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What you're paying per month is I assume the CSA calculated amount - if so this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'need', it is purely the law/rule and based upon earnings and split of responsibilities.
Anything else you 'both' spend is up to each of you plus an agreed split of additional costs where one of you thinks both should pay. The school trip for example, if you don't agree with your child going, then say so. In the same way she might not agree to something you think your child(ren) should be doing, and then you can pay.
For the teeth, if they need doing then get another quote and discuss.
Yes, I've been here (2 kids at 2 & 3) - the key thing is to take the emotion out.
And for reference I was paying £500 per month in the late 90's, with access whenever I wanted but as my job required vast amounts of UK & international travel, usually only had then a couple of nights a fortnight.
As DrP says, what she is spending her money on is entirely up to her but the £400 is specifically for the child<u>,</u> as it's not her money I think it's something that should be completely transparent. If it were to go the legal route then you couldn't get away with making a number up.
Could it be paid into a separate account, as you are 50/50 and it's not for day to day costs then having transparency over what it's being spent on doesn't seem at all unreasonable. If it wasn't a 50/50 split then it wouldn't be so clear.
Hannah.. I’m not asking her how she spends HER money…
… and yet you thought it relevant to mention the car and handbag.
I know things can lost on the printed page but this comes across more about control than the money itself.
and yet you thought it relevant to mention the car and handbag
I think I mentioned this as , in the absence of visibility on the kid 'additional' costs, I suspect this is where the kid money is going... 🤷♂️
What you’re paying per month is I assume the CSA calculated amount
No...cos the CSA (Now the CMS... but it's the same..) would say my payments are ZERO, as we have a 50:50 shared care.
Thus it comes down to, in my mind anyway, the 'agreed between us' £400 per month is for school uniform/trips/school lunches etc.
I would have been happy to have a discussion every month about "uniform cos X, meals cost Y" (for EACH of us, as I still pay for school trips etc as I'm olthe only one on my daughter's squid-pay app!) and then we split this cost..but she didn't want to have that level of communication, so we agreed the sum of £400 that should more than cover it.
DrP
if the split is a genuine 50/50 then you should pay her zero each month. As you are both sharing the daily 'running costs' of children.
The trips etc should defo be split, but equally discussed... she cant just sign them up and expect you to pay 50% (although it sounds like you can afford them, a bit of common courtesy doesnt go amiss).
Likewise with the dental stuff, as many have said the NHS can do it, or if there are certain circumstances that you need to go private, it needs a discussion, not a demand.
how old are your children by the way?
As someone who had their child used as emotional blackmail, i may be a bit bitter when i hear these things..... But thankfully, mine is now wanting to move in with me, so maybe i will ask her mother for monthly payments 😛
OK so how about you reverse the £400 and say you will cover the cost of school uniform/trips/school lunches etc directly and she pays you £400 a month. You will not ask for more but the actual spend will be reviewed jointly at the end of each year and the contribution adjusted for the following year?
This is what i've emailed to her over the past days..!
"I was thinking - if you say that the £4800 per year I give you to go towards the kids' uniforms and clubs and school trips (along with your expected similar contribution) DOESN'T quite cover it and leaves you short, I'm very happy for the arrangement to be swapped:
How does it sound YOU transferring ME £400 per month (into a separate account solely for the kids) and I'll manage as you do, but I'll also meet the extra costs you speak of (I.e I promise I won't ask you for ANY additional money)?
I'll pick up uniforms, cover meal fees, and we can swap the beavers/scout payment.
I'll even use it to cover the cost of scout trips when the kids would usually be with you.
Thanks for giving it some thought"
And again yesterday...
"I have suggested to you that if you are unable to manage this fund appropriately, then I am willing to manage it (by you transferring me £400/month) to cover costs such as this.
You cannot have it both ways - you cannot keep receiving a significant sum for £400/month, and keep asking me for additional money for things like this."
Guess what her reply has always been....! (tip...it wasn't "sure.. YOU try being out of poceket for once..."!)
DrP
I just want to check I’m not being the dick here??!!!
