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On the current them of power generation....
Tidal power about a decade ago was being toted as 'the answer' to reliable, predictable power. And that West or North coast of Scotland had some ideal locations. I read a figure that Scotland and NI tides had enough energy to power way more than the UK needs.
I was reading on holiday earlier this year about the West Islay scheme which was granted all sorts of money and permissions as far back as 2011, with work 'starting in 2019' promises in 2017. Like £millions. And a local speaking about the fact they now had turbines that could have a 2-year undersea between service life, and designs for shallower water that were nearly as easy to access and maintain as a wind turbine. The local seemed convinced it was workable and would happen.
I know at some point in that last decade the tax breaks and funding support was removed by Westminster Government.
And here we are in 2022 with none....?
So where are we now with tidal power?
Is it viable and cost effective?
What is the downside? (marine life I assume)
Is the technology there and working?
With current high price of energy, is now the time to see it happen?
What is the downside? (marine life I assume)
...you only get power twice a day!
...and it's at different times every day - pesky moon!
🙂
…you only get power twice a day!
Not if you have arrays around the coast - and you can predict the 'twice a day' for centuries in advance.
What is the downside?
Kills the Forever Wave at Falls of Lora?
Not that I ever managed to get on the damn thing....
Kills the Forever Wave at Falls of Lora?
It would make a missed roll even spicier than it currently is....
The installation and maintenance costs are apparently quite staggering, especially when considered in respect of the power generated and the potential ecological effects of both their installation and use.
Only get power twice a day? Why? Other than slack tide every 6 hours(as a very general rule) it's moving, some places there isn't really slack too.
Blue Mull sound in Shetland has some tidal generation going on for local use, and I know there's been lots of methods investigated around Orkney and the Pentland Firth.
https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2022/02/16/its-clean-its-predictable-and-its-invisible/
you only get power twice a day!
Surely if the tide is even just partially held back the turbines never need to stop turning?
I am sure there.must be some very good reasons why tidal power hasn't been exploited, but it has long been a mystery to me as to what they might be.
Negatives would be large installation and maintenance cost (currently), general lack of investment of public money, marine biology and ecology impacts so doesn't have the favour of environmental groups etc.
But personally I'd have thought oil and gas company lobbying is prob most to blame for lack of investment across many areas of alternative energy sources.
you only get power twice a day!
IT WAS A JOKE!!! 🤦♂️
But personally I’d have thought oil and gas company lobbying is prob most to blame for lack of investment across many areas of alternative energy sources.
I don't think this is a valid conspiracy tbh. The O&G companies are ideally placed to become energy companies and be the ones rolling this stuff out. Why wouldn't they?
Not any money in it for the Tories mates so starved of investment and the tories do not want Scotland to have surplus to export. Its pure politics. Holyrood cannot invest more than tiny amounts due to not being able to raise money on international markets.
If we had invested in tidal all the money wasted on nuclear we would have no need for nuclear. Tidal has had minuscule investment.
There is also the totally rigged fake market which means ridiculously high cost to access the grid if you generate electricity in Scotland
Pentland firth and sound of islay are 4 hours apart on tides. A decent array in both would provide great smooth baseload.
The tech is there. The interconnects are there. Its blocked by the tories.
Salt water is a horrible environment for moving machinery. I imagine the technical challenges (and costs) are considerable.
There used to be someone on here worked in Tidal, rode with him probably 10+ years ago and from what he said I've been expecting to see it any time.... But nothing.
Salt water is a horrible environment for moving machinery. I imagine the technical challenges (and costs) are considerable.
They manage dragging $$billions of oil and gas out of the sea.
I don’t think this is a valid conspiracy tbh. The O&G companies are ideally placed to become energy companies and be the ones rolling this stuff out. Why wouldn’t they?
Ill follow this with this quote.
Not any money in it for the Tories mates so starved of investment and the tories do not want Scotland to have surplus to export. Its pure politics.
Although it's not just Scotland, wasn't there a plan / gov feasibility study for a tidal generator across the river Severn at some point in the 90's?
The tech is there, it's seems a damn sight simpler to me than oil and gas extraction. The problem is the infrastructure needs development & the political and commercial systems we have in place are too comfortable with more traditional energy investments which are making vast sums of money.
^ the Severn barrage is very different from open channel/flow of the sea proposals for much of Scotland I think.
I also know there was a European research hub for all this on one of the northern isles.
