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I can't contribute much to this other than to say that I knew two people that comited suicide in the past couple of years.
My Uncle was the typical East End boy done good. Built up a good business, made friends with people with money. From the outside he was a success. Sadly his business had failed and he had kept it from everyone. Before anyone found out, he politely left early from his Sunday meal and hung himself.
The other chap had it all, business, houses, nice cars, but he also had deep personal issues and it was these that made him take his life.
I've always wondered what makes one man fight back and another take his life, it's not weakness.
It goes without saying that suicide is linked to some form of depression. Depression can manifest itself in so many ways that on an almost weekly basis I find myself dealing with an area of depression I haven't come across before.
One thing that is true of ALL depression is that it lessens the individuals coping mechanisms. Often the depression sufferer doesn't realise that they have an inability to cope and naturally assumes their depression just makes them feel low, worthless, lacking in self esteem etc. It is the single defining factor in depression that the ability to cope with seemingly trivial matters becomes more and more difficult. Eventually it is this element of depression that becomes all conquering and it can and does lead to an individual absolutely believing that there is no solution, that the problems they face cannot be beaten or overcome. Combine that with the more commonly discussed symptoms of depression and you ultimately end up with someone who cannot face life. Life itself becomes the problem so for some the solution is to remove the problem.
When I am working with someone who is at the point where suicide is truly the solution for them then it is an incredibly difficult battle. I can't use logic or reason anymore because they are simply not traits they have any ability to utilise. They have all but gone.
Admittedly that sounds all very doom and gloom but it is something that can be and is overcome but it takes a strong network of individuals and supporting organisations to ensure that it is successful in the long term. Sadly it is those services which are slowly being eradicated and it is now that they are needed the most. I can only speak accurately about the area in which I work but taking a 6 month period from 2010 to a 6 month period in 2012 we have seen an increase in patients who are high risk by almost 40%. We now have less resources to deal with them
I’m going to throw some thoughts into the ring, some you might agree with, some you might not. This is actually pretty hard for me to write, but bear with me.
I make no claim to be in any way shape or form a counsellor, psychologist or anything else – what I can do is draw on personal experience.
In the last 6 or 7 years, I have known of 5 suicides of friends in my larger circle. The most recent was an ex girlfriend who committed suicide just over a year ago (this happened 2 years after we split up and was unrelated to that).
I’ve noticed a pattern among the people I have known that have killed themselves – all have tended to have underlying psychological issues (which you would expect), and all have been very heavy social media users, with less “real life” interaction that what I would deem to be the average.
Back in the old days, if you felt down or low, or had a problem, you’d meet your friends, talk to your mum, actually have real contact with a person who knew you in real life and so knew you properly.
That doesn’t seem to be the case any more – you post something, often a bit vague on Facebook. People who don’t know you in real life (you might hardly even know them at all), then offer nothing by way of practical help, but more false sympathy and they almost talk you down into a worse state of mind. What you end up with is a situation where instead of your mum or your mates saying “come on out for a night out and take your mind off it” or “come on, pull yourself together a bit” and snapping you out of the situation, someone you have never met talks you down further.
All the while this is happening, your laundry is being aired in public, which makes you more unhappy, and there is likely to be some trolling going on that makes you feel even worse. Some people get themselves back on track, sadly, many don’t and we end up with another statistic.
I don’t for a second claim to have the answers – but I do know this. We need to keep an eye out for our friends and family, and if someone you know is on that slope, you need to SEE them, take them for a pint, take them to the cinema, take them ANYWHERE but get them out of that room, out of that situation, even if just for a few hours. If you can do something to try and break the downward spiral, you might just be saving their life.
The answer is to post of STW instead. 💡
In the last 6 or 7 years, I have known of 5 suicides of friends in my larger circle. The most recent was an ex girlfriend who committed suicide just over a year ago (this happened 2 years after we split up and was unrelated to that).
I’ve noticed a pattern among the people I have known that have killed themselves – all have tended to have underlying psychological issues (which you would expect), and all have been very heavy social media users, with less “real life” interaction that what I would deem to be the average.
The simple answer is it can be part of the problem for some. As I said I discover more and more 'versions' of and causes of depression every week. The fact is that anything can potentially be a cause of depression, we don't choose our psychological make-up and sadly there is no real pattern. While it is absolutely correct that those with underlying psychological issues can suffer with depression at some point in their life it is also correct that someone who is seemingly psychologically balanced can too.
