid to use lecky at one point
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B.A.Nana
Member
I wanted to get a Tesla 3 long range for my next company car, but couldn’t get the numbers to work to convince my boss. £200 a month extra lease cost over current car, which outweighed the monthly saving in fuel.
If you have to pay for fuel on personal miles, What about your BIK saving from 1 April as well, how much would that save you per month personally in total? Is it worth paying the diff to become a Tesla Tosser? (BillOddie’s phrase on page 1, not mine)
Yes I’ve thought about salary sacrifice to cover the extra cost, though the Tesla 3 is a bit of a compromise in other areas like size and range.
My experience is the current charging infrastructure is too hit and miss and ranges not great enough to be reliant on just a non-Tesla EV at the moment. Non-Tesla EVs are great if your travelling circumstances are just right. A 40kwh Zoe does work perfectly for my commute - a 60 mile round trip which gives me spare capacity if I need it that day (I rarely have to use the car during my working day). I can stick it on the free 7kw charger at the park and ride (which I use to avoid the exorbitant car parking charges and the fight for any spaces at work and I really enjoy the short bike ride across the city everyday). The only problem is occasionally other EVs get on the chargers first but I’ve got more than enough spare capacity for that not to be a problem to get home and I just plug it in overnight there on the granny cable.
For longer trips I really have to have an ICE but am now starting to think about at a Tesla 3 to replace that later in the year if the money works for me personally. Their charging infrastructure being the game changer to get over the mess of the rest of the charging infrastructure. Makes me wince at the thought of taking the Zoe on a really long journey - would take a lot of planning, coffee breaks and crossing of fingers.
I can stick it on the free 7kw charger at the park and ride (which I use to avoid the exorbitant car parking charges and the fight for any spaces at work and I really enjoy the short bike ride across the city everyday). The only problem is occasionally other EVs get on the chargers first but I’ve got more than enough spare capacity for that not to be a problem to get home and I just plug it in overnight there on the granny cable.
This is a major problem for EV owners trying to do long distances - local EV drivers squatting the charge point for the free parking and or free electricity. It would be better if the parking were still payable and the electricity cost at least 10% more than charging at home in the day. The parking place also needs to be the most inconveniently placed parking space to discourage ICE vehicle owners from squatting it.
But try taking you Zoé on a long trip, Devbrix. That way you'll never again squatt a charge point you don't strcitly need.
Totally agree Edukator, that’s my point really, the non-Tesla charging network is a shambles and you can only make it work if your particular travel circumstances fit.
I lusted after an i3s but have gone for a Kia eNiro through the salary sacrifice scheme.
Looking to switch to a more appropriate electricity tariff.
Anything better than Octopus Go?
If not, does anyone have a referral code to share?
We'll each get £50 credit...
@Dangerboy. I am on Octopus Go since I got an EV. Very good experience and I like what Octopus do as a business, seems very forward looking.
I can provide a referral code if I can work out how the PM system works..
Dave
I lusted after an i3s but have gone for a Kia eNiro
You won't regret the extra 140km and extra space.
Dangerboy, Octopus Agile is worth considering, depends how nerdy you want to get. For it to be really effective with your car you need an Ohme or zappi EV charger (might be others) or an Ohme cable with an untethered EV charger.
As an EV owner I feel I should comment on a few points raised on this thread...
(apologies, I haven't read every post)
Charging speed
Try timing yourself from the moment you park to when you get back to your car next time you stop at a motorway services on a long journey for a rest, a pee, to buy a pint of milk and drink a cuppa. You might be surprised. For me this stop is enough to add 50 odd miles to my battery easily and if I need more it's more than taken up by wolfing down a quick lunch, or spending a few minutes catching up with a few emails. My view: it's an inconvenience if you want EVs to be an inconvenience, or if you go out of range very often. With modest forward planning it's of little concern. Little enough forward planning you can do it on the way.
You start every day full so remember that this event only happens on the days you go out of range, which are fairly rare for most. And the charge you need to add is just enough to finish your day. Rarely near a full charge. The time to a full charge is not a number that affects your life on a daily basis, unless you bought the wrong car or can't charge at home.
