[Closed] Taking Kids on Holiday During Term Time -- New Rules

The only reason you can do it is because others don't. That's not really very fair

Some people thrive on exploiting others sense of fairness.
Or weakness and stupidity, as they usually describe it.

See the recent TV licence thread for more examples.

The only reason you can do it is because others don't. That's not really very fair
Some people thrive on exploiting others sense of fairness.
Or weakness and stupidity, as they usually describe it.
See the recent TV licence thread for more examples.

I wouldn't say that is typical of me Rusty...

True enough Rusty, the rest of us are left feeling like Kants

Perhaps not typical, but it seems to apply in the current situation

RichPenny - Member
What are the stats like though? Is it something that's gone from 1% to 20% over a decade?
With the greatest respect, are you actually qualified to determine what the effects might be? I'm certainly not, which is why I was asking questions about what is behind these developments. I thought Nobbys view was very interesting.

You are right, I am not qualified to assess the impact and Nobby does make some good points.

It's ot so much the impact that this has on your child that is the issue, for me. The issue is more about the principle of children being taken out of school,as the parents choose. School is not an individual activity taking you child out of class will have an effect on classmates.

But the greater point is that the impact is minimal if only a few people behave like this. The only reason you can do it is because others don't. That's not really very fair.

I think if many people decided to do it then it should be looked at again. I don't take advantage of others and fairness is important to me. I don't like the idea of taking opportunities myself that means others are denied. If this would be the case I would reevaluate my position significantly.

But it seems clear that you don't care if the teacher or school are inconvenienced as a result of you wanting to take your children out.
Wheter or not they actaully are inconvenienced or to what extent, might be open to debate, but the point that you don't actually care , is what is damning

I have undertaken my life with consideration towards others. I like to think I have had a positive impact on other people and given more than I've taken. I'm not really sure how by making a choice to take two holidays in term time that I have denied others the same chance.

I have undertaken my life with consideration towards others. I like to think I have had a positive impact on other people and given more than I've taken. I'm not really sure how by making a choice to take two holidays in term time that I have denied others the same chance.

I wouldn't say that is typical of me Rusty...

I didn't say it was......

However

' Since most parents don't take children out of school through choice the potential for disruption is slim.

J

We all do it in certain situations.
This is a pretty obvious example though, isn't it?

I have undertaken my life with consideration towards others.

sorry, non-parent here.

you know the rules when you choose to have children. suck it up or tie a knot in it

would tend to suggest that you are taking advantage of others honesty and sense of fairness to secure a financial advantage for yourself, whist hoping to minimise the disruption to the education of your child.
We all do it in certain situations.
This is a pretty obvious example though, isn't it?

Not sure it is obvious to me - I am not suggesting others should not do it or complaining about the disruption they might or might not cause. I am certainly not looking to financially advantage myself either. If it came to it and only a limited number of people could do it - I would happily draw lots for it or wait our turn.

You keep saying this, why do you make an exception in this particualr case?

Because that is not the way I am perceiving it perhaps?

I have undertaken my life with consideration towards others. I like to think I have had a positive impact on other people and given more than I've taken. I'm not really sure how by making a choice to take two holidays in term time that I have denied others the same chance.

your moral compass is broken

Because that is not the way I am perceiving it perhaps?

But surely not caring if the school and teacher are put to inconvenience is [i]not[/i] living your life with consideration for others?

MrSmith - Member
I have undertaken my life with consideration towards others. I like to think I have had a positive impact on other people and given more than I've taken. I'm not really sure how by making a choice to take two holidays in term time that I have denied others the same chance.
your moral compass is broken

As is your sense of judgement in terms of scale and severity. I hardly think anything I have said here suggests that.

jamj1974 - Member
I am certainly not looking to financially advantage myself either.

ransos - Member
So you're saying that they'll lose out unless they go on holiday in term time? How?

jamj1974 - Member
Go for longer, go for more trips, actually afford to go to Italy for example...

If that's not looking to give yourself a financial advantage, I honestly have no idea what is.

Perhaps not in that para, but you do here

I care not that it may inconvenience the school or the teacher.