It may be as TJ is saying, a lack of political will, as much as any cost and technical challenges.
They manage dragging $$billions of oil and gas out of the sea.
Different challenge - the moving parts of oil platforms are out of the water aren't they?
Although it’s not just Scotland, wasn’t there a plan / gov feasibility study for a tidal generator across the river Severn at some point in the 90’s?
Severn barrage and Swansea Bay barrage have been talked about for years but they are potentially hugely environmentally destructive, removing some internationally important sites for migrating birds.
I don't think they have much in the way of moving parts underwater though do they Jimmy?
I've just read an article which pointed out noise pollution from turbines and its possible affect on marine mammals - I'm out. I recall reading once how whales used to be able to communicate with each other across oceans but no longer can due to noise pollution from ships.
Surely the source of reliable renewable energy must now be down to geothermal energy? We might not have the technology yet but I can't imagine that in the future it won't be relatively easy to drill however many miles necessary to make geothermal available wherever necessary. I know that Southampton has access to geothermal energy but much deeper boreholes throughout the UK must surely one day be possible?
Tidal barrages are much more problematic ecologically and infrastructure wise. There was also the cardiff bay barrage that was killed off.
Tidal flow we have two perfect sites. Pentland firth and sound of islay. We could be generating significant baseload in much shorter times scales than for new nuclear at much lower financial and environmental cost.
Its purely political and anti Scottish pitical at that.
The tories intend Scotland to be dependent on english electricity. Thats why Scotland has not been allowed to have any investment nor now has no blackstart capacity
the pilot in Strangford lough was pretty successful in generating electricity, then it was decommissioned. possibly that was the intention all along but no sign of a replacement
You can use lagoons to smooth out/control the power cycle. See David Mackay's book.
There are some places (around Shetland?) with really strong powerful flows that could be used. No I don't really know why there's so little apparent progress. But it all costs money and may have significant environmental impact. Maybe wind is cheaper and easier? And solar has a really high energy density compared to most other renewables, plus no moving parts.
don’t think they have much in the way of moving parts underwater though do they Jimmy?
The best looking prototype imo is the turbine in a barrel. Its all underwater including the generator.
I’m not so sure the conspiracies and political blame game are the reason, in most cases we are looking at pre current gov. Any investment will have to wash its own face and if the sums don’t add up it won’t happen. Goodness I did an A level coursework piece on the Severn Barrage, that was a while ago!
I just dont think the generation yield is anything like what it needs to be for the capital outlay.
It’s a shame, I’ve been in Plockton all week and you can see and feel the energy but without a barrage it’s going to be tricky to harness enough. Not so sure a barrage anywhere would get past the first local engagement meeting!😂
I remember visiting La Rance when I was about ten, but unless you are prepared to barrage estuaries like the french commercial tidal is a long way off. maybe never. bit like wave power, lots of prototypes about but very few can get the funding to bridge from demonstrator to commercial.
offshore wind is where the money seems to be at right now.
Seems the bedt sites for tidal power don't balance each other out so there are large spikes in generation twice a day along periods of zero generation.
http://euanmearns.com/swansea-bay-tidal-lagoon-and-baseload-tidal-generation-in-the-uk/
Tidal looked to be more expensive than a combination of wind and nuclear.
the severn barrage will never happen. for a start, they'd spend most of their time emptying mud out of it. I've been out on the port of bristol dredger and the mud there is amazing.
there is no seabed as such, the mud just gets thicker and thicker. they define a nautical horizon instead which is the density of mud a ship can drive through. ~250kg/m3 from memory.
Had involvment with the Pelamis Wave Generator Pelamis which won loads of awards and ultimately went bankrupt
Same guy from Pelamis is now in Orbital Marine Power hich ive had involvement in Orbital for a new tidal generator.
Been involved in a few concept studies for others which never got to sea trials.
They attract funding, get to sea trials, then run out of funding from my experience.
Tidal looked to be more expensive than a combination of wind and nuclear.
A barrage is very different to a turbine in open channel.
Tidal flow we have two perfect sites. Pentland firth and sound of islay.
They are perfect in that they have some of the fastest tidal currents in the World.
However, the challenges of operating offshore construction vessels in these areas are massive, so the installation and maintenance is extremely difficult, almost impossible on a large scale. This also makes it extremely expensive.
Will they ever overcome the challenges? Possibly, look at the difference in early offshore oil and gas and what they can do now. However, there has been achieved with massive investment and encouraged by massive profits.
encouraged by massive profits.