We used to believe (some still do) that depression was a symptom of something but I think it is fair to say that for the most part it is not widely believed that depression discriminates.
Actually I think there's a bigger picture with many facets being interwoven.
One of those involves food and specifically what goes into it, how much is GM/interfered with for maximum yield.
Certain foodstuffs are providing an addictive effect namely the excessive use of sugar, also carbohydrates.
Adolescents have a particularly hard time and, yes I've had two to bring up. Bad diet is part of it and I do believe that their nutritional needs are quite different at this stage. Perhaps comprehensive blood tests should be introduced.
I've talked on here about my health issues. What I find incomprehensible is that the NHS were more interested in my mental state and completing a tick box exercise. GPs kept telling me I was depressed and needed ADs - much easier than dealing with what was really wrong with me cos of course they didn't know! Practices get extra points for handing these out and now we have QOFs added to the equation.
I now realise that thousands of others with the same health issues are also getting told they're depressed and, like me, GPs were told where to shove it. Indeed, some have taken their lives due to not being treated.
It's a huge and complex subject but what is really sad is that those very people who need help, ie more than being handed ADs, are just not getting it.
GM foods causing suicide. Tenuous.
Compare the prospects of youth with my generation.
70s/ A job to go to a 16, brass in pocket, free university for the ambitious/too lazy to get a job. A car, a boy/girlfriend, the Saturday night bop, prospects, plans, ambitions, part of the union = plenty to live for.
2013/ A job at ???? Begging cash off mom and dad, student loans, bank loans, sold soul, living at home (or worse), Facetwitspacephonenet thing, unattainable dreams, rejection letters, failed interviews, unwanted, American style management, stress = plenty to die for.
I haven't posted on here in ages. This is something I do when the depression gets worse - I start to withdraw from my old hobbies, social arenas etc. I've never been able to point to any specific conscious reason for doing this, it just seems like participating in "normal" life is somehow a lie, so I can't do it.
I started suffering from depression when I was 18. It was about 2 months after I started Uni, and I have never been the same person since. However, it never occurred to me that I was depressed, and the idea of suicide never crossed my mind, until one night when a good friend of mine tried to deliberately OD on various drugs. I'll never know if it was genuine or a cry-for-help, or even if there is really any meaningful difference.
But after that night, I had had the idea planted in my mind, and suddenly I had an escape route for all my troubles. If it stayed bad, I told myself, I would just off myself and be done with it. Perversely, this actually made me slightly happier, and I started to embrace the nihilism of it. I could always say to myself "I don't need to worry, because if anything goes wrong, I won't have to deal with it - I have a plan."
And this is a really important thing that not a lot of people appreciate. If someone you know has these kinds of problems, is historically troubled and depressed, but they suddenly appear happier, less stressed or worried, then that can be a huge warning. They may have just reached a sort of threshold in their thought processes where suicide is now a realistic option, and it takes away so much of the worry about the future.
I have personally been very close in the past, to the point of actually holding the knife to my wrists, but I have never quite gone over the edge.
To make matters worse, for the last 2 years, I have been trying to actually address all my problems. Except that it is incredibly frustrating, slow and sometimes backwards progress. I am at many times actually feeling worse than I ever have in the past , because now I am actually trying, constructively, for the first time in my life, and it is Not Easy.
It is so incredibly hard to work these problems through in my own head, and work out cause-and-effect relationships. Why do I feel bad? Is it biology, stress, childhood, neurology, psychology? And if I still can't unravel all the problems, even with the benefit(?) of being able to see into my own head and my own past, then it must be completely impossible for someone external to really understand the feelings of complete defeat and futility. And that is why it is so hard for anyone external to help, even if they wanted to, be they professional, amateur, friend, colleague, stranger. I get so frustrated with every professional I talk to about this, because no matter how well I think I explain things, they simply don't understand. Even when someone with problems finally admits to them and asks for help, it still feels like the treatments are complete guesswork.
It's only because I'm so stubborn, awkward and bloody-minded that I keep trying.
