Brexit weaponised, then turbo-charged all this shit, and theres no way on earth we'd have ended up with this shower in government without it. It is literally a malignant cancer at the heart of this countries politics, that infects and destroys everything it touches. Just look at the state of this place since 2016. Its not like you weren't warned this would all happen!
You carry on with your denial and delusion if you like, but fair to say that the rest of us see it for what it is.
You voted for this. At least have the decency to own it, or at least the self-awareness to stop defending and justifying this utter cluster-****! Rwanda, and all the actions of this tawdry right-wing, racist government is on you. Enjoy! The rest of us aren't!
You carry on with your denial
😂 Lmao! No one is more in denial than you binners!!
All this shit was happening years before brexit.
Did you read the quotes from your beloved Guardian newspaper? I even put them in bold so that it would be easier for you to read them. I know that you suffer blinkered eyesight.
Choose to live in a carpark close to a post office so that the Home Office can write to you? Get a court to force the government to provide you with emergency food and shelter? "Safe havens” for asylum seekers near their home countries which would deny most of them access to Britain?
How the **** is that massively different to what is happening now? And all many years before brexit and under a non-Tory government.
But you carry on with your denial and delusion if you like, I will carry on challenging it. It's not difficult.
Is that you pretending that it wasn't possible to deny refugees their rights when the UK was in the EU?!
What the Tories are doing now isn't much different to what a Labour government was doing 20 years ago. They would still be doing it if Britian would was still in the EU. Plenty of EU member states are treating asylum seekers just as badly as the UK, some even worse.
But you keep your head in the sand and pretend that it's all to do with brexit. The truth is clearly unpalatable to you.
Well you have been reduced to getting your crayons out binners, I guess you find comfort in that. It's better than trying to formulate a coherent counter argument, something which you always struggle with.
Don't forget...... you're not supposed to eat the bloody crayons!
It can be frustrating when someone's missing of the point isn't accidental, though...
Oh jeez, I love you both guys, but can you just bugger off and fight on one of the previous threads you're already spatting on?
Oh, no, it really really is. Orders of magnitude worse.
So now we have moved from only post-brexit Tories do this sort of thing, to "order to magnitude" when compared to pre-brexit Labour.
Well you might think that forcing asylum seekers to choose to live in a carpark close to a post office so that the Home Office can contact them, getting a court to force the government to provide you with emergency food and shelter to desperate asylum seekers, and talking about “safe havens” for asylum seekers near their home countries which would deny most of them access to Britain, among other things, isn't the same magnitude as what is occurring now, I don't know, I guess it depends on your method of measurement.
But I couldn't give a toss about magnitudes, injustices are injustices, it's not a game or competition. This shit was happening when Britian was in the EU. The EU didn't stop the mistreatment of desperate asylum seekers. And it isn't stopping the mistreatment of asylum seekers in the EU member states now.
Anyway back on topic I see that Braverman has managed to piss off the Jewish Board of Deputies, that's quite an achievement for a Home Secretary who has made a big issue about being married to a Jew
https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/suella-braverman-demeaned-herself-by-criticising-the-board-says-ellman/
Balloons. Illegals could be stored in balloons 🎈
Failing that. How about a new referendum? - Boat fellas: yes/no? Then we could just move on. Job jobbed. Like brexit.
There are caves all over this country. Just sayin'
It's Brexit, Brexit Brexit.
Go back to the original Brexit thread and you'll see that for a few days everyone was discussing the pro's and con's of being a member of the European Union.
By the end of the week the penny had dropped and we all (well nearly all) realised the pro's and con's had nothing to do with it and that we were being frog marched into some fascistic nightmare by a bunch of goose stepping goons.
Yeah its all about brexit, it was completely different before the brexit referendum. Except of course for this stuff:
The Government was accused yesterday of starting "an international trade in displaced people" after Tony Blair confirmed plans to process people seeking asylum in Britain near their country of origin.
And in those days the LibDems had a left-wing leader with a conscience:
In the Commons, Charles Kennedy, the Liberal Democrat leader, challenged Mr Blair over the Tanzanian scheme. He said: "This could be the beginning of an international trade in displaced people and that would be a very bad precedent to set."