Don't think you're being a dick, but you probably have screwed up by not doing your research on her before getting shacked up.
Don’t think you’re being a dick, but you probably have screwed up by not doing your research on her before getting shacked up.
LOLZ!!!
I mean, we got together like 17 years ago, and I left her 4 years ago... How was I to know at that time eh 😉
DrP
So it's an agreement between you and your x not the courts or CMS?
If so do what I typed stick it a fund for the kids and thank me later. (About 18 years later).
Just buy the uniforms yourself ECT it won't cost that much
To me ( and i have no real experience in the area) your email sounds very passive aggressive and the whole tone feels " off"
You are not giving her money. You are giving her a contribution to the costs of the kids
Imo either get everything done by csa or go back to mediation for a watertight agreement. A good deal is one where everyone is happy
Sometimes in these situations you just need to bite your lip and move on keeping things as amicable as possible, getting into the nitty gritty of it all is not going to help either of you.
You are not giving her money. You are giving her a contribution to the costs of the kids
Oh i completely agree... but in 'real practical' terms, I am giving her the money to manage. And my email probably is passive aggressive, but that's because I'm getting fed up of her demands!
Sometimes in these situations you just need to bite your lip and move on keeping things as amicable as possible, getting into the nitty gritty of it all is not going to help either of you.
Again, I agree - I like to think I do this (buying new school shoes after the summer hols, despite 'technically' this being the responsibility of the 'kid account holder'...)..but when it's a £5k dental bill I'm being asked for, enough becones enough!
EDIT - the £400/mth IS written in teh court finalised financial settlement agreement... you HAVE to have somehting in that 'box' according to the mediator we used, so we agreed on this amount (for 2 kids..slightly less when eldest turns 18) to cover additional costs.
DrP
says she doesn’t need to explain anything to me…
She's absolutely correct.
Conversely, you don't need to give her any money.
… and yet you thought it relevant to mention the car and handbag.
I think it's relevant information in so far as it's an indicator of her financial security. I reject the common Daily Mail-esque narrative that rags on low income households because they have a wide screen* TV when for all we know that's all they have. But if she's swanning about in a - I don't even know how much a Tesla costs, fifty grand? - motor with a £5k handbag, then coming to her ex cap-in-hand wanting thousands for private dental treatment, to my mind this plants her firmly into "taking the piss" territory.
(* - like there's any other kind any more)
I don't post here any more but I pass through occasionally. I've met very few divorcees who are always rational and reasonably in how they deal with the other half and you aren't changing that view. Nobody ever solved arguments by email (or in internet forums - hence why I don't bother posting!). If you have a dispute and aren't able to solve it amicably between you - go back to mediation. However I think you've forgotten the most important people in this - your kids...
but when it’s a £5k dental bill I’m being asked for, enough becones enough!
1. Do you think the work is needed?
2. Does your kid think the work is needed?
3. Is £5k reasonable for what's needed (sounds a lot to me - and in my limited experience in a different part of the UK if the teeth were that bad it would qualify for NHS work).
4. Is there some other reason that makes this orthodontist preferable (e.g. if i had realised how much of a PITA taking my kid to the "nearest" NHS orthodontist who allocate their appointments at random, without consultation, in a location we can only get to by driving I might have preferred to use an orthodontist elsewhere that he could get the train/bus to himself rather than disrupt my day, especially if private patients got first dibs on convenient times!). If a factor like that is involved - can you help with logistics.
What nobody here will know is how cash-rich or otherwise you are. If you were still married (happily or otherwise) and these costs came up would there be any serious debate about sending them on ski trips or for orthodontics? If the answer is, "no, we would have the funds [usually either can be paid over time - there's no need to miraculously find a lump sum] and giving our kids the best has always been our priority" then you need to think about what has changed. Should she be contributing too - possibly, but none of us (likely even you!) actually know her financial position. It is unlikely she will welcome advice from an ex on budgeting, especially one who sends passive-aggressive messages. A more constructive approach might be:
"Sorry if I came across as hostile, of course I want to help the kids, I was just surprised by the values involved and need to get my head around what's needed and when, so I can make my fair contribution. I'm still getting used to budgeting for just me. Perhaps we could have an open and frank discussion about all the costs for the kids and see if that £400/month is really enough for my share. Given the way inflation is going, we should probably try to work out a budget for each year so we both can see what will be needed when".
yeah, that's a prettyy good response and viewpoint.. thanks.
