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Just back in from seeing this and marvelling at the composure of the pilots. It's a fascinating film for flight buffs.
I've survived a single engine bird strike on take off out of Newark at night. It's not something I'd want to experience again.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aero-engine-bird-strike-how-scary
Thought it was great, pacing was really good and they focussed on the right bits, recommended!
ah, good. been umming and ahing about seeing this. Think I will on basis of this.
McM, I had assumed you were piloting the flight out of Newark! Slightly crestfallen for you once I'd read the link.
Just back in from seeing this and marvelling at the composure of the pilots.
You do know they aren't actually flying a real plane in a real crisis? Like actors...
I'm not sure whether to watch or not. I think it will annoy me.
I watched it last night, fantastic film. 9/10.
If you can't make it to the cinema, it's been released on download in the US now, if you fiddle about a bit with it, you can buy it from the US version of Amazon.
We plan to see this at the WE, the trailer is pretty impressive on its own.
dantsw13 - MemberI'm not sure whether to watch or not. I think it will annoy me.
What aspect of it would you think would annoy you?
According to the Pilots of Quora it's *almost* accurate, I think some commented about the way the plane entered the water was a bit off, but even they could suspend their disbelief and enjoy it.
For a Hollywood film, it's not over-blown, I don't recall any Airplane style "not on my watch" moments.
The ending is a little bit, Hollywood, but I've not idea if it's accurate.
Looking forward to it, chose to see Allies (excellent) last week instead but Sully will be the film for next Tuesdays cinema deal (2 tickets for €6 🙂 )
You do know they aren't actually flying a real plane in a real crisis? Like actors...
I trust that they used the transcripts and data from the black boxes verbatim.
marvelling at the composure of the pilots.
My understanding is that use of the phrase "This is your Captain speaking, we're all going to ****ing die!" is frowned upon.
My cousin used to be an airline safety manager and we spoke about the film at tbe weekend. Apparently the crash report is fascinating if rather bulky reading
I did a course on Crew resource management and the Lecturers utilised this incident , including transcripts , and said it was "almost perfect" in its execution. One lecturer was an Ex-Airline pilot and the other the Off Duty Master of the Herald of Free Enterprise.
My wife (BA pilot) doesn't get impressed easily with aviation stuff but there are a couple of things she holds as utter beacons of complete heroism.
The Sioux City crash landing is one, because despite the fact that the plane crashed, the fact that it got to an aiport at all saved lives and is something that no one in a sim has even been able to repeat.
The other is the landing on the Hudson. She says the chances of making that landing and the aircraft's nose not digging in a cartwheeling are tiny. The skill demonstrated by the captain in making the landing, and the leadership of both pilots throughout are both spinetingling.
Wife liked it but I found it a bit boring. Difficult to engender suspense when we know it ends successfully.
Just back in from seeing this and marvelling at the composure of the pilots.
You do know they aren't actually flying a real plane in a real crisis? Like actors...
The pilot is jinxed, first the Apollo 13 incident, now this
Do they include this in the sound track
Also this poor guy so nearly pulled-off another Hudson water landing earlier this year..
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/05/28/wwii-hudson-river-crash-rachel-crane-lkl-nd.cnn
On this note. Has there ever been a movie about flight ba009. Quad engine failure
I knew nothing about it its before my time although it came up in an obituary of a club mate this year and I read into it. Some bloody ballsy pilots on that one.
Good bit bit on Radio 4 about it a few weeks back with Tom Hanks
Turning a 90 second incident in to a 1.5hr (whatever) film.
Apparently the inquest bit of the film was all fiction to make it more of a story....
My problem with creating heroes from a successful outcome creates the view that if another pilot attempted emergency ditching, and killed people, it's suddenly all his fault that people died. My time in the military taught me the fine line between a court martial and a DFC!
Sully and his fellow pilot were suddenly in a situation never trained for, and without options (crashing into the city of crashing into the big open river doesn't really count as making a decision imho!!). Nobody had a clue as to the handling characteristics of an airliner landing into that particular piece of water. He did his best, and they all walked away. A sudden gust of wind, a log in the river, a bit of swell from a boat, and suddenly they could have been cartwheeling and sinking.