Overall I reckon I use public charge points for about the same amount of time in the year as I spent before at petrol stations filling up. Maybe a bit more but not much. However that time is spent working, or having a cuppa or shopping or walking the dog, not in the cold with a smelly diesel pump in my hand. I know what I'd rather be doing...
I don't have a dedicated charge point at home, although I intend to get one, and this doesn't matter that much. A 3 pin plug is slow though, at 10a (NB a UK 3 pin plug won't take a sustained 13a, car chargers are set to 10a for 3 pin). 16a "commando" blue socket better, 32a better still, but any of them will charge most cars overnight, when you didn't want to drive the car anyway.
That Harry video is mostly quite fair IMO, but his signing off comparison of miles added per hour charging vs miles added per hour filling a conventional car is idiotic, unless either he can fill his range rover up while he's asleep, or he drives his car so constantly that he never sleeps.
Overall, a little mindset shift you need on a long journey is that you don't tend to run the battery low then charge it up. What you tend to do is plug your car in because you've stopped. You charge at your breaks, rather than breaking for a charge. For this reason (and others) the fear of a diversion getting you in a mess is not a practical reality unless you want to make a point of it.
Charging plug compatibility
Different manufacturers using different sockets is technically true but has ceased to be an issue of much note, as I understand it. Vast majority of cars use type 2 and ccs nowadays, and I've yet to see a charge location that doesn't suit these. Regardless, you'd use zapmap or similar to choose where to charge, and that gives you all the info you need.
Published range
The way I drive it my car doesn't give me the published range either. Of course it bloody doesn't. Just like none of my previous cars gave the published mpg from the same test. The difference in percentage terms is similar, perhaps a bit better with the EV. Winter is materially worse than summer, which was true with internal combustion too, but less noticeable.
Using the heater sensibly, ie by someone who grasps what a thermostat does, isn't a big deal. If you're really worried about this warm your car for 10 mins while it's plugged in before the long journey, which will ease the effect on range.
Surprise surprise, not all EVs are equal. Tarring them all with that Harry fellow's 440wh/mile at 74mph is like saying all internal combustion engine cars drink fuel like a range rover. Don't spend your life moving air out the way with an SUV if you want sensible energy consumption. Charging speed is if course affected the same - if you car does less miles per kwh, it'll charge at less miles per minute.
Public charging access
Different charge points use different methods of paying. App, membership, card or contactless payment. This is a bit of a pain. Roll on the day they all see the light and take contactless payment and charge per kwh. And there are more of them, and they're faster. Some of the faster ones are silly money, but still not petrol money and you'll use them hardly ever, so they probably won't affect your overall costs materially.
So this provision is a bit crap in the UK (except tesla), and I don't think Harry is wrong on it, but you probably won't use it much. If you will, then as things stand it could cause you a problem, but hopefully this will improve soon. Buy a car with enough range to cover your normal day, and some.
Having off street parking...
... affects all the above convenience points. Obviously. You need to be able to charge at home overnight somehow or you will be inconvenienced in a fairly big way. Good on you if you still go for an EV of course, but it takes away the convenience benefit.
Assuming you have off street parking you also won't be interested in public charge points near home of course.
Emissions
Add up the emissions associated with extracting, refining, transporting and burning fuel on one side vs lifecycle uk electricity emissions plus grid and charging losses on the other side. Incorporate manufacturing emissions as well. You'll probably conclude a good 3x the emissions for internal combustion over electric for an otherwise similar car over its life. On this alone I felt I had a personal responsibility, when the time came to replace my car, not to buy another internal combustion engine.
Costs
Yes, it's more like for like, but at least add up all the costs, not just the purchase price. And this point is really about the new car buyer, because 2nd hand EVs mean early tech and small volumes. That'll change. How much more expensive can you handle for a significant (some would say massive) reduction in environmental impact? If your answer is nil, you're basically Donald Trump 😉
I don’t have a dedicated charge point at home, although I intend to get one, and this doesn’t matter that much. A 3 pin plug is slow though, at 10a (NB a UK 3 pin plug won’t take a sustained 13a, car chargers are set to 10a for 3 pin). 16a “commando” blue socket better, 32a better still, but any of them will charge most cars overnight, when you didn’t want to drive the car anyway.