I will just make one comment on the "suicide as a selfish act" point that often comes out in these discussions. No, it is not selfish. What you are claiming, when you say that to someone who is depressed and suicidal, is that they have an obligation to put someone else's concerns and happiness above their own. You are effectively telling them that it is their job to extend their own misery just to satisfy someone else, and that is the most perverse thing you can say to someone so deep in their own nest of irrational despair. All it does is deepen their problems tenfold.
Wow. I didn't expect to write so much.
Wow. I didn't expect to write so much
But, what you did write was worth reading.
I will just make one comment on the "suicide as a selfish act" point that often comes out in these discussions. No, it is not selfish. What you are claiming, when you say that to someone who is depressed and suicidal, is that they have an obligation to put someone else's concerns and happiness above their own. You are effectively telling them that it is their job to extend their own misery just to satisfy someone else, and that is the most perverse thing you can say to someone so deep in their own nest of irrational despair. All it does is deepen their problems tenfold.
well said
There is a great deal of wisdom here...
I'll add my thoughts. In addition to all the issues raised so far, there are the extra issues affecting those who are marginalised through disability or economic exclusion. Before the policy was indifferent neglect; now it is hostility, harassment, and bullying, with the victims being blamed for their own fate, being accused of sponging or being frauds, having their finances upset, the goalposts moved, and those who would have the greatest difficulties in finding work; or keeping a job if they found it; expected to do the impossible, and condemned and sanctioned when they can't
It is a testament to the underlying resilience and tenacity of the people who can withstand this state-sponsored abuse that so few of them have cracked under the strain.
I will just make one comment on the "suicide as a selfish act" point that often comes out in these discussions. No, it is not selfish. What you are claiming, when you say that to someone who is depressed and suicidal, is that they have an obligation to put someone else's concerns and happiness above their own. You are effectively telling them that it is their job to extend their own misery just to satisfy someone else, and that is the most perverse thing you can say to someone so deep in their own nest of irrational despair. All it does is deepen their problems tenfold.
Very well said.
Compare the prospects of youth with my generation.70s/ A job to go to a 16, brass in pocket, free university for the ambitious/too lazy to get a job. A car, a boy/girlfriend, the Saturday night bop, prospects, plans, ambitions, part of the union = plenty to live for.
2013/ A job at ???? Begging cash off mom and dad, student loans, bank loans, sold soul, living at home (or worse), Facetwitspacephonenet thing, unattainable dreams, rejection letters, failed interviews, unwanted, American style management, stress = plenty to die for.
Not sure if this is over simplistic or not but I certainly find a lot in there to agree with.
I left school in 81, just as Thatcher was getting busy. Even then there seemed to be more options available than there are now. The thought of leaving school for a long-term career on benefits was largely unheard of. There was still a choice between education, job or career. Fast forward and we are involved in a massive race to the bottom. Who can do more for less? Save costs by eroding salary packages. Slash benefits across the board. Put education beyond the masses. Yet still tax evasion by the very wealthy is tolerated if not celebrated in some circles.
24 hour news is a constant barrage of how bad things are punctuated by stuffed suits telling us that there is more pain to come.
I suffered redundancy in August 2009. It took me 6 months to get back on track. They were mentally and emotionally bleak times. I can understand how someone could be tipped over the edge.
We need to keep an eye out for our friends and family, and if someone you know is on that slope, you need to SEE them, take them for a pint, take them to the cinema, take them ANYWHERE but get them out of that room, out of that situation, even if just for a few hours. If you can do something to try and break the downward spiral, you might just be saving their life.
This is SO important. Get someone into a situation where they are dealing with other human beings, and all those self-destructive spirals don't have room to breed. You don't have to provide an intervention, have a Serious Talk or let them cry on your shoulder. Just talk bollocks and play cards. Human contact is a great soother. It won't fix everything, but it'll make them feel like a person for a little while.
24 hour news is a constant barrage of how bad things are punctuated by stuffed suits telling us that there is more pain to come.
Yes. Everywhere.
I sometimes find myself shouting at some loathsome thing on the TV that disgusts me and I'm hardly a teenager anymore.
It must be incredibly hard for a teenager to cope with when they haven't even got around to deciding who they are and what they think, to be faced with a world that seems to be descending into a bucket of shit faster with every passing week...
GM foods causing suicide. Tenuous.
There has recently been a very strong link between violent crime and lead in the atmosphere, it is not unreasonable to believe there are other pollutants in our atmosphere/food chain/water supply that are having unexpected behavioral reactions.