Joe, GeeTee and Dan very interesting comments.
Dan I get it was an obvious choice in the circumstances and yes luck played a part but so did skill. Heroism makes for a better movie.
bit similar to the Nimrod that ditched in the Moray Firth, all crew safe..
Jambalaya - oh, I get that. It's the American way.
Pilots are a very analytical bunch - we learn a lot from our disasters. If we had a presentation on the Hudson Incident, it would undoubtedly focus on the negative elements, and how we could improve in the future, much as we have from the Air France Rio crash.
If the poo really hits the fan, all you can do is stay calm ( he did) and hope you are lucky ( he was).
There was an Air Transat incident where a pilot glided into the Azores after running out of fuel. The glide was an amazing piece of flying skill, and he was an instant hero. Then someone investigated why they ran out of fuel - he had ignored the Airbus procedures for a fuel leak, as he mistrusted computers, and had fed all his fuel into a leaking engine/tank until there was none left!
My time in the military taught me the fine line between a court martial and a DFC!
As someone who has served in the military, I am sure you will understand that heroism does not reside in the outcome of a perilous event, it resides in a person being there for others in a perilous event.
Kcal - that Nimrod incident is a real example of good decisions under pressure. Art Stacey, the Captain, elected to ditch in the sea, even though he could see his home base under 10 miles away, as he thought the fire was so bad the wings wouldn't make it to the runway. Subsequent investigation proved him right.
That, IMHO is a far more heroic thing to do, when your engines are still running, and you have to make a positive decision to throw it in the sea! He was also lucky the Moray Firth was unusually calm that day.
Geetee - if only!! In the modern Airforce a DFC is often the outcome for a successful risk, whereas a CM beckons if you aren't so lucky.
I think what's most amazing about the Hudson incident is the decision to land in the Hudson in the first place.
I strongly suspect that if you put most pilots in a simulator and gave them that sort of unexpected scenario, then the vast majority of those would try to stretch the glide to an airport.
The actual landing on the river is, to some extent, in the lap of the gods.
Geetee - if only!! In the modern Airforce a DFC is often the outcome for a successful risk, whereas a CM beckons if you aren't so lucky.
What do the people awarding the DFC or prosecuting a CM know. They weren't there. You were.
Sorry, I'm not being trite. I've not served in the military but I've been in a forward position once before as well as a number of other vaguely sticky situations and have learned that judgements after the fact can only ever be the priviledge of those that weren't there. The only people who can know for sure whether you're a hero or not are the ones that were there with you.
Of course if you've been CMd that rather idealistic opinion might be of scant consolation.
Geetee - I completely agree with you, but the senior military commanders are very much politicians, and love both good publicity, and a scapegoat! I made several operational decisions in a theatre of war in the full knowledge that if I messed it up I would be hung out to dry for breaking the rules, but somebody needed help so I did it. Kept my gob shut afterwards to avoid too much oversight, but basked in the warm glow of knowing I might have made a difference to guys in need on the ground.
Feel free to bask here as well Dan.
Which all leads back to my main point. There are many pilots who will have displayed amazing courage and heroism, only to have it all cruelly snatched away by circumstances outside their control, hence why I am loathe to put any Pilot on a pedestal based on a successful outcome . He did his job brilliantly and may well be one of the luckiest pilots alive, but I'm loathe to put his skill and heroism above those less lucky who did not make it.
TrekEx8 - I'm not sure if you fly, but from the position he lost both engines, the picture outside only really gave one option and I would expect at least 9/10 pilots to attempt the same landing on the Hudson.
Thing is, despite all the training, the skills, the amazing calm and control, it all comes down to luck in the end!
Take the 777 short landing at Heathrow, where the engines wouldn't come out of flight idle (due to ice blockage of the engine oil / fuel heat exchangers, and the plane juuuuuust made it over the fence and onto the relatively smooth/flat ground at the runway apron. Here, it turns out the pilots forgot, in their necessary haste (no time to read check lists) to select the correct, ie to the procedure/checklist flap setting. However, when they re-ran the crash in the Sim, using the "correct" flap setting increased drag, and the plane crashed into the road/fence every time............
