[Closed] Taking a 4 month old on a flight

How far you flying?

Was thinking about Canary Isles for some much needed sun, but quite a long flight

I never did when my kids were small. We didn't go abroad for 8 years. But loads do so good luck.

Ok. We flew L'pool Belfast this Christmas with our 8 month old so not a very long flight but friends flew to California (11hrs).

If you take a car seat on board it has to fit in with their guidelines which are quite strict. We had our daughter in a lap belt during take off and landing which meant I could feed her and stop her ears exploding! Our friends were given the option of a bassinet which attaches to some part of the plane in front of them but I think this is for long haul only which I don't think the Canaries are.

If you go for the lap belt option ask if the flight is full before boarding. If it isn't place your child on a seat between you and missus while others are boarding. This means no-one will sit in the seat and you get extra room for baby during flight.

Also remember you can carry 2 items for free in the hold. This includes any 2 of pram, car seat, pushchair, travel cot. If your car seat clips onto your pram then it counts as 1 item. Don't forget that baby does not have hand luggage allowance and that you may not be able to buy a seat for an under 2 year old on-line if you go the car seat route.

Hope some of this helps. Oh yeah, and if you fly from Liverpool allow at least 1.5hrs to get through security or be prepared to pay an extra £3 per person inc baby to fast track the queue.

lap, walk around, normally loads of goodwill from other passengers, kid will be happier and less likely to moan if it meets laods of new interesting people. We took our four month old on an easyslut flight brs-gva for morzine. She was fine.
Anyone who moans about the presence of a kid is a see you next tuesday, full weight.

That's a pretty long flight for a 4mo - we went out with an 18mo in November and were worried about that, but at least there's lots to do to amuse one that age, and he normally cries very little anyway. How much do you really need that sun?

The youngest we've flown anywhere with was 11mo, at which point he was almost walking, so a totally different thing (also a much shorter flight) - he just sat on Mum's lap, so can't really help much, though I can see the point of a car seat for a little one.

If you go for the lap belt option ask if the flight is full before boarding. If it isn't place your child on a seat between you and missus while others are boarding. This means no-one will sit in the seat and you get extra room for baby during flight.

Anyone who moans about the presence of a kid is a <swear filter avoidance>

Even somebody who has to sit behind one crying for 4 hours on a flight?

Yup.

Yes, all advice is Easyjet advice but the seat thing is worth a shot if cabin staff seem nice. Also worth a mention to check-in staff.

Thanks guys! All good advice and will look into it with travel agent tomorrow. Thanks again

we flew 4 times with my youngest when she was 14-16 weeks old (& 3 older kids) short flights (under 2 hours) so just on our laps. all went just fine. (v. easy baby tho) choose a flight that's likely to be quiet if you can and you'll def be guarantees a free seat next to you! having kids has it's pluses in that respect! 😉

oh.. biggest PITA was the odd ****ty customs officer.. do you know exactly how to dismantle your buggy? I mean far more dismantled than you ever would normally?

Flew to colorado (about 10 hours) with our 3 month old in the summer and she slept both ways 🙂 we were quite nervous before though that she might cry all the way!

We flew BA and got a bassinet on the bulk head seat which is free ... Would definitely recommend that over a car seat unless the flight is only a couple of hours.

Hey I can trump that. The wife took ours to Australia when he was six months old. Total journey time was something like 22 hours including three hours in Singapore. At that age it's the easiest air miles you will do especially if you're breast feeding (well not you obviously but you know what I mean). It's when they get a) mobile b) curious and c) independent that the fun with flying any distance starts.

I had a kid screaming hysterically for 8 hours sat right behind me on an overnight flight back from Ghana - would have quite easily strangled it if I thought I could have got away with it.

Congratulations on the strangest willy wave ever there Geetee

Buying a seat for the little one will give you the most comfort if you can afford it.