With the current energy prices, are we not there yet?
Also - I was in northern Spain at a wave power station. It wasn't huge, but seemed to be making a good chunk of the energy the small town needed.
Lots of bold claims about this new form of tidal/wave generation but certainly looks promising:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/wave-magnet-renewable-energy-swel-b2156572.html
Matt. I think that might have been pelarmis? Commercial scale trial. Scottish company thats gone under because of lack of investment. One of the oil companies took a stake then pulled the plug once oil prices rose. Uk government refused to invest anything. Holyrood did what it could and i think a small R& D group is left.
20 years development gone on the whim of an oil co
We have the tech ready to go. Its nothing new or revolutionary. It just needs investment. There are numerous designs all working at trial scale
I don’t think this is a valid conspiracy tbh. The O&G companies are ideally placed to become energy companies and be the ones rolling this stuff out. Why wouldn’t they?
An oil co. killed pelarmis.
Not gone, is it though they learnt that it wasn’t viable or profitable at that point, didn’t they!
Maybe it is profitable now, it may see a resurgence.
Its bssically dead pelarmis. Could be reinstated i guess.
I read a figure that Scotland and NI tides had enough energy to power way more than the UK needs.
David MacKay reckons we could get ~ 10% of our power needs from tide - http://www.withouthotair.com/c14/page_81.shtml.
Swansea Bay barrage
Isn't a barrage, it's a tidal lagoon and would have sod all impact on migrating birds. Same as the one proposed in N Wales.
If there was some big oil conspiracy to kill off the wave/tidal power technology then the same thing would have happened to offshore wind. They haven’t.
Floating offshore wind will make wave/tidal even more unattractive as an investment.
Some bold claims being made by someone who read about it on the internet but with zero experiance operating in that environment....
For those that haven't read it I'd heartily recommend Without Hot Air, it was linked on the previous page. I'd also recommend Renewable Energy by Stephen Peake if you can find it. I have a pre-publication version of the latest edition if anyone would like it as well as an older edition (but I would warn that the older one has been vastly updated though still largely relevant) as well as the old edition of Energy Systems and Sustainability.
At this point I should point out that wave and tidal are two very different beasts. Tidal is lunar and predictable, wave is solar and far less so.
The tories intend Scotland to be dependent on english electricity. Thats why Scotland has not been allowed to have any investment nor now has no blackstart capacity
We do have black start but thats reliant on Cruachan spinning up, connecting to Peterhead and it subsequently firing up. Obviously this is a hail Mary rather than a proper plan.
Surely if the tide is even just partially held back the turbines never need to stop turning?
Tidal flows tend towards being sinusoidal - there is a period of peak flow around half tide, followed by periods of not-much-happening inbetween. The turbines could be turning, but they won't be doing much around slack water.
Salt water is a horrible environment for moving machinery. I imagine the technical challenges (and costs) are considerable.
That would be my intuition as well
I know everyone is going full itat the government fault but are there any installations else where In The world of a good size? How are they doing?
Tidal fkow runni g in Aus iirc. Trial but at conmercial scale
The proposed tidal power scheme in the Severn Estuary has popped up in Private Eye several times over the last few years. I can't remember the exact details, but I think that there was an insinuation that there may have been some improper lobbying.
There is a large scheme being planned for the Isle of Wight that appears to have been granted planning permission /government approval
And
Tidal lagoons at commercial scale working as wellfrom memory in France
Why is it few is any of them get beyond *trial* at what ever scale .....
-and none of the conspiracy nonsense - facts only please.
If I had a penny for every time I've seen a new "tidal is the future company" on the news .... I'd have about 1.62.
Yet the active projects are minimal in comparison to the trials.
Lack of investment the french tidal one ( think it France) is commercial scale.
Strangford lough ran for a longntime
Its lack of political will thats the main issue and few countries have the right conditions for tidal flow. Scotland is rare in that it does.
10% of uk power neefs possible is the low estimate from a aceptic. Thats got to be worth having
We get a new bit of ‘trial’ kit dropped into Milford Haven or Ramsey Sound every few years here.
Local kids get a school trip and the local paper has a photo of them next to a tidal turbine/wave generator/magic buoy on the dock.
Then…nothing. The new office closes, the 100s of ‘good jobs’ don’t appear and we carry on being a county in the thrall of our oil refinery. Strange that: life in Pembrokeshire I guess.