Full disclosure

Fundamentally we take our children's education seriously, seriously enough for most of the year that two-weeks abroad will and has not been affected by taking them out over the last two years. I care not that it may inconvenience the school or the teacher. As parents we do many things with the school where we spend our private time helping them. We spend a lot of time and effort supporting our children's learning (including filling gaps left by the professionals). We don't see schools as free child care either. For these reasons I do not see why the school or education authority should interfere with the holiday plans for my family.

[img] [/img]
and while you are enjoying your holiday, this poor kid who was paired with yours to do a project that week will have to do all the work himself, dropping his marks, reducing his ability to trust people and slowing his education down to the extent he doesn't discover the universal cure for cancer but instead goes on a career in IT.

Perhaps not in that para, but you do here
I care not that it may inconvenience the school or the teacher.

Somewhat shamedly I agree with you CharlieMungus. As I said earlier perhaps because I have not been having a positive experience with the head teacher. I was feeling just a little hot headed at that point... Spoken a little too hastily whilst I was annoyed about another school matter to be blatantly honest... Not particularly proud of that statement .

Excellent! What do i win? 🙂

[img] [/img]

and while you are enjoying your holiday, this poor kid who was paired with yours to do a project that week will have to do all the work himself, dropping his marks, reducing his ability to trust people and slowing his education down to the extent he doesn't discover the universal cure for cancer but instead goes on the a career in IT.

Ok, apart from the somewhat fantastical impact you may may have a point on the group project stuff Mike.

Nice profile pic Mr Smith! Didn't realise you were famous...

Charlie you win a meal for two in a top restaurant with me. Not sure you will want to collect that one - bearing in mind your impression of me...

I do a great impression of you!

If that's not looking to give yourself a financial advantage, I honestly have no idea what is.

Looking to spend less without that meaning others spend more as a result of your action is not seeking a financial advantage. So you not buy stuff in sales because others have paid full price. Your definition of financial advantage is decidedly skewed.

CharlieMungus - Member
I do a great impression of you!

I may have given you enough material on one thread for a caricature...

Nice profile pic Mr Smith! Didn't realise you were famous...

not me, i'm not famous enough to have an 8 page thread all about ME 😥

Neither am I - I'm not the OP...

Maybe you should have stopped after your finest contribution to this thread:

jamj1974 - Member
Glitch

Maybe you should have stopped after your finest contribution to this thread:

And taken away everybody else's fun...?

For those wanting to change the school day/term. My wife and I both work in rural-serving secondary schools,my wife especially is missing LOTS of kids this week as it is good harvesting weather. Up her we go back middle of August,back off for "tattie holidays" at end of this week. Of course with the holidays being a week late we also have lots (perhaps 5%)who are on holiday because the October holidays are a week later than usual this year....(Some have informed the school it was their fault for changing the week of the October holidays,which to be fair they did...in 2011) As a rule, it is pointless trying to get folio/NAB work done etc for last two weeks of term,as their is a mindset,I have to say especially of the better-off kid's parents,that last two weeks of term are fair game. When would you like you children tested; after 9 weeks of working on a topic,when the lessons are fresh in their mind,they have the opp to attend study support/chap a teachers door for help,or after they have had a weeks holiday with parents followed by two weeks term holidays?

Regardless of whether he's right or wrong about his rock pools and so on, the polite and dignified manner in which jammasterjay1974 has conducted himself throughout the thread certainly stands out. Perhaps his kids won't turn out to be little brats after all 😉

Nobby not sure how you failed to understand my point about private schools having longer holidays. You raise an interesting point re grammar schools and day length but I'm not sure how appli able tbat would be ina comp. Grammar school kids have better attention spans.
Thers no doubt kids get tired during long terms and later in the day. More hours of schooling a day would only work imo if it was following an extended hour ot two break in the afternoon....not that I want a longer day myself. 7:30 - 5ish plus an hour or so later is more than enough for me.

Looks at 5am spelling and grammer and awaits flaming 😳

Nobby - It clearly says that the decision lies with the head teacher, but the that fine is enforced by the local authority. Only UNAUTHORISED absences will be fined, so it absolutely IS in the hands of the school. If a head teacher authorises the absence you'll be dandy, I'm aware that this is only supposed to be authorised in 'exceptional' circumstances, but it's still within the gift of the head teacher to decide whether such a request is 'exceptional' or not. My point is, that if you don't ask, you don't get. But if you don't get, you respect that decision.