Having said that, I don't think its necessary when they're very small and not moving around much. 4 months is still young enough to use a travel bassinet for long-haul flights, but every airline has different policies on these. Some you may have to book (and pay for) in advance, others you may get free priority. Or turn up and keep your fingers crossed for a sympathetic move to a row with free seats. Check with the airline website.

We've just taken our 8 month old on a 6-flight family tour over the Christmas holidays without booking a seat for her. For the domestic flights <1hr, we just booked as normal and she sat on our lap. For the 9.5hr Vancouver>London flights, we booked bulkhead seats to get extra floor space. The outgoing flight was very quiet and the staff moved my wife & baby to a row with empty seats anyway, lots of sleep for everyone. For the full return flight, there was enough floor space for us to make her a bed between our legs with blankets & pillows, not great but lots better than a standard row.

Time the feeds so that they are due a bottle by take-off, drinking should help them equalise their ears. Same for descent, or at least have a dummy available.

Also check about prams if you plan to take one up to the gate. Some airlines will let you take any old thing up to the gate, others are a bit pedantic and insist its a small umbrella type.

I had a kid screaming hysterically for 8 hours sat right behind me on an overnight flight back from Ghana - would have quite easily strangled it if I thought I could have got away with it.

Had the same thing when i was away with work last week.

Flying back from Rome Airport to Paris CDG to catch a connection to manchester, there was a cockup with my ticket and i was downgraded to economy only to find me sitting in front of a screaming baby for two hours. Not what you want after working 58 hours over the previous 5 days. Not that great tbh even with my noise cancellers on. Only consolation was the air france flight to manchester. Work paid the flights so i had premium seats, front row of the plane, and no crying babies.

But then again, i don't have kids, so i would think that it's not that sensible to take a small baby on a plane.

footflaps and anto164 - apparently you chaps are <swear filter avoidance> according to toys. How dare you complain about children on flights?

Make sure you have a breast / bottle / dummy handy for the descent. Now't like a good sook to equalise the ear pressure. You can even share it with the wean if it gets too noisy.

I travel/fly on average 3 days a week so I have experienced pretty much all forms of discomfort. Also, I have traveled with my kids back and forth between South Africa and the UK since they were born. It's an overnight flight and both of mine have been great. We've never really had any problems but then we have always gone very prepared. As bad as it may sound, give them something to help them sleep if need be. It doesn't just help you and the other passengers but also the child.

Anyone who moans about a crying baby on a flight is a **** period. We were all that age once and small children do not naturally scream and cry, if they are screaming continuously then something is usually wrong. Yes it's uncomfortable for everyone but so is rerouting a flight because of a heart attack patient or whatever. These things happen, part of life and all that.

That said, there is nothing more annoying than an unprepared parent and I see a few of them regularly. I've been on a long flight with a visibly ill/in pain baby where the parent just plainly refused to give the child any medicine because 'calpol is bad for babies'. I do sometimes feel like giving them a smack round the head.

At that age nothing phases/affects them much and it will be like any other day they may be happy they may be sad who knows.
Look on the birght side if they cry for the whole flight other peole are more angry that you. personally when I hear a crying baby I smile for it is not mine and I can ignore it happilly

I reckon it depends a lot on the baby, if you've got a good sleeper who is easy to encourage to sleep, then it could be okay, but it could be a nightmare.

Ours isn't a good sleeper, and we found that trips staying away at that age had a tendency to mess up her sleep patterns for a week or so, which was a pain.

We did find travelling by train a million times easier than long car journeys, as you could walk around with her, I'd guess planes are similar in that respect, and few people would worry about a car journey with a baby.

Congratulations on the strangest willy wave ever there Geetee

Quite, although to be fair to the wife, I wasn't even with her. She did this entirely on her own.