I nearly wrapped my sea kayak around a very large yellow ‘minion’ buoy in Ramsay Sound earlier this year. The energy in a tidal flow is staggering and terrifying. Harnessing it isn’t easy but it seems so necessary these days.
EDIT: Exhibit A: https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/19752527.biggest-investment-generation-tidal-power-welcomed/
Is it chancers, politicians or NIMBYS that kill these?
EDIT EDIT: honestly I’ve had to stop. Google ‘“western telegraph” tidal’ and see pages and pages of results. It’s depressing.
So it's tidal barrages your proposing rather than stand alone tidal generators that have been going to trial and failing* to commercialise.
That would fit in with your assertion that it's proven technology rather than the constantly in development currently.tidal generators.
How ever the environmental issues associated with tidal barrages are not so easy to get around
No i prefer tidal fliw for the reasons you state.
Tech is stll available and ready to go. How long was strangford lough running for?
Yes tbe seas off Scotland make installation and maintenance difficult.
The fact remains that tidal has had miniscule investment compared to nuclear but has the potential to generate much mre cheaply
Iirc there are tidal flow setups in place as well
Why is it few is any of them get beyond *trial* at what ever scale
That's what I can't help thinking. Me thinks complicated thing is complicated and there is no world conspiracy.
Some projects fail technically but most die for lack of investment. See pelarmis wave generation for a classic example. Killed off by an oil company who invested then dumped
When I was at university 25yrs ago studying marine science, wind and tidal power was a big topic, offshore wind was barely mentioned.
No one is denying the energy resource is there but as mentioned above, wave and tidal have both consistently failed to bridge the valley of death.
I may be biased as I’ve just started a job working in offshore wind development but that’s where all the money is going.
For a technology to be successfully industrialised it has to be scaleable and replicable. One off implementations are staggeringly expensive. Offshore wind is successful as there are a few different types of turbine and footing, but they can be used in a variety of situations with small modifications to limited parts. Tidal is site specific and so requires huge, almost complete redesign for every situation. Coupled to the environmental surveys, you can imagine the costs being similar to those of building a nuclear plant.
Yes jambo. Ive been following pelarmis in detail as they are local to me. They started to scale up for production. Took over a site in leith docks then the oil co pulled the funding. I also know folk who worked for them. Yes a small remnant was saved but that production facility remains empty
So, as far as I can tell, pelamis IP is owned by wave energy Scotland, a government agency, and the hardware is owned by Orkney council.
Where does the big oil conspiracy come into this? I’m genuinely curious?
2014
One of the big oil companies took a large stake. Promised huge funding then renaged on it. This was as pelarmis was scaling up for commercial levels of production.
Scots government saved what they could from the wreckage which is what is left now
I dont think conspiracy btw. It was a commercial decision based on cost cutting by the oil co due to falling ( not rising as i said earlier) oil prices
If it was viable, why didn’t someone else step in?
The Strangford one spent quite a lot of its life like it is in your photo. Tides through the Strangford narrows are sort of like a lagoon, plenty of flow and quite a distinct slack water. There is a floating test bed/research rig now in place on the Portaferry side.
It was a commercial decision based on cost cutting by the oil co due to falling ( not rising as i said earlier) oil prices
Strange decision to make in 2014 having been invested in it for 12 years through out the major financial crash and subsequent oil crash to remain in for a further 6 years prior to declining to enter the next round of funding suggests it's slightly different in the real world to your conjecture on events.
(Just looked at the investment rounds to determine who the oil co was )
Trailrat. I think the issue was funding needed to be scaled up significantly and the oil co was cost cutting.
But im at the limit of what i know
I was using pelarmis as an exampme of why these companies need long term government funding not short term. Its an example of how investment decions can be devastating
Twodogs - so that's another attempt by mark shorrock and his wife, julie davenport, to keep this alive when it's a commercial non-starter.
He owns a quarry in Cornwall which would supply the stone/rock armour required for the breakwater but the parish council which covers the quarry rejected his proposal to them as it, effectively, attempted to strong-arm them into supporting his extraction plans.
He's persistent and knows massive profit combined with low risk when he sees it.
He's been pushing this and similar schemes - unsuccessfully - for years.
There is no conspiracy theory about tidal power generation.
It's quite simply an incredibly difficult environment.
Anyone with any knowledge of subsea and offshore construction would understand that.