The charge time for the Zoé at 10A on a normal socket is 29h 34mins, that's hardly overnight and its a small car. A 16A greenup is the minimum you need at home, and unless you have a public charger that is always free just up the road, a 7kW a very good idea..
Charging at 10A is a really bad idea especially in hot weather, so much goes into battery cooling a smaller proportion gets into the battery. I know this from experience after charging at 10A in hot weather - A heat pump that takes about 1kW halves a 2kW charge rate but only reduces a 7kW charge rate by 1/7.
The charge time for the Zoé at 10A on a normal socket is 29h 34mins, that’s hardly overnight and its a small car. A 16A greenup is the minimum you need at home, and unless you have a public charger that is always free just up the road, a 7kW a very good idea..
Fair enough. I suppose what I meant was that even on 10A you can add 100 miles overnight, which does most people's normal day or tops up a moderately discharged battery, which is probably the most common situation at the end of the day. When I got my car I already had a 16a socket and it wasn't til I'd done 10k miles that I got round to getting an adapter to fit my 32a (7kw) socket. At that point I pretty much forgot about charging time at home, but most days I was already timing charge for midnight to 7am for min grid carbon intensity on 16a, so I was getting my daily usage out of modest charging kit/time.
Also notable that charging losses are higher on lower currents. 29.5 hours means nearly 30% charging losses for a 50kwh zoe if my maths is right. My experience was nowhere near as bad but on 32a I get c.10%.
Edit: seen your extra paragraph now. I haven't experienced the cooling issue to any great extent - how big a deal is it in the UK climate?
We have got a eGolf on order through the work lease scheme. There was a special offer on just before Xmas so with the BIK changes it will only cost us £200 a month. My wife will use it for day to day work commute, school run etc and then will be the family car at the weekend.
We will use it for visiting family. We will get to Yorkshire on a single charge and going down to Kent will require some planning. We can prob stop at Milton Keynes Coachway as they have 10 Type 2 chargers and its bang on half way (90 miles) so leaves some spare range in case of any issues. Services don't seem as well equipped with 2 Type 2 chargers and then one can be damaged so would rather find alternatives if possible.
At the moment we don't plan to use it for family holidays more because cottages and rentals etc don't always have parking close by and it would be difficult to park it overnight.
29.5h at 10A is 64.9kWH. It's slightly less as the power drawn drops a little at he end of the charge. Do the calcualtion 12.9/64.9 and it's a 20% charging loss on a 52kWh battery which still isn't good and worse than at higher charge rates. In hot weather it's worse again.
So I'm encouraging people to use higher charge rates, preferably in low tarif periods because that's best for their wallet and the environment. Avoid 10A charging if you can.
Great post @luket, thanks.
Small point about the "Emissions" section: to be truly fair you have to consider the lifetime emissions which includes the manufacturing and mining the lithium etc.
I think it is less clear cut when you do that, especially given that, as you pointed out, the 2nd hand EVs are not very attractive so they have quite a short product life compared to ICE.
That will change in time of course, the technology and production is still new and developing quickly. I do believe that we need to support it now in order to secure that future investment.
In hot weather it’s worse again.
Possibly another good reason to charge overnight then? It's colder, the tariffs are lower, and you are helping to smooth out demand on the grid thus avoiding the "dirty" electricity that gets cranked up as demand peaks.
I think it is less clear cut when you do that, especially given that, as you pointed out, the 2nd hand EVs are not very attractive so they have quite a short product life compared to ICE.
They'll be attractive to somebody as a second car shopping trolley, but one thing you can be absolutely certain about is the batteries won't go to landfill. They either end up on someones garage wall as home battery storage (solar storage or cheap rates from the grid) or in someones car EV conversion project.