I thought I'd lucked-out on a flight over to Perth with two empty seats next to me, only to get a young mum and her 2yo in the previously spare seats. Not much of an issue, until it traspires her way to stop it going mental and to try to make it sleep is to keep feeding it sugar 😯

personally when I hear a crying baby I smile for it is not mine and I can ignore it happilly

+1 - somebody else's problem 🙂

I am afraid I am in the Please Please Don't camp, well for long flights anyway. If somebody sat behind you in an enclosed space in which you were trapped for 12 hours and blasted on an airhorn at intervals of something between continuous then just as you were finally falling asleep, every 15 mins, would you think that was reasonable behavior ? No, you'd be away to Council Noise Control, or calling the UN to invoke the Geneva Convention.

And you can prevent this, just don't take the baby on the flight. Or drug it, or put it in the hold luggage, anything.

I have heard people on buses complain about noise from young persons music playing devices, yet this kind of thing is considered OK.

And this is from bitter experience, and the perpetrators did just shrug and act like I was the mean old bad lady.

Flights of less than 6 hours during the day, just acceptable. Flights of 30 hours that involve hundreds of people trying to sleep, selfish selfish selfish.

Miserable old lady!!! 😀
I think I touched a nerve with aracer. But you misunderstood my post. I meant people who complain to [b]you[/b] on the [b]aeroplane[/b] about[b] your baby[/b].
Imagine the stress you are under if your baby won't stop wailing. Do you think having a person moan in your ear about it is suddenly going to give you magic powers to calm the child down? Whatever your opinions may be that is fine with me, I just don't think anyone has the right to moan at someone mid-air.
Ultimately its up the airlines, they are happy (and I think rightly so) to take kids with all the problems that entails. If you don't like it either shut up or don't get on the plane.

Edit: I'm not accusing anyone here of this, and your opinion is valid and acceptable, complain to the airlines.

I have heard people on buses complain about noise from young persons music playing devices, yet this kind of thing is considered OK.

This is about choice, the person playing the music can turn it down. You can't just turn a baby down.

There is an answer to the wailing baby - I never get on a plane without earplugs. Absolutely essential.

Remember to feed the baby on take off and landing. Feed on take off may well have added bonus of sending it to sleep!

This is about choice... You can't just turn a baby down.

No, but unless the journey is absolutely essential you can choose not to do it.

No, but unless the journey is absolutely essential you can choose not to do it.

So I see, essential travel on public transport only, for families with small kids, because a few people are intolerant and miserable? Are you actually proposing this seriously?

No, but unless the journey is absolutely essential you can choose not to do it.

What pleasure travel is absolutely essential though?

If you are choosing to go in cattle class in a flying cigar tube with wings then you have to accept you will be with every offering society has to give!

selfish selfish selfish.

Far from it, its public transport, for everyone. Its like the people who complain on Easyjet when the person in front tilts there seatback! You paid for sh*t service and leg room so you have to expect it.

So I see, essential travel on public transport only, for families with small kids, because a few people are intolerant and miserable? Are you actually proposing this seriously?

Err, I was just posting an alternative viewpoint. Don't be chump and put words in my mouth.

Yes I don't remember insulting you, I think I just questioned your "alternative viewpoint" and thought through the consequences of the quite frankly moronic and intolerant viewpoint you posted.

Err, where did I propose that families with small kids should only make essential journeys on public transport? I was simply offering the viewpoint that parents do have an element of choice about whether their baby disturbs other passengers on the aeroplane.

And I didn't insult you, I offered you advice 😀

Is it just me that keeps reading the thread title as:

[b]Taking on a 4 month old in a fight[/b]

????

Oh. It is. Sorry. 😉

Unless it's essential, I wouldn't want to put myself or others through the pain.

I came back from Dubai on business, in business class and there was a small baby in economy in one of the 'cot' set ups on the front row of seats behind. It had one hell of a set of lungs, i'll give it that.

Thankfully the flight wasn't particulary busy, and the crew could see people were getting increasingly wound up over it, so people were moved. They ended up with a cabin pretty much to themselves. You could see they wanted the ground to open & swallow them up.

I couldn't put myself or my children through that experience, nor could I inflict it onto others, of which most have paid a lot of money for the privilage.