Once the current speed exceeds 3 knots most operations are untenable, which means that the working windows are very short.
Never mind installing and maintaining the turbines, just trying laying the export and array cables in the Pentland Firth.
But if you want to think it's an anti-Scottish, Tory, oil & gas agenda, then go ahead.
I have worked in marine energy development for many years, O&G, wave, tidal and wind, this thread is devoid of facts 😉
You can find interesting information by reading for example renewable industry news websites, not random newspaper or anti-renewable websites. Probably some good videos on youtube again if they come from the industry, not random accumulated content clickbait nonsense. I'm sure there was a good one about Henrik Stiesdal and the story of wind power through to offshore wind over the decades but I couldn't find it on a quick search.
Many companies have tried to make tidal stream power work all around the world, it's still essentially a new/unproven technology so reliant on funding from private and public sectors, however with poor government support it is not a desirable thing to invest in so many companies simply lose funding after a few years or don't get enough to make good progress. Working offshore apart from being technically challenging is incredibly expensive, the vessel costs are eye watering, some of the big WTG installation vessels we use are hundreds of thousands of dollars a day. Even if the technology was proven it takes many,many years to pay off the devex and capex costs and actually start making money, so proven technology and government support are needed, to simplify the financial challenge side a bit. Floating wind will open up a new set of financial viability challenges for the industry.
The Meygen tidal power development off the north of Scotland has been operating for a few years but I think this year they've had problems with some of the generators and have been having to try to raise money just to get them installed on site again after repair. The Orbital device gets around a lot of the issues of fixing them to the seabed but has to deal with issues like waves as it is on the surface.
If you want to learn about the environmental impacts the EIAs for some developments should be available online. Pelamis wasn't killed by oil companies or the tories and there is no conspiracy.
It’s quite simply an incredibly difficult environment
This.
Placing anything underwater is complex, placing something under the sea is even more so. Putting turbines, generators, power systems etc underwater and expecting them to work day in day out for years on end is really difficult. High initial cost, durability, maintenance issues and operation costs that result tend to be the real killers so no conspiracies there, unfortunately its just engineering and economics tbh.
Rance near St Malo is basically a estuary tidal dam (works very well BTW) and crucially the turbines are able to be isolated by sluice gates and easily accessible for maintenance. Trying to do this at scale in open sea/open water is really tough which is why a whole slew of open water/ocean turbine generators have tended to stay as proof of concept experiments. Barrage/dam based systems are much better in this respect but something very big such as the proposed Severn barrage has a lot of downsides, not least the initial high cost, issues with ships having to access Bristol and Newport docks and having to mitigate flood surges from the Severn and Wye rivers. Not impossible but definately not straightforward or easy to do...
However, building and operating a large offshore wind farm is a piece of cake in comparison
I'd say the comparison with nuclear (and hydro) is very fair, similarly large up front costs and a long payback term, IIRC the Galloway hydro scheme took something like 50 years to pay for itself.
Tech is stll available and ready to go.
I wouldn't say so for reasons already highlighted. If it is ever to get off the ground it's going to take a major goverenment stake as any commercial operation is going to run a mile. Couple that with our terrible grid charging system and that's why these things never get past the testing stage, they're just not commercially viable.
I never said there was a conspiracy. Its just the aims of the oil companies and Westminster are incompatible with providing the long term funding tnese projects need.
SNP are not much better but they simply are unable to access the funding. There was an attempt to raise funding via issuing bonds a decade ago ( for a variety of infrastructure projects) that was killed by Westminster
Cock up not conspiracy
Its very telling that i get accused of making statements i have not. Its almost as if thete is no logical way of refuting
tjagain
Full MemberAn oil co. killed pelarmis.
Posted 19 hours ago
You wrote that which both a direct quote and is factually incorrect. The market forces killed it. It just so happened an oil company was able to provide the significant backing to get it moving. If there was a viable commercial case then they would still be in that market. It's in their interest to divest massively from oil both politically and financially
Yes i said that now read it again in context. Its factual. I do not say conspiracy. The oil co was looking to make short term savings and pulled the funding thus killing the company.
Its very telling that i get accused of making statements i have not.
Statements like this suggests that you are claiming a conspiracy:
tories do not want Scotland to have surplus to export. Its pure politics.
And :
the totally rigged fake market which means ridiculously high cost to access the grid if you generate electricity in Scotland
"Totally rigged fake market" suggests a conspiracy surely - what is your definition of rigged and fake?