I could always say to myself "I don't need to worry, because if anything goes wrong, I won't have to deal with it - I have a plan."
Very well put and something I've never been able to convey.
Coyote - you're absolutely bang on with that! Things are grim. But the problem is going forward. You have to have optimism, so people can see a brighter future. But with the best will in the world, can you see things getting any better any time soon? The question is only how much worse can it get? and its best not to think about that too hard
We live in a society where already gross inequality is getting worse and worse almost by the hour, and social mobility has gone into reverse, hading back to Victorian levels. That's unsustainable ultimately. At present this manifests itself as widespread depression and increased suicides. But there has to be a tipping point where that starts to translate into large scale civil unrest. I'd be amazed if thats not where we're ultimately heading. And disappointed
Civil unrest-- revolution is what's needed .
Only by social living, caring and sharing do we stand a chance of fulfilling our potential as humans, this selfish and mean spirited system we toil under is harmful to us all (99 % )
16SP. Extremely candid, and brilliantly put. The ultimate get out clause is so true, that's still a part of my coping mech, knowing it's there perversely makes it less likely that I'd ever use it. If I thought the bad times would last for ever without end, that would be worse.
And +1 for the 'selfish' comments. It's the opposite; someone who is deeply depressed to the point of being close to taking their own life - to carry on just to avoid the impact it would have on others, that's about as selfless as it can get.
So much is true here I cannot begin to précis it all, but it is true that we all need belief in a better tomorrow and frankly that just is not present and we all know who is to blame.
So as I said earlier in jest but also logic does dictate that rather than take your own life it would seem more reasonable to take the lives of those who have bequeathed such unhappiness to so many.
So I do tend to agree with rudebwoy, we do need a bloody revolution and soon.
a bloody revolution and soon.
Are you using the word "bloody" as a epithetic reinforcement, or are you demanding actual blood?
We want heads on Spikes in the City Wopster!!! Nothing less will do!!!!
As an NHS grunt, I've seen a fair amount of physical illness & trauma. None of it scares me asmuch as what one might loosely term 'mental suffering' - seeing people who feel that they have only one way out, and how the [i]apparent[/i] logic of that decision becomes overwhelming.
There's nothing easy to say about it, IME - except this: you are [b]never[/b] alone, however desperate you might feel.
[i]I've always wondered what makes one man fight back and another take his life, it's not weakness.[/i]
Well, not sure about that in the instance you mention. If someone previously very successful, living the life loses it all and then commits suicide, it must be out of a combination of shame and depression.
Not exactly fighting back is it? Fighting back is picking yourself up, dusting yourself down and doing it all over again!
I will NEVER curse someone who has held me up on the motorway due to a suicide attempt. Barton bridge/M60 is a regular spot.
Seeing flowers over a motorway bridge also makes me sad beyond words. How much private inner turmoil that that person was in. The agony. Unimaginable.
Amazing who would have thought it approximately half of the stw demographic have been close to suicide?
Astounding.
I'm a 29 year old guy soon to be 30, my wife of 2 years left me in August 2012 having been together 7 years before marriage. I'll be completely honest it tore me to bits, that coupled with my grandmother being extremely ill in hospital; I have certainly considered it. Fortunately I do have a great bunch of friends that have been there for me to talk / cry it out, I'm not ashamed to admit that. Every day is extremely hard, I work away in the week and being on my own isn't ideal as thats when I tend to think about things, get upset and wonder where I'm going. I'm slowly dealing with things; I was dreading Xmas being on my own but I got through it. Just got to get through February now; birthday and wedding anniversary! I haven't actually attempted suicide but I certainly have contemplated it. I simply try to keep busy and get out and about as much as possible, it's incredibly hard and different people deal with things in completely different ways.
Although I cant say anything positive as such. Imagine you are 45 and single. 29, you are bloody young. I think negativity makes us forget the possible positives. A flawed analogy but revel in your youth.
Cheers hora, I know you're right but it's hard to get in a positive attitude sometimes. I'm currently trying to get a job back home in the North West to give myself another challenge and the ability to stay in my own house, go to the gym and go play rugby. There is some light at the end of the tunnel but it may also come with additional stress with the new job, 2nd interview on Friday; fingers crossed I get it and have a new challenge to focus on!! The ex certainly doesn't help matters with dragging her feet over the divorce and the house. I'm sure I'll be ok, but at times you just get in the frame of mind where you wonder "why bother".