"Which all leads back to my main point. There are many pilots who will have displayed amazing courage and heroism, only to have it all cruelly snatched away by circumstances outside their control, hence why I am loathe to put any Pilot on a pedestal based on a successful outcome . He did his job brilliantly and may well be one of the luckiest pilots alive, but I'm loathe to put his skill and heroism above those less lucky who did not make it."
i believe the saying here is "id rather be lucky than good" and that applys to many walks of life.
Sounds a good film and I'm sure to watch it at some time. But with regards to heroism. I'm sure the pilot showed good judgment and exceptional skill in landing the plane. But to be a hero surly there has to be choice, he had no option to do anything other than what he did. First and foremost the pilot was saving his own life, absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it was an act of survival. I'm sure he had great concern for his passengers but it's not as if he could have turned his back and walked away.
I've a mate who flies commercial jets (big ones) and talking to him on this subject is always enlightening, particularly the element of luck. He was / is dead against the relatively new trend of 'hero worshipping' pilots for exactly the reason above, that if someone did the same and luck turns out different then they'll be blamed for not pulling it off.
Going further he said that he thinks it's the advent of internet, rolling news, using eyewitnesses as reporters etc., that has forced the issue rather than pilots or Airline managers wanting to push them(selves) into the public eye. A long time ago, before the days of 24 hour news, he had an engine fire on take-off that caused an evacuation with the only casualty being a broken bone for someone flying off the end of the slide. After everything was done they were called into the chief's office and basically told that if they expected a medal or a bonus they could forget it; that's what they trained for, so that in the event of it going shit-shaped they respond properly. They'd responded properly, hence it would be duly recorded and that'd be the last of it. Which is exactly how my mate wanted it to be.
In respect of 'flying' commercially; also as above he says that flying is the easy bit. A bit of stress getting everything done and off on time, and a landing 8-12 hours later, and not much in between. For him the hassles all come down route where he effectively manages the crew as needed, with young, carefree flight attendants creating all sorts of issues to be dealt with. Emotional, drunkeness, criminal, etc., have all crossed his 'desk' at some point.
But with regards to heroism. I'm sure the pilot showed good judgment and exceptional skill in landing the plane. But to be a hero surly there has to be choice, he had no option to do anything other than what he did.
Yes. Interesting section in Clarkson's VC documentary about some of the nominations that were rejected because of the element of self-preservation.
Max torque - I don't know where you heard that version, but it's BS. The Capt made a decision to change the flap setting to gain enough lift to clear the fence. Had he not done so, we would have had a 777 in the Multi Storey Carpark.
That was my understanding of the Heathrow crash. Flaps were configured for landing, lost both engines and the captain worked out he'd get closer to the runway by changing the flaps.
Just been to see the film. Absolutely superb, easily one of the best I've ever seen.
I've seen the ground radar replay and listened to the RT of the ba777 incident at Heathrow.
When declaring the may day the pilot used the wrong callsign. The reason being that the callsign was the one he used when he was last in the simulator practicing emergencies. Physcologists could have a field day analysing that.
The response from the fire crews was impressive to see.
Warning grumpy alert 😉
We all enjoyed it and glad we saw it at the cinema. Hanks and Eckhart (co-pilot) where excellent. Far too Holywood for me though, the whole show trial thing was ridiculous.
Best part of the film was the last few minutes imo (no spoilers from me)
I wish @dan and mrs @geetee long, happy and uneventful careers.
No doubting Sully's skills. I would much prefer to have someone like him at the helm than a typical Easyjet or Ryanair pilot with minimal hours before getting in the seat and no experience of unproceduralised flying.
The issue I have about celebrating events like these is that they are 100% lucky. Sully is one lucky pilot. If it was dark, the weather was poor, the Hudson iced over or with busier shipping traffic it would have been completely different. He had everything working in his favour. Air accidents are always not a result of one thing, but a stack up of many things that happen simultaneously. If the same situation were to occur again then in all probability it wouldn't end anywhere near as well.