There was another report on TV about battery recycling. There are now two French companies specialising in recycling lithium batteries. At present they're just dealing with batteries from crashed cars and a few failed batteries so they are looking forward to the first cars to reach the end of their normal life. They have an investment programme to match predicted recycling needs. Given the high value of the recycled materials it's a profitable business model.
What ever you do don't damage the battery. Just had a chat a work and to fit a new battery into our PHEV 4x4 that got damaged, £6500.
Difference being they will most likely be intrinsically safe.
Just like mobiles.
Er, no, they most certainly aren't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_safety
Intrinsically safe mobiles aren't sold in the consumer market, you're talking about the best part of £600 for a basic phone and several thousand for a smart phone. As an aside I was referring to car charger and accessories vs fixed pumping equipment. Particularly where people (being generally rubbish) don't have the training or good sense to inspect the equipment before use and are happy to live with compromised sockets and cables. Last I checked nobody plugged their phone in at the pump.
Anyway, I did my own reading and, surprise, car charging equipment typically isn't ATEX rated, nor are electric vehicles at the consumer level. Doubtful though that just driving one across a forecourt would be a risk.
EV charging equipment should not be installed within hazardous zones of the forecourt as defined by the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 due to the risk of an ignition source. This includes the charging cable and any vehicle when charging at the full extent of the charging cable.
Luket, good post, cheers!
w two French companies specialising in recycling lithium batteries.
Are they actually able to reclaim the lithium for re-use in batteries, which requires > 95% purity iirc? Last I heard a university researcher in the US was the first to achieve that but it required a great deal of manual work , so not remotely scalable or cost effective never mind profitable. Until we can genuinely recycle the lithium into new batteries, the pollution problems associated with mining it will persist.
Most lithium 'recycling' isnt. It is just less damaging disposal.
Robbo, eGolf uses CCS for rapid charging if you're filtering on zapmap or similar.
MK coachway is brilliant if it falls at a good point in your journey, reduces risk of not being able to charge (broken/busy) to virtually zero and even then there are 4x Ionity chargers alongside as a pricey fallback option.
I pretty much plan around Polar and Instavolt chargers rather than ecotricity ones in the services, loads are very close to motorway junctions so no big detours needed.
The recycling does indeed require a lot of manual work, chromolyolly. They showed guys with impressive safety equipment manually pulling the cells apart. The claim for the lithium battery pilot plant (because they don't have enough batteries to justify the investment needed to scale up yet) is that they recover/recycle a high percentage of lithium which is then used to make new batteries. It's not totally closed circuit with the remainder of the lithium in a no-toxic residue.
From an article which refers to the same companies:
En France, Bolloré travaille sur une technologie de récupération du lithium de ses batteries lithium-metal-polymère sur son site d'Ergué-Gabéric (Finistère). Euro Dieuze Industrie (groupe Veolia) s'affirme capable de recycler 90% de la masse d'une batterie lithium-ion à Dieuze (Moselle). Quant à Snam, il a développé une unité de reconstruction qui produit des batteries neuves issues à 80% de composants recyclés à Viviez, dans l'Aveyron.
and with Google translate:
In France, Bolloré is working on a technology to recover lithium from its lithium-metal-polymer batteries at its site in Ergué-Gabéric (Finistère). Euro Dieuze Industrie (Veolia group) claims to be able to recycle 90% of the mass of a lithium-ion battery in Dieuze (Moselle). As for Snam, it has developed a reconstruction unit that produces new batteries made from 80% recycled components in Viviez, in Aveyron.
Oh it's the Veolia group. That makes sense. I think they are actually using the method the guy in the US designed. Afiak, they can't consistently recover the litium in a pure enough form to re use. The best they can do at the moment is sufficiently pure to use as a precursor in battery production. It's only viable because of the massive subsidies. It's a long way from profitable. Unfortunately, it is still way cheaper to mine it in some seriously environmentally ways. I think the Veolia pilot plant could do a max of 6000 batteries a year under current conditions.