I dunno if I can add much useful really but I'll have a go..
augustey - please mate hang in there..
you never know what's around the corner and life has so many good surprises left in store once you've got your strength back enough to open your mind to them..
I say this as it was 20 years ago this week that I miraculously survived a very serious suicide attempt..
The last 15 or so years have been the most joyful and exhilarating, exceeding my expectations and often my imagination many times over.. and any trials I face now generally seem trifling in comparison
My problem wasn't so much one of why bother, but more one of truly believing that I had some very scary problems and that there was no way out.. I pushed my friends and family away to protect them and before long I had let myself get as crazy as a bag of rats if I'm honest..
My inner demons had grown so big and powerful that they had taken on a life of their own..
I don't know if it's helpful to the thread but any serious suicide attempt is going to have a fair bit of mental illness behind it in my opinion..
I struggled to get professional help until after the event, but I think that seeking help has been made a bit easier since then, with your GP being an important first port of call..
No-one really wants to take pills or admit that they are struggling but I think it would have helped me to find an alternative path, or at least alerted folk to the mess my mind was in..
It was certainly vital in the traumatic convalescence period that followed my suicide attempt..
I'm gonna echo what Hora said too... revel in your youth.. do some things that you know she wouldn't approve of, even do some things that [i]you[/i] wouldn't approve of..
most of all be good to yourself
My friend killed himself just before Christmas. His funeral was filled with very close and very good friends. I just wish he could have seen the amount of love there was for him before he did it.
We'll never get over it. Such a waste of an amazing man.
Leaves terrible what ifs.
If you are getting low. Please please seek help. You only get one shot.
There are so many people who love you.
You just might not be able to see it.
You only get one shot.
You mean this ISN'T the practice run? 😯
Oh no...
You have many shots at life. Its when you let wieriness colour your outlook that it puts new people/job opportunities off you.
Michelle Obama said keep getting up and try again.
Seriously, (btw , not read whole thread) in Australia a while back they realised that young suicides were rising at an alarming rate, and something had to be done.
To cut a long story short they started the Mental Health First Aid course. It now operates in other countries including the UK.
[url= http://mhfa.org.uk/en/ ]MHFA[/url]
I idea is, just as every workplace has at least one trained first aider, a trained mental health first aider should also be available.
If you're reading this, and you are in a decision making position in your business, think of your happiest employee, your hardest working employee, your longest serving employee, you're most loyal employee...and then think how you'd cope without them. Do you even know if they have serious mental health issues? Can you tell? Why not?
Edit. I'm not connected in any way with MHFA although I do volunteer for the charity MIND and hence have been on the course.
Young lad recently married,went missing on sunday from near by,a body found this morning in woods.
So very sad,he was loosing his job, must have just been to much for him.
Reality strikes nearby.
I often thinks its very difficult to understand the pressures on life the next generation feel, even those only 10 years younger, how they measure themselves and view themselves.
I think it often takes feeling secure in life to actually afford the space to stand back and see what is actually important but when jobs, lack of mortgages, feeding kids are so hard to do at times and so often the things folk are measured by its easy to see how some struggle.
Either way, until you are in a place you can't see out of its difficult to understand.
In my opinion. Young people are segregated from the rest of the population as a percentage let the rest of us down. Teenagers are left in a position where the general skills and qualifications aren't enough too get them a job they can use as a career (unless you want to work in a fast food chain for the rest of your life). Also college places are getting more and more scarce and the qualifications you get from them mean even less. I have all of the qualifications in theory too become a parts salesman. But there's nothing about. At all. I don't write a brilliant CV so I'm overlooked for jobs constantly.
Youth employment is high because older people are working longer and until they're older, leaving fewer positions open for new people.
So young people are being put into a position where they are claiming money and being denied it because they are being sent for jobs that aren't there. Putting them into a hole that's impossible to get out of.
I predict in the next 5 years youth homelessness and suicides will increase as jobs become even more scarce and more people are refused benefits. The only glimmer in the darkness is that the government will pay you JSA if you're working full time in a charity shop.
There is a very strong correlation between inequality in a society, and suicide rates. It tends to affect the poor more, as they suffer continual low-level stress from being metaphorically shat upon.