You say you've been in school lately, you work in education then do you? Or you just know a few teachers?

Grammar school kids have better attention spans.

Oooh! That sounds interesting. I'd like to read more about that. Can you point me at the source?
What do they mean by 'better' just longer or more focused?

Both, I have no data to back it up though just teaching experience in comps, those kids who are at the same level as grammar school kids within a comp will work harder for longer than those who wouldnt habe got near grammar school levels.

Not read any of the thread other than:

There's no doubt kids get tired during long terms and later in the day.

I teach in a sixth form college. My physics students are incredibly bright kids who absolutely would have been capable of getting into a grammar school if we had them locally.

Our timetable extends to 4:10, so an hour later than most schools. Our Autumn term starts two weeks earlier than most schools and so is longer than most schools.

My students are pretty knackered by the end of the day, and it gets worse as we go through the term. This is despite them being in fewer lessons per day that pre-16 students.

I can only imagine how they'd be with a fuller timetable, and if they were younger or less able.

My own kids are 8 and 10; they're are exhausted by the end of the school week and get worse as the term progresses.

Longer school days and longer school terms would result in kids being more tired and learning less well.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Nobby not sure how you failed to understand my point about private schools having longer holidays. You raise an interesting point re grammar schools and day length but I'm not sure how appli able tbat would be ina comp. Grammar school kids have better attention spans.
Thers no doubt kids get tired during long terms and later in the day. More hours of schooling a day would only work imo if it was following an extended hour ot two break in the afternoon....not that I want a longer day myself. 7:30 - 5ish plus an hour or so later is more than enough for me.

Sorry, it was me being thick.

The few I know that are in or have been to private schools always had a longer school day than the local comp and my understanding was that this is where the longer hours/longer holidays idea was 'borrowed' from.

FWIW, 3 local comps (now academies) all do this & it works well enough.

russianbob:

I have been a school governor for a number of years and have lived through the fast changing politics & regs thrust upon the sector by successive Gov'ts.

The new regulations do not allow Headteachers any leeway with regards to Holidays:

The Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006 currently allow headteachers to grant leave of absence for the purpose of a family holiday during term time in “special circumstances” of up to ten school days leave per year.

Amendments to the 2006 regulations remove references to family holiday and extended leave as well as the statutory threshold of ten school days. The amendments make clear that headteachers may not grant any leave of absence during term time unless there are exceptional circumstances.

From 1st September they are not allowed to permit 'Holidays'. There is, we have been advised a route of appeal to the LA but this is also unlikely to get anywhere unless there are extreme circumstances - the examples we were given are along the lines of 'terminal illnesses' and even those would require evidence!

the examples we were given are along the lines of 'terminal illnesses' and even those would require evidence!

Yeah, that's right, just, uh, roll her old bones on over here, and I'll dig up your daughter. You know that's school policy.

Amendments to the Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006

2.—(1) The Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006(1) are amended as follows.

(2) In regulation 7—

(a)after paragraph (1) insert—
“(1A) Subject to paragraph (2), leave of absence shall not be granted unless—

(a)an application has been made in advance to the proprietor by a parent with whom the pupil normally resides; and
(b)the proprietor, or a person authorised by the proprietor in accordance with paragraph (1), considers that leave of absence should be granted due to the exceptional circumstances relating to that application.”;

Exceptional circumstances, decided by the proprietor (the head teacher). My head is exercising common sense. The new legislation is to stop people taking the piss. It is by no means out of the school's hands.

Our SIO from the LA made it clear to us that holidays did not fall under the definition of 'leave of absence' any longer - hence it being deleted from the regulation wording. Therefore, our head was told in no uncertain terms that they had no authority in this regard.

It may well be that your LA has a different view.

A nice dilemma to have.