Not really sure what the answer is, but also i'm not sure its fair on X number of other people to make already slow & frustrating experience even worse.

i'm clearly an incredibly selfish <swear filter avoidance>

poor baby is probably scared <swear filter avoidance>

flights are getting as bad as dorms in hostels 🙁

Crying babies on flights can be annoying? Of course! But as a father I understand. Doesn't bother me.

I agree with the comment about walking about. The parents of said child will not be comfortable either so walking about seems to calm them. Certainly works for the parents on the long haul flights I do for work.

We took Junior 1 to the canaries form Glasgow when he was 7 months old. Despite the flight being full on the way out, it was pretty painless.
Good advice from mrs F about feeding on take off and landing - allows their ears to pop with the pressure changes.

Be careful about trying to book extra seats. I once did this for a Ryanair flight. Turned up at the airport and was told it wasn't allowed and was refunded there and then. If you fly easyjet, just plonk the car seat in the middle seat with parents either side - no one is going to stop you unless the flight is completely full.

It will get more difficult as they get older - enjoy it now.

It depends on the baby. Lil Grips has had her own seat since the age of 1 because she was just too big to hold and wanted to be exploring all the stimulating things around.

To those who are whining about screaming babies - spare a thought for the poor parents. They probably thought their kid would be ok and gambled so that they could take he/she to see its family on the other side of the world.

I've never experienced a baby screaming continuously on a flight, but I have seen a lot of anxious parents taking great pains to stop their baby annoying the other passengers. Even if it means 8 hours of singing songs, walking up and down the aisle, playing, reading books overnight so doing without any sleep, then having to drive three hours through morning rush hour traffic when you land.....

Re airlines - whether or not you get a bassinet or even a lap belt depends on the airline. American give you a big fat bugger all, including not giving you any baby food or even food outside the normal serving time because your kid was FINALLY asleep when the food came and is now hungry because you forgot baby food.. BA on the other hand give you bassinets and baby food and all, and fall over backwards to help you out.

Are you allowed babies in Business ? I ask because i was flying backwards and forwards UK/USA/NZ last year in business mainly and on two trips had young kids (3-5) rattling around in business which, and i know this sounds a bit rough, annoyed a few people. I wasn't that fussed but it got me thinking what would happen if someone turned up with a screaming baby in Business or First ? I'd assume if they can afford it then they can. I'd be somewhat disturbed to have a long flight with no sleep and then need to work - the reason i fly in bc anyway !

As you were.

toys19 - Member
Anyone who moans about the presence of a kid is a see you next tuesday, full weight.

Or anyone who expects everyone else to put up with their adorable brat whilst stuck in an enclosed environment for hours on end is a see you next etc....

Just because you're all loved up with your latest efforts doesn't mean the rest of the world shares your enthusiasm.

Good for you, you've produced. Just don't inflict its output (in various forms) on everyone else and expect (insist?) them to show the tolerance you think you are 'owed'.

Bloody new parents, tsssk.

Unreal !.

You have children, presumably, that was your choice.

How do you think that your lifestyle choice to become a parent, should be an acceptable inconvinience to everyone else around you ?.
WTF ??.

Toys19. You're the idiot mate, not everyone else.

You and your screaming off-spring will annoy the daylights out of everyone around you, [b]everywhere you go[/b].

But you don't care, [b]you need[/b] a break and some sunshine and to hell with anyone you happen to upset while you drag your family around with you.

I struggle to think of anything more selfish and ignorant than parents who drag their young and unhappy children around on public transport, to satisfy their need to [i]get away from it all[/i].

I dont blame the kids, their young and have no idea of what its like.
But the parents, they know and don't care.
Its "Me first and to hell with everyone else".

Truely ignorant !.

+1.

The one "see you next tues" on here seems to be toys with his I'm alright Jack mentality.

Are you allowed babies in Business

We came back from Hong Kong a few years ago with our 3 [1, 3 & 5] in business
There were a few mutterings when we boarded & I heard the odd remark during the flight
The kids were reasonably quiet most of the time & slept a lot so I don't think anyone had any valid complaints about it.