Later Mr Kennedy said the prospect had disturbing implications. "It is a matter of people who actually come to our country, who seek asylum status, are denied it, and are then being sent potentially to a third country with a cheque attached to take the matter off our hands."
And this is what the Tories had to say before their goosestepping post-brexit days:
The Prime Minister was barracked by Tory MPs, who accused him of adopting the Tory policy of deporting asylum-seekers arriving in Britain to a "far offshore" island to have their claims processed. David Davis, the shadow Home Secretary, said: "This smacks of sheer hypocrisy. The Government has continually mocked Conservative plans to deal with asylum-seekers offshore, and now it has decided to adopt them on the quiet."
And like the unworkable Rwanda scheme Tony Blair's unworkable Tanzania scheme had serious legal implications:
Oxfam warned that making aid to Tanzania conditional on co-operation with asylum applications would be illegal because it would contravene the International Development Act and the 1951 Refugee Convention.
Apart from all that things were very different pre-brexit.
So now we have moved from only post-brexit Tories do this sort of thing, to “order to magnitude” when compared to pre-brexit Labour.
Whilst I definitely said the latter I'm absolutely certain I never said the former. Get your facts right.
Well you might think that forcing asylum seekers to choose to live in a carpark close to a post office so that the Home Office can contact them, getting a court to force the government to provide you with emergency food and shelter to desperate asylum seekers, and talking about “safe havens” for asylum seekers near their home countries which would deny most of them access to Britain, among other things, isn’t the same magnitude as what is occurring now, I don’t know, I guess it depends on your method of measurement.
Well despite being objectively bad by anyones standards we didn't have them trying to make the crossing on inflatable dinghys whilst being pursued by the RN and the RNLI being castigated for resuing those in need, in fact they could actually get here at that point which was at least something (I don't remember reports of mass suffocations in lorries at that point but I could well be wrong). Furthermore, I don't remember them being "housed" in detention, sorry, reception centres unless you count the Sighthill flats as such.
[s]As for safe havens close to their homes, I'm sure there were probably a good number of asylum seekers happy with that arrangement for any number of reasons. I mean, why else would Lebanon be hosting more Syrians than anywhere else? If they are given proper support then where's the problem?[/s]
EDIT: read your last post RE: Tanzania, yes that's the same shit with a different smile.
we didn’t have them trying to make the crossing on inflatable dinghys
No, the preferred method of crossing 20 years ago was in the back of a lorry, mostly without the driver's consent. Greater vigilance has made that a less attractive means of crossing these days. I have no idea why this is relevant.
And yes, they will get rescued by the RN and the RNLI should the need arise.
Shockingly at least one EU member state won't allow rescue ships into its territorial waters, and the EU Commission cannot do anything about it.
https://euobserver.com/migration/156377
I don’t remember them being “housed” in detention, sorry, reception centres unless you count the Sighthill flats as such.
I have never heard of the Sighthill flats, where are they?
But I have heard of Yarl's Wood Detention Centre, built by a Labour government and riddled with scandals from soon after it opened, including protests, hunger strikes, deaths, sexual abuse, and the unlawful detention of children - much of it before the EU Referendum, if that is important to anyone, I think it is completely irrelevant.
If you have never heard of the Yarl's Wood Detention Centre here's a Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarl%27s_Wood_Immigration_Removal_Centre
Processing asylum seekers in another country is not the same as refusing point blank that they can apply for asylum at all. The later is a whole new level of shithousery, and is happening because of who Brexit elevated to run the country, and because they are looking to regain the electoral support that Brexit gave their party by reenergising “foreigners are the problem”, “we can’t make your lives better, but we can make theirs worse” voting sentiment. They are explicitly saying that they want to turn away people they know would have, in past times, after a long and painful delay, been granted asylum here. Will it ever happen…? Maybe not, but that’s the message to voters. “Genuine asylum seekers will be turned away, they can go and apply in Rwanda (or where ever) instead… or just disappear… not your problem, not our problem, somebody else’s problem… Rule Britannia!”