To some extent, blame Thatcher, Blair & Cameron
I attempted last year, if it wasn't for a good friend and the NHS i wouldnt be here now.
I do think it needs to be talked about more.
Youth employment is high because older people are working longer and until they're older, leaving fewer positions open for new people.
For as long as I can remember I've been criticising the constant political party bickering over unemployment rates. Unemployment is always going to rise as 'progress' and automation means it takes less people to do any given job. Sure, you can stick a few million on courses so they don't show as 'unemployed' but that only fools some of the people all the time, or all the people some of the time.
The only way to create jobs is to nationalise (and renationalise) some industries and instead of focusing on cutting production costs and raising profits, instead focus on getting people working.
Modern life can be so much harder I think. Within seconds you can be on the internet browsing someones photos to see just how very much greener the grass really is elsewhere. I'll bet some people never knew what they were missing out on until the internet showed them.
I think the pressures of exams and revision can have an impact. At 15 you're told your future relies almost solely on how many facts you can remember in one hour on a random day. At the same time, there are less and less things to aim for and aspire towards.
At the same time for me my mother had been getting more and more ill over the past few years before passing away about a month before I turned 15. At the time, I wasn't really comfortable with sharing that with people, but also wasn't good at hiding it. This led to people just thinking I was being an ass and meant I had even less people to confide in when the worst happened.
Personally, the idea of suicide to me never lasted more than a moment. I've never had faith and believe that once I die, that's it. Seeing how much of an effect my mum had on other people (the chapel was packed out of the doors) made me realise just how much you can manage, even in fifty years. I can see how others with the same feelings of isolation would seriously contemplate it though, and it was thanks to a few good, understanding friends that kept me in control of my thoughts.
Even now, nearing 18 I still can't say I feel content most of the time, but I find trying to show a happy face even when you're not means people are more likely to stick around as nobody really wants to be around someone who's always seeing the downsides to everything.
In all, I can't say I'm surprised that suicide rates are increasing for younger people. The pressures to do well in terms of studying and jobs combined with the fact that there seem to be less 'Good Things' actually happening in the world to inspire and less prospects mean that someone of that particular state of would probably take a lot less of a push now than ever before.
Oops, sorry about the essay, but I was going to either say it all or say nothing.
Well thanks to all of you for taking the time and courage to post, I must admit, I'm frankly quite staggered that so many of you have come to the point that you've contemplated it, let alone sharing that fact here, I am truly touched and don't quite know how to respond.
I guess I don't really have the balls to out my own inner thoughts on the subject, like a lot of my generation we keep a tight lid on those sort of thoughts and have the value set that we are geared to take whatever life throws at us and nothing should be so bad we would consider it, which of course is total bullshit and just the conditioning of the period.
All I would say to you really young ones, is that life will send you ups and downs and generally in equal measure, there's a little ying yang sign which kind of means that I always felt (It doesn't it's some whole other mysticism about opposing life forces) anyway I'm blathering here now, what i mean to say is there is a way out if you look for it, usually at a total tangent. Think of down curves as a spiral you just have to break out of, by if necessary doing something dramatic, (other than topping yourself) if it's a woman there are plenty more where they come from equally desperate to meet someone like you.
Ignoring the bullshit you read here on anti faith threads, you do really need to form a belief as to what it is all about and the best way to do that is study a few of the Eastern ideas (they've been around longer than us) personally i came up with a half assed theory between re-incarnation and the Force that would take far too long to explain and noone would believe anyway so pointless, it just serves me. My counsel to you would be look for something, your life does and should matter in the greater scheme of things so chucking it away is just a total waste and a set back, if you do believe in the ongoing soul thing - whatever, it has helped me. I've made and lost several small fortunes, lost a wife, father, son, mother in that order, experienced death first hand and a hint of an afterlife which re-enforced my theory and have experienced that zone, the place you achieve at the very peak of sport performance when things happen you just cannot explain why, you just knew they were going to occur before they did. The spiritual side of it, again pointless to explain to anyone other than others who have experienced it. My point, life is a great gift and there is so much to grasp outside of working for the man and taking hold of it is in your gift.
There, enough of this, I've said more than I should, this is a very deep thread, I hope there is something contained within for all of us, thank you all once again.
augustey - please mate hang in there..
A shockingly bad choice of word!