Ooooooh three in a row, gosh. Well boys you've revealed yourselves. We know who to avoid in future. Unfortunately for you, taking kids on planes is something the airline industry disagree's with you about. So I'll see you in cattle class, bring your earplugs. Ha ha.

[i]So I'll see you in cattle class, bring your earplugs. Ha ha[/i]

I feel so sorry for your children having you as one of their parents.
You're doing a pretty good job here of letting your wife/husband down too, with posts like that.

But you're too ignorant to see it.

In your case, I totally agree with Allthepies.
😕

More evidence of what a selfish twit you are. Are you Surf Matt in disguise?

I don't fly with you brat spawning plebs preferring to spend my time and money down the pointy end. Fortunately, the idiots there seem to be business men with inflated ideas of self worth rather than spawn bearing, selfish imbeciles. Enjoy yourself with the cattle...

Not nice is it (pointless insults)?

We know who to avoid in future.

PLEASE do, thanks 🙂

Oh dear, you'll have to try harder than that.

To the OP: it'll be fine, it's only a short flight. We took out (then) 2 month old baby from Madrid to London, your flight's not that much longer. They're easy at that age, when they're 15 months it's a lot harder as they don't get a seat, they weigh far too much to be sitting on your lap all flight, and they get bored easily.
Take a bottle with water or milk in it for the landing, it'll help with the ears.

To those complaining about babies on flights: tough. Sorry, that's how it is. I fully understand that it's not a pleasant way to spend your time, listening to a baby crying, but suggesting that noone should be allowed on a plane until they're responsible enough is ridiculous. Like TJ says, take earplugs.
When I've flown with the kids I do all I can to stop them bothering other people - walking up and down the aisles, making sure they have lots of things to entertain them, etc. But at the end of the day small kids cry, and sometimes there's not a lot anyone can do about it.

mogrim - Member
<snip>
To those complaining about babies on flights: tough. Sorry, that's how it is. I fully understand that it's not a pleasant way to spend your time, listening to a baby crying, but suggesting that noone should be allowed on a plane until they're responsible enough is ridiculous. Like TJ says, take earplugs.

Not sure about the suggestion that noone flies...

My point was that you (parents) have no automatic right to expect other passengers to share your enthusiasm for your progeny and calling people a filthy name for female genitalia if they don't, does not further your cause.

Consideration is a two way street.

Screaming kids on planes are a bit like the weather

You can do your best to avoid the worst of it but sometimes it comes along just when you don't want it
All you can do is make the most of it & wait till it's over

People with kids should be banned from air travel.
Also fat people.
Also people who talk loudly.
Also people that have bad eating manners.
Also people that look a bit strange.
Also ... anyone left on the plane now?

Molgrips. I'm not sure you've read my initial post.

[i]When I've flown with the kids I do all I can to stop them bothering other people - walking up and down the aisles, making sure they have lots of things to entertain them, etc[/i]

Well, that is commendable, and its good to see a grown up on here, and that they at least [b]try[/b] not to upset the surrounding folk.

But
[i]and sometimes there's not a lot anyone can do about it[/i]

Perhaps, do not fly ?.

I would have thought that foregoing air travel for 5-6 years after the birth of the child, was all part of the [i]sacrifice[/i] you make when you are lucky enough to become a parent, no ?.

Boblo, offence is something you choose to take, and you have chosen to be offended and conveniently ignored the tissue of my posts. Whilst my initial statement was general. I went on to clarify that it was aimed at those who harangue parents on flights. Something I've seen and it can get quite awful. As I explicitly stated if you don't like it then you should complain to the airline, or express your opinion here, which quite frankly is your right and I don't expect you to agree with me. I just think anyone who has a go at a parent with screaming kids on a flight is a specified part of the female genitalia, full weight. I hope that clarifies it for you.

But
"and sometimes there's not a lot anyone can do about it"

Perhaps, do not fly ?.