There was a tory on Question Time last night who blamed the econonic situation on 'Labour's' economic crash of 2008 (not the global economic crash birthed in the US).The audience laughed at her.
That's you that is ernie.
is happening because of who Brexit elevated to run the country
The Tories were running the country before the EU referendum as well as after it. Brexit didn't elevate them to power, although Labour calling for a second referendum undoubtedly helped them.
Everything the Tories are doing now with regards to asylum seekers they would have been able to do if Britian was still in the EU, it's nonsense to suggest otherwise.
Denmark's policy towards asylum seekers and refugees has become notably more hostile in recent years.
https://www.thelocal.se/20220831/sweden-democrats-launch-plan-to-bring-asylum-migration-close-to-zero
"This should mean close to zero asylum immigration," the party's leader Jimmie Åkesson said, after announcing that a study carried out by the party had found that Swedish law was currently above the most restrictive levels allowed by the EU in several areas.
Neither Denmark nor Sweden have left the EU.
That’s you that is ernie.
Yeah that's hilarious
Ernie
Your analysis is usually very good but you have this huge blindspot to the racism that was one of the main motivations for Brexit and tbe wave of racism its unleashed. I assume this is because you are a bexiteer and do not want to admit the racist element of your fellow travellers
Open your eyes man. Your denials sre are laughable
Racist Racist Racist
You can stamp your feet and shout racist forever. Fact of the matter is that in general, people in western countries don’t want uncontrolled illegal mass immigration. For a myriad of reasons, from loss of values and national identity, to competition over increasingly scarce resources like affordable housing.
That is why the government are doing this. It’s not “for the benefit of a few gammony racists”, what would be the point of that? Elections aren’t won by appealing to the few. It’s what the majority of the public want. It’s a vote winner. Would you be happy to have a referendum on the issue? Ignoring these issues is one reason why there is a general turn to the right in the west. And yes, part of the reason Brexit happened. But it’s nothing to do with racism. Unless the meaning of the word has changed and it’s now racist to want to have control of your borders. In which case I suspect that with the exception of a few virtue signalling big hitters on STW, the majority of voters are now racist.
Agreed, the methods are ludicrous and I honestly can’t understand why they can’t get a grip on this issue without resorting to ridiculous ideas like Rwanda. Australia seem to have managed it.
Edit: actually, tin-foil hat on, I suspect they could easily get a grip on this if they wanted too. But prefer to keep it as the ace in the pack to stop the other guys getting in.
TJ
Whether racism was one of the main motivation for brexit or not is quite irrelevant. I am not discussing brexit, I am not giving any reasons why it happened. I have a long standing position of not discussing the pros and cons of EU membership on stw because I consider it completely pointless.
A rational debate on here is neither possible nor necessary - the referendum was years ago and the UK is no longer an EU member state. I know a lot of people on here have a lot of problem with that but all I can suggest is that you discuss it on the brexit thread.
The reason for the attacks on asylum seekers is because of institutionalised racism in the UK's immigration and nationality laws which go back decades, long before the UK was even a member of the EU.
And even though Tory governments have probably a record of being the most racist, and exploiting racism, it also occured under Labour governments. I know that you personally are appalled by the expulsion of the Chagossians.
I can't make you understand that the Yarl's Wood Detention Centre, for example, was built and operated when the UK was a full EU member state but that is a fact. As is the fact that everything that is currently occurring could still be occurring if the UK was still in the EU. And even worse things are currently happening in Europe - unlike Italy the UK has not banned rescue ships from its territorial waters, and unlike in Scandinavia no one is talking about "zero" asylum seekers.
What the Tories are currently doing and attempting to do can and should be reversed, EU membership is neither necessary nor would it be useful - with regards to asylum seekers.
FFS stop dragging brexit into every ****ing issue and get on with dealing with the situation, instead of pretending that it's all the fault of brexit. Even Keir Starmer has accepted that. If you can't, throw your weight behind the Rejoin party, it seems to be the only thing that concerns them.