We've just been threatened with a fine for our daughter being off school 5 days with suspected viral meningitis, which the school already know about, yet clearly don't believe..! This is despite the fact our son in the year below has been attending every day, and the daughter in question never having had a day off school in her life. It made my eye balls roll a bit when the letter was delivered on the day of strikes, which prevented her from returning.

From the dfe.

Headteachers have the discretion to grant leave, but they should only do so in exceptional circumstances. If a headteacher grants a leave request, it will be for them to determine the length of time that the child can be away from school. This leave is unlikely, however, to be granted for the purposes of a family holiday.

The Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006

Term-time holiday

The Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006 currently allow headteachers to grant leave of absence for the purpose of a family holiday during term time in “special circumstances” of up to ten school days leave per year. Headteachers can also grant extended leave for more than ten school days in exceptional circumstances.

Amendments to the 2006 regulations remove references to family holiday and extended leave as well as the statutory threshold of ten school days. The amendments make clear that headteachers may not grant any leave of absence during term time unless there are exceptional circumstances. Headteachers should determine the number of school days a child can be away from school if the leave is granted.

Heads might still have some discretion but it seems pretty clear that normal family holidays should not be interpreted as exceptional circumstances.

Changing the subject totally. There are teachers out there who spend their lives working their balls off for their pupils. As a student I knew which teachers these were and as a parent I recognise them clearly. If you are one of these I hope you know it too.

We make a point of telling them they are really appreciated. It's amazing how many aren't told...

Anyone wonder how much of this is down to the loss of revenue by the holiday companies and the follow on tax income for the [s]thieves[/s] government when the inflated prices are bought in during "normal" holiday periods?
My eldest has an almost faultless attendance record - yet last term she had 5 "unauthorised absences" on her record!
They soon disappeared when the school where reminded that 3 of those where for home study days that THE SCHOOL ARRANGED and the other two where in fact orthodontist visits arranged several months in advance!
She is almost 5mths ahead of her peers in course work, in the top 2% of her school and the top 5% county yet they seem to think she will suffer if she so much as misses an hr of lessons. Her extra work is coming from 2yrs above where she is and she gets top marks.
Its already been proven and documented by her tutor that she is suffering more having to repeat work/lessons/etc that she has already done just so they can keep their stats looking good!
Personally - if I didn't run 4 companies - I'd consider home schooling her to ensure she is pushed. Too much emphasis is placed on the "lower levels", bringing them up and "helping the less able" to the detriment of the higher achievers nowadays and it boils my p*ss.
IF I choose to arrange a holiday out of the "normal period" due to work/contractual commitments, etc then I will do so regardless.

My two got an unauthorised absence last year for a day when the head told everyone the school was closed because of emergency electrical work, it got finished early, she reopened the school but didn't actually tell anyone.

I'd consider home schooling her to ensure she is pushed. Too much emphasis is placed on the "lower levels", bringing them up and "helping the less able" to the detriment of the higher achievers nowadays and it boils my p*ss.

It might boil you piss also if she wasn't a high achiever and she was left to flounder whilst the school groomed up their more gifted pupils for Oxbridge entrance exams. Which brings me to ask, is she at the right school? Any grammer schools in your area or are the fruits of your four companies enough to sent her to an independent educational establishment?

#I'd consider home schooling her to ensure she is pushed.

I didn't notice this first time, but do you know anything about teaching?

CharlieMungus - Member
I didn't notice this first time, but do you know anything about teaching?

how are Bass Junkies evidence of that?

I didn't notice this first time, but do you know anything about teaching?

Yes

Ok, then where did you get the idea that 'pushing' kids is a good thing?

mildred - Member
We've just been threatened with a fine for our daughter being off school 5 days with suspected viral meningitis, which the school already know about, yet clearly don't believe..!

That is the stuff of madness!

A post script to this discussion:

A week ago I sent a letter to my son's school asking if there were any activities planned for the week before the half term that it would harm my son's education to miss. I also stated that I had no intention of taking term time holidays once his GCSE courses start next year.

Today I received a phone call from my son's year leader in which he told me that although he could not officially sanction absence, in his opinion my son's progress and attendance were good enough that missing the four days I had identified would not be detrimental to his education.

Did they definitely say they wouldn't fine you? Will still be an unauthorised absence.