Why? To avoid "inconvenience" to people like you? That's the way life is, mate, we are born into a species whose all of whose members we may not like. Tough luck. Maybe [b]you[/b] should stay indoors to avoid inconveniencing people with your ugly face and your uglier ideas?

Actually, what Boblo said ^^

But
and sometimes there's not a lot anyone can do about it

Perhaps, do not fly ?.

I would have thought that foregoing air travel for 5-6 years after the birth of the child, was all part of the sacrifice you make when you are lucky enough to become a parent, no ?.

Shouldn't you be lobbying the airlines?
After all parents are only doing what the airlines are allowing them to do

Dr_J.

Actually, I do try to avoid getting into situations where I might be within painful ear-shot of unhappy children on a transport.

But as Boblo says. what on earth gives parents the right to demand that everyone around them tolerate their children, just so they can go on holiday.

As for ugly faces, etc. Well, as I posted earlier, posting like that only lets [b]you[/b] down mate.
Have a good weekend.
😉

But
and sometimes there's not a lot anyone can do about it

Perhaps, do not fly ?.

I would have thought that foregoing air travel for 5-6 years after the birth of the child, was all part of the sacrifice you make when you are lucky enough to become a parent, no ?.

My parents live in England (and I'm in Spain), my grandmother is too old to fly, but I ought to wait til my kids are old enough [i]just in case[/i]? I know people who've cancelled flights because their kids have ear infections and will be screaming all flight, most parents that I know wouldn't knowingly get on a plane thinking that their kids are going to be a pain. I fully understand that you'd get annoyed and I'd expect to be given filthy looks, but that's life.

But as Boblo says. what on earth gives parents the right to demand that everyone around them tolerate their children, just so they can go on holiday.

Because having children is a necessary part of maintaining a society, and it's therefore reasonable to demand a little toleration of the differences between a child and an adult?

Actually, what Boblo said ^^

You mean where he said:

Not sure about the suggestion that noone flies...

Is that what you meant when you said

Perhaps, do not fly ?.

Toys - how many posters missed your point?

Which was if I can understand it - that once the child is screaming on the plane there is no point in haranguing the parents - it won't help - having a child scream is not a deliberate act.

Now I hate badly trained children worse than I hate badly trained dogs - but kicking children gets you in nearly as much trouble as kicking dogs. However a childs bite is rarely as painful.

I never get on a plane or long distance train without a set of earplugs

Hmmm, thank you Toys. I'm not offended by your posts, I just find your attitude breathtakingly selfish.

I've flown with kids (my own and other peoples), people that smell, are fat, are pissed, are loud, eat like pigs and those that look a bit funny (me included). I don't complain (unlike the 6 Hasidic Jews that refused to sit near the passenger next to me an a long flight from Chile just, gasp, because she was FEMALE - they were almost deplaned).

You need to remember, you have no right to expect others to enjoy your childs output the same as you have no right to play your music via your mobile at full volume and expect them to enjoy that as well. You've made your choice, just don't inflict it on everyone else and expect a round of applause.

BTW, nappy changing at the fold down cots is also a practice employed by some parents exercising their 'rights' and is both vile and disgusting. Better not raise an eyebrow thought you see you next etc.

Boblo, offence is something you choose to take, and you have chosen to be offended and conveniently ignored the tissue of my posts

You are of course quite correct. Although I thought the whole reason to call someone a <female genitalia> was to insult them: ergo, you were being insulting.

This is pretty well backed up by your attitude, as highlighted by others.

Seeing as I now live in Oz, and family are at home, I would assume that at some point, I'll be on the other end of this; and for flights where visiting family are concerned, I can't really see a way around it. But for simple family holidays, why would you want to put your child through it? No wonder they scream their brains out with the engine noise, strange environment and pressure exploding their little heads, with no comprehension as to why it's happening.