FFS stop dragging brexit into every **** issue and get on with dealing with the situation, instead of pretending that it’s all the fault of brexit.
You know what's funny? It's literally only you that has said that. Let's just review Binners' original comment shall we?
They’re just saying it because the Brexity gammons love all this shit
I can't see anything about blaming Brexit there, more a comment on the kind of voter these policies would appeal to.
He then went on to say:
Brexit weaponised, then turbo-charged all this shit, and theres no way on earth we’d have ended up with this shower in government without it.
Which seems fair as well. Yes it went on back in the Blair days but it wasn't front and centre of party policy, much the opposite actually, - a dirty little "secret" that the right people were supposed to know about whilst the rest of us wandered about thinking everything was rosy. Brexit gave the racists a green light that it's okay to be that way, you only have to look at how people acted in the days after and the complete lack of condemnation to see that. The rhetoric has ramped up considerably since then. As for who is in charge, all the "good guys" left or were pushed out to make way for the people we have in charge now.
So stop making this into something it isn't, take your own advice and bugger off to the Brexit thread if you want to go off on a complete tangent.
Finally, you're really not making a case for Step 1 as per the SKS thread are you? If it's all exactly the same then why bother?
Sorry an' all (I tend not to open these threads) but it's hard not to want to discuss Brexit when:
...the fact that everything that is currently occurring could still be occurring if the UK was still in the EU. And even worse things are currently happening in Europe – unlike Italy the UK has not banned rescue ships from its territorial waters, and unlike in Scandinavia no one is talking about “zero” asylum seekers
A person as stupid as me might ask what was the ****ing point of it. Still, I guess we've got those massive trade deal benefits to fall back on
I honestly can’t understand why they can’t get a grip on this issue without resorting to ridiculous ideas like Rwanda. Australia seem to have managed it.
Australia "managed it" by doing exactly what the Tories are proposing - having offshore processing at massive expense in developing countries - Papua New Guinea and Nauru. And the Papua New Guinea camp was illegal...
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/06/australia-to-end-offshore-processing-in-papua-new-guinea
.
FFS stop dragging brexit into every **** issue and get on with dealing with the situation, instead of pretending that it’s all the fault of brexit.
You know what’s funny? It’s literally only you that has said that.
Wtf are you talking about? My comment was in response to TJ's:
Ernie
Your analysis is usually very good but you have this huge blindspot to the racism that was one of the main motivations for Brexit......
We were discussing Suella Braverman's racist attitude towards people seeking asylum and yet again brexit was given as the cause, the suggestion clearly being that without brexit this would not be happening, which is obviously bollocks, it was happening before brexit and is currently happening in some EU countries.
I'm sitting in the sunshine during a bike ride coffee stop, it's lovely. Go on a bike ride and try to forget brexit 💡
For a myriad of reasons, from loss of values and national identity, to competition over increasingly scarce resources like affordable housing.
Let's take a look at this.
Loss of values, what are those? Nothing is immutable and it's the sign of a progressive society that values evolve as we learn more. Those wanting to stand still will ossify and die.
National identity. That's gone since the referendum, Britain used to be know as a place of tolerance and freedom. We no longer can claim that.
Scarce resources. These are scarce by choice of those in power. We are supposedly the sixth richest economy, we can afford whatever we want if we put our minds to it.
I did not say Brexit was the cause! Brexit is the symptom
What I said was your willful blindness to the racism in brexit and in the racist outpourings it has unleashed leads you to erroneous conclusions on this sort of area. Because your fervour for brexit and your anti racist beliefs clash so badly you refuse to see the truth of this and can only deny this racism inherent in brexit exists. Thus in your eyes the motivations for the "red wall" voting cannot be racist in any way etc etc
its obvious to anyone reading this and its a huge blind spot in what is usually good analysis
Let’s take a look at this.
1: Absolutely. As long as we’re progressing rather than regressing right?
2: Bolleaux. More ‘everything bad is because of brexit’ irrelevant temper tantrums.