I'm more concerned that the engines did not survive the bird strikes and both engines were lost. A key test for large engines installed on the big wide-body aircraft to achieve certification is to take a multiple bird strike with six 6lb Geese (I think they might have even upped it to 8lb Geese recently), and to achieve and maintain Max Continuous Power for at least 5 minutes without shutting down or exhibiting any symptoms of the engine being at risk of failing in any way. This is to demonstrate the engines ability to enable the aircraft going around to perform a safe landing. So to have a double in flight shut down due to bird strikes worries me - it shouldn't have happened. Maybe the bird ingestion tests are not as stringent for small engines fitted to narrow body aircraft, and I hope they will be changed and brought more in line with the large widebody engines after this event.
Bird strikes are quite common (as well as Rabbit and other ground mammal ingestions where they have been sucked up off the ground during take-off) and often the pilots don't have any idea with signs of bird ingestion only being spotted on the ground after the flight when physical damage is spotted to the engine or from the vibration telemetry transmitted from the aircraft showing a small increase in engine vibration.
However ultimately it was a perfect outcome with everyone surviving, and awesome piloting skills, but 100% lucky and not sure it is something that should be enthusiastically celebrated. When interviewed Sully is a very calm and man and almost downplay's his efforts - I think he knows full well he was one lucky son of a gun.
I was at an airline conference shortly after this event where a video was shown with the cockpit voice recording was played along an animated simulation of the aircraft taken from the data recorder data. There was a lot of loud whooping and cheering and much elation from the Americans in the audience. I thought that was in bad taste. I thought a more appropriate response should have been a more concerned and sobering moping of a sweaty brow "That was a bloody close one" type of response.
Great fodder for a good old Hollywood spectacular though. I'll be watching it.
There was another serious mistake made by the 777 crew - post landing...
Not judging, just saying, thats probably why they never got the hero worship
My view - no one is a hero for doing their job well. However I would praise him to the sky for the skill he showed. Yes luck plays its part but would a less skilled pilot have been able to do it?
Its also a really heartwarming story
The "show trial" aspects of the film are apparently complete fiction and show the NTSB investigators in an undeservedly bad light.
I guess maybe they decided to do that to make the script more interesting in some way, but I have no idea why?
Personally I enjoyed it enormously [i]except[/i] for the portrayal of the NTSB types who were played like petty, vindictive idiots.
Go on samunkin - enlighten me?
Cobrakai - I get callsigns wrong all the time, as we have so many, and some just don't stick in your brain. Whilst trying to diagnose a double non-responsive engines, run checklists, fly the aircraft, talk to ATC, talk to the pax, talk to the crew, and save the lives of 200 people by a non-standard flap selection to balloon the jet over the boundary fence - then crash landing short of the runway, im hardly surprised he got a call sign wrong. Oh and he'd been at work 13 hrs flying from the Far East, a notoriously sleep disrupted working pattern.
I would Far rather lose both engines in sullys position than Petes at LHR. Sully had height and speed to play with, as opposed to neither.
Sorry Dan, in no was I implying by using another call sign he'd done something wrong. It fascinated me when I found out why he'd used that particular call sign. It was an indicator to me that the emergency training was so ingrained that it came out during the incident which is a good thing.
I get callsigns wrong all the time. It gets embarrassing when you keep calling easyjet, Ryanairs or vice versa. 😳
FWIW both Mrs C and I really enjoyed the film. I thought it was very well done and didn't have quite the full on American shtick that sometimes accompanies a Client Eastwood film. I wasn't aware that the NTSB stuff was completely fictional as per the film although listening to Tom Hanks interviews it would appear that a lot of the investigation work and reviews he had to go through took a lot longer than appears the case in the film. Sully had that hanging over him for close on a year, I believe, although as was mentioned earlier it wasn't as hostile as depicted in the film. Hero is a strong word to use but I can see why passengers or close friends / relations of those on that flight would see him as a hero. It's an easy way to ascribe recognition and gratitude to someone who managed to keep calm and avert a disaster in challenging circumstances and in so doing probably saved the lives of 153 passengers. Sure, he was doing his job. But, it could so easily have not panned out. Based on the film, I have a deep respect for him and what he did.