As for the bassinets, they're great some of the time, but most of the noise from kids of the long haul flights I've been on has stemmed from turbulence meaning fasten seatbelts - leaving poor little Johnny to be rudely awoken and plonked on his mum's lap. Now I get fairly ratty when woken to put my seat belt on (even when it's on), so I can fully empathise with the somewhat narked babies yanked out of their beds.

Uplink.

[i]Shouldn't you be lobbying the airlines?
After all parents are only doing what the airlines are allowing them to do[/i]

As you well know, that would be a futile exercise.

Anyway, you're missing my point. Why is it so unfashionable for people to be considerate ?.
If / when I'm blessed with the gift of children, I will not be subjecting them to hours of flying and other passengers to hours of noise, screaming, etc.
I will be blissfully happy to make it easier on everyone involved by not going to the airport, not sitting for hours on a plane and not going around another country trying to holiday with unhappy children.

Is loading up the family car and renting a cottage somewhere in the UK, just for a few years, so terrible ?.

Oops: I seem to have posted to Molgrips when I ment to write Mogrim.
Apologies to both. 😳

Now I hate badly trained children worse than I hate badly trained dogs - but kicking children gets you in nearly as much trouble as kicking dogs. However a childs bite is rarely as painful.

BTW, nappy changing at the fold down cots is also a practice employed by some parents exercising their 'rights' and is both vile and disgusting.

Now that really is just trolling.

Zokes.

Good points and well put !.
😉

mogrim - Member

BTW, nappy changing at the fold down cots is also a practice employed by some parents exercising their 'rights' and is both vile and disgusting.

Now that really is just trolling.

Been there, seen it, got the (dirty) tee shirt. <sigh>

mogrim - Member

Because having children is a necessary part of maintaining a society, and it's therefore reasonable to demand a little toleration of the differences between a child and an adult?

And going on holiday whilst 'demanding tolerance' is a 'necessary part of maintaining a society' is it?

Mogrim.

I see that you're out for a flame-off, but I fear you may be on shakey ground.

Children are a choice.

Taking children onto a plane to go on holiday, is a choice.

While I admire TJs patience, I fail to understand why parents [b]demand and expect[/b] me, TJ, whoever, to put with it.

[i]Because having children [s]is a necessary part of maintaining a society[/s] was [b]my choice[/b], and it's therefore unreasonable and selfish of me to demand and expect other [s]a little toleration of the differences between a child and an adult[/s] people to put up with my children so I can have a break[/i].

There, fixed that for you 🙂

Also, you now live so far from some of your family that you really only want to fly to go see them.
I don't recall making you move to Spain.
It wasn't me, you did it.
Thats your problem, why make it mine ?.
😉

EDIT: [i] And going on holiday whilst 'demanding tolerance' is a 'necessary part of maintaining a society' is it?
[/i]
Exactly !.

Children are a choice.

Taking children onto a plane to go on holiday, is a choice.

You getting on the plane is also a choice

Taking children onto a plane to go on holiday, is a choice.

While I admire TJs patience, I fail to understand why parents demand and expect me, TJ, whoever, to put with it.

Same reason that I expect people to put up with looking at my ugly face and bad dress sense when I go out in public. That's who I am/we are. That's the way we were made. If you don't like your fellow human beings, better stay home and not use public transport.

uplink - Member
You getting on the plane is also a choice

But it is not a choice which inconveniences others (unless you are a fatto or smell of poo) 🙂

uplink - Member

Children are a choice.

Taking children onto a plane to go on holiday, is a choice.

You getting on the plane is also a choice

And you should be able to exercise it without fear or favour... You should reasonably expect an environment that is safe, comfortable, clean etc. Not littered with parents 'demanding' tolerance for little Johny's latest indiscretion.

I'm very happy to choose to tolerate, I strongly object to being told to be tolerant (oh the irony).

But it is not a choice which inconveniences others

oh, I dunno
I was sat next to a fella coming back from Frankfurt on Wednesday, who snored loudly the whole way back
I gave him a few digs & he stopped, only to start again minutes later