3: Absolutely. Totally agree. But until that happens should we be making things worse?
2: Bolleaux. More ‘everything bad is because of brexit’ irrelevant temper tantrums.
Its not a temper tantrum and its not irrelevant. Its about putting the blame where it lies
Sorry Tj. You seem to be a lovely bloke but I simply cannot take you seriously on these matters. I imagine you raging against racists and brexiteers when you get a flat on the bike.
As TJ said, he never said what you think he did.
You actually made a very good point regarding historical actions by Labour but have gone off in some daft tangent of arguing against something nobody said then getting so annoyed with everyone else about it you just start making stuff up to get even more annoyed about!
You did the exact same with me yesterday:
So now we have moved from only post-brexit Tories do this sort of thing, to “order to magnitude” when compared to pre-brexit Labour.
Whilst I definitely said the latter I’m absolutely certain I never said the former. Get your facts right.
So that's Binners, me and TJ and that's just the last 2 pages.
2: Bolleaux. More ‘everything bad is because of brexit’ irrelevant temper tantrums.
From travelling, we have lost our reputation. From inside there's a lot of hysterical culture war nonsense going on within the country.
We were known for our Sang Froid and understatement, I don't believe that can be claimed anymore.
Backs out slowly.
Calls BREXIT from the door and then scarpers...
I did not say Brexit was the cause! Brexit is the symptom
So brexit isn't the cause of Suella Braverman's inhumane rules with regards to refugees and asylum seekers, brexit is the symptom? Well that might make sense in your head but it certainly doesn't in mine.
Anyway since we have now established that brexit isn't the cause how about not bringing it up at every opportunity?
The priority is that the next Labour government doesn't use the same deeply offensive rhetoric and punitive measures against refugees that the current Home Secretary is employing, and which even some right-wing Tories are uncomfortable with.
Rejoining the EU will neither be necessary to achieve that nor would it a guarantee of success - there are quite a few EU countries which are even more hostile towards refugees than Britain.
In the meantime if you want to rant about how UK voters have become neo-Nazis and developed a racist hatred of people from white European countries why don't you do it on the brexit thread, isn't that what it's there for?
I imagine you raging against racists and brexiteers when you get a flat on the bike.
I can't agree with a lot of what you post Jambo but on that point you probably aren't far off the mark! 😉
Isn't the case that after we left the EU the French weren't obliged to take back those who travelled here illegally in order to process their asylum applications under the Dublin Regulations?
Once again
You brought brexit into the converstion
You refuse to acknowledge the racism in brexit and in the brexit voters because you are wedded to brexit and an anti racist
this leads you to make completely erroneous analysis politically because you are unable to accept the racism thats both the root of brexit and the roots of freedom racists feel to express themselves post brexit
this is not a difficult analysis and many of us see it but you are blind to it
You brought brexit into the converstion
Of course I didn't, why would I want to bring up brexit?! 😂 🤣
I couldn't have made it clearer that I believe brexit is irrelevant. In fact that's precisely what I've been getting stick for, apparently I am in "denial".
Without naming names someone mentioned "Brexit Britian" and Brexity gammons” yesterday, that's how it all kicked off - I said this would be happening even without brexit, and I gave a multitude of examples.
You think I brought brexit into the conservation by saying, out of the blue, "brexit is irrelevant"? You're having a laugh! 😂
Loss of values, what are those? Nothing is immutable and it’s the sign of a progressive society that values evolve as we learn more. Those wanting to stand still will ossify and die.
National identity. That’s gone since the referendum, Britain used to be know as a place of tolerance and freedom. We no longer can claim that.
1) don't think the UK was quite as famous for being tolerant and free as you think. Don't think it's much less tolerant or unfree after as you think.
2) tolerance is a value...
Ernie, it's been explained enough, either read what people actually write or bugger off and let people have a discussion without you screaming in the middle of another bloody topic.
Ernie, it’s been explained enough, either read what people actually write or bugger off and let people
have a discussionblow smoke up each others arses for sharing the same righteous postion without you screaming in the middle of anotherbloody topiccircle-jerk.