Sully is one lucky pilot
Could you explain what is lucky about losing both engines whilst taking off from a very large city?
Lucky, in that he had a nice big piece of water there, no ships in the way, no swell, favourable wind. If you are going to lose 2 engines after takeoff, that's not a bad set of cards to be played.
Please note, I have never criticised Sullys actions, just tried to add perspective.
Cobrakai - no problem, as above just trying to add some perspective to those outside the industry.
Watched it last week brilliant film. Clint Eastwood certainly is a talented man and one of Hollywood's legends.
Lucky, in that he had a nice big piece of water there, no ships in the way, no swell, favourable wind. If you are going to lose 2 engines after takeoff, that's not a bad set of cards to be played.
How many airline pilots experience losing both engines after takeoff?
Once upon a time many commercial jet aeroplanes had four engines, then the bean counters realised that two big engines were more economical.
Very few, but you seem to be missing the point.
If you have a catastrophic failure, the outcome is predicated on situational luck, far more than exceptional skill.
.Watched it last week brilliant film. Clint Eastwood certainly is a talented man and one of Hollywood's legends
Even more incredible given his age.
Yup.
No doubting Sully's skills. I would much prefer to have someone like him at the helm than a typical Easyjet or Ryanair pilot with minimal hours before getting in the seat and no experience of unproceduralised flying
That's uninformed and frankly offensive. I acquired thousands of hours on the Airbus at EasyJet and would jump on any of their aircraft as a passenger without the slightest qualm.
Anyone else giggle when the air traffic control guy was told that 'all the passengers got pulled off'?
No? Just me then. As you were.
You do know they aren't actually flying a real plane in a real crisis? Like actors...
Damn! Really? Next you'll be telling us the ship sinks at the end...
Flaperon, Don't mean to offend and not insinuating that pilots are unsafe, but was referring to the fact that you can get in the co-pilot seat these days with what many would consider a low amount of hours, whereas pilots of Capt. Sully's generation tended to come from the military with more experience by the time they sat in the cockpit of a commercial airliner. That specific experience and the nature of the military flying is bound to come through in an unusual situation such as the Hudson River. I'm sure given the safety culture of the industry that pilots are now facing similar scenario's in the simulators as part of routine training, practicing skills you will never need.
It's like anything, individuals have different experiences. I'm reminded of an Air Transat Incident where a maintenance error caused a massive fuel leak in the middle of the Atlantic and the aircraft ran out of fuel and glided from cruise altitude, and amazingly the pilot managed to glide it down to a relatively safe (albeit scary) landing. There were two huge pieces of luck that day: one that the Ascension Islands were conveniently placed within gliding range (which is limited for a commercial airliner as you'd imagine), and the other was that the pilot happened to be a crack glider pilot too. If any of those two pieces of luck had not been present I shudder to think of what the alternative outcome would have been. The same scenario was tried in the simulator with other pilots and not all managed to bring the aircraft in safely.
Go on - not being a pilot myself i'll happily bow to your experience and knowledge. I also will and do happily get on and take my family on any Easyjet flight. Safety concerns never cross my mind. You're far safer on the plane than the journey to and from the airport.
Wobbliscott - I think you may believe too much of what you read in the papers. I was going to jump to the defence of Easy/Ryan pilots, but had to go to work ( just landed back from Sao Paolo).
Anybody who thinks their pilots are any better than another company's is far wide of the mark. Once again it's luck - who happens to be hiring when you need a job.
The AirTransaat example you linked to - I mentioned it on P1. He would be a legend, but for the fact he ran out of fuel because he refused to believe there was a leak & blamed "The Computer". Maybe as a champion glider pilot he wasn't aware of aircraft with engines and a 200hr cadet pilot would have been far safer!! Best to never need to exhibit your immense skill!!
Terrific piece of film making. They did well with stretching the timeline. Nicely understated Hanks performance.
I thought the water and rescue scenes were particularly authentic.
Only the final showdown felt a bit pantomine and simplistic to sign the film off but forgivable. One of my films of the year and it's a been a great year.
Nicely understated Hanks performance.
😀 8)