I think when they refer to recovering 'the mass' of the battery, that's largely the Cobalt, maganese etc, ( which has been commercially viable for a while now) plus some lithium, so it's a bit misleading.
Just heard on radio that all ICE and hybrid sales to end 2035. That’s very soon!
I like electric, but it’s not there yet. They chew battery at any decent speed, and the range still isn’t there for long distances (charging) unless your idea of a nice weekend away is going to a big city rather than some where nice in the country side
Just heard on radio that all ICE and hybrid sales to end 2035. That’s very soon!
I like electric, but it’s not there yet. They chew battery at any decent speed, and the range still isn’t there for long distances (charging)
Ambitious, but doable I think. A leaf won't get from London to the Highlands, and neither would my bladder in one stint! But the bigger the battery the faster they can charge (in miles, they'll even out in percentage terms once everyone's tech matures). So once there's an Electric Mondeo/Vectra/Passat to compete with Tesla that'll be a tipping point. Because if you are driving from London to Peebles for the weekend (390 miles) then you only really need to stop for a top up of what, 10-15 minutes to get that 30% extra? Not even enough time to inhale gregs breakfast bake* on the M6 Toll services
unless your idea of a nice weekend away is going to a big city rather than some where nice in the country side
There's also an element of behavioral change. Burning 650 miles worth of diesel (a tesla model 3 charge there and back) for leisure isn't a sustainable activity.
*foodstuff example deliberately chosen as I'm sure someone must be working on a way to recover the waste heat of nuclear fusion that must surely be keeping the contents superheated.
Electric Passat will be on sale late next year with a bit of luck
They chew battery at any decent speed, and the range still isn’t there for long distances (charging) unless your idea of a nice weekend away is going to a big city rather than some where nice in the country side
Well that depends now really doesn’t it. The highlands is closer for me then London and I could do it in pretty much one charge, so factor in a stop for refreshments and toilets with a top up charge chucked in and it’s easily doable. The countryside even has electricity these days it’s marvellous.
Electric Passat will be on sale late next year with a bit of luck
Yea, but it won't be perfect, so you'll still get people saying "but I can't tow my space shuttle for the 3 week family trip to Cape Canaveral on a single charge".
Give it another model cycle and after 6 years of resentfully paying £70 to fill up their panzerwagen with smelly diesel in a freezing November wind whilst the teslarati sip espressos in Costa whilst the car fills itself up for £10 and things will change. It'll have a few miles more range, it'll charge a few minutes quicker and they can climb down from their soap box jerry can and tell us they've timed it just right.
The countryside even has electricity these days it’s marvellous.
Local electrons for local people.
Nice little beginners intro to home chargers on the fullycharged show:
That new date mean I should be able to only have to buy 1 more ICE'd car before then, 1 less than I thought. My journey profile isn't typical (long drives to the middle of nowhere, don't commute as I cycle) and as I currently rent (charging banned on my estate for all flats) it's not viable to do home charging so I've got to wait for the lower end BEV's to get a range of around 200. 2035 is ample time for that to be the norm. The current car should last me another 4-5 years, one more after it (most likely a hybrid/range extender version) and it should put me well into the realm of loads of viable electrics on the second-hand market. If the market changes faster than expected I can always extend the life of the current car a few more years if needed and go electric then. The idea of an electric car is appealing but the current options don't quite fit in with my journey profile, home circumstances or affordability yet, when the switch is well underway I'll be ready to jump.
(charging banned on my estate for all flats)
By who? Housing Association? That seems like a very odd thing to ban, what is their reasoning?
Home charging for people that don't have a driveway or parking spot is definitely a major stumbling point at the moment. It'll be interesting to see if the government have any plans to address that!
Just heard on radio that all ICE and hybrid sales to end 2035. That’s very soon!
15 years of increased electric car development really isn't "very soon". If it was down to me it would be 2025 as 2035 is in the pissing about category. Majority of people could easy make their next purchase an electric car right now and if they don't want to then don't buy a new car. The 5 year period would be to ensure the industry can prepare for the shock to it.