I honeslty feel i'm being blackmailed TBH!
DrP
As Poly says (and very well puts it), ive never met many couples who have broken up amicably, and the subsequent years while the children are still children descend into psychological warfare and oneupmanship.
All you can do is to ensure the children arent affected as best you can and make sure that they dont suffer in this melee.
ive never met many couples who have broken up amicably, and the subsequent years while the children are still children descend into psychological warfare and oneupmanship.
Well, just so you know, there are some who are capable of being completely amicable. And put the kids first.
Well, just so you know, there are some who are capable of being completely amicable. And put the kids first.
Hmm.. I'm sure you don't mean to pass comment on my care for my kids, but it kinda feels that way... However, these 2 factors (divorcee amicability, and individual parent care for the children) can be mutually exclusive...
Handing over wads of cash to my Ex when she demands it isn't necessarily in the best interest of my children, nor me.. even if it's touted as 'in the kids best interest'.
What if the role was reversed.. what if I said I wanted to buy my son a new TV for his room at our house, and asked HER for half the cash... would you berate HER parenting skills for telling me to do one and fund it myself (which, of course, I DO fund myself, and DON'T assk her for money for this sort of thing!)
Additionally - despite the ex threatening to 'tell the children all about this and how terrible I am', I can reassure you that I don't involve them in any of this myself.
DrP
Anyway - i came her to get alternate views and opinions than my own, and have a few take home messages to think about.
Thank you all.
DrP
agree with poly and in a similar vein - it looks to me like have different views on the payment situation and the 'arguing' from each saice isn't going to get anywhere.
I would look to keep it simple and set (reset?) the expectations - and then stick to the line and let her know along the lines of
Principle 1 - The £400/month is £400 above what a standard 50/50 settlement would get and is made in good faith to help (not cover) costs for every day and one off expenses.
Principle 2 - If there is a significant additional expense for then we can consider extra contributions but
a) we must agree the commitment to pay in advance
b) we agree what the terms of my extra pay is
i.e. what poly says
Principle 3 - It is agreed and understood that we are both doing what we can to support the kids. We should leave the kids entirely out of the 'who pays what' discussion - this is matter is entirely for the parents and should be kept that way.
i would have thought it was obvious that the kids have no involvment in these discussions, which DrP has said that they arent. So little point bringing that up. If either parent uses them as leverage, then shame on them.
And it certainly doesnt feel like the kids are suffering or hard done by.
ultimately if a joint household income is halved by the couple splitting up, then sacrifices have to be made, budgets need to be reassessed and realigned with the new household income.
Its not a case of well i want XYZ, i will just demand the ex pays for it (whether thats DrP's ex demanding it from him or him demanding it of her).
She is already getting £400 a month MORE than she should.
Whilst we would all like to provide the very best we can, that all has to be done in a sensible manner.
She clearly likes this level of 'control' over things, hence her inability to share where the £400 a month goes or ability to discuss things further.
Whilst there might be a more diplomatic way to put things, i feel your frustration DrP and sometimes a bit of venting helps massively.
I often look back at my ex and wonder how i was in love with such a Jeremy Hunt 😛
talk to a specialist family lawyer. dont dick about.
for a couple of hundred quid it could save you loads and put your mind at rest and draw a line on other demands.
the lawyer can set out a letter for you and based on legal fact that she cant argue. It may be that shes right but only the lawyer can determine this based on your current arrangements and agreements. Be honest with the lawyer.
it defo takes a load off your mind knowing you have legal advice to back up any discussions. it did for me anyway.
FWIW, the ex and i have a joint account for each of the kids, that we can both see and use (but the accounts are actually attached to me, as it was my idea.)
We both pay in an amount every month and anything major they need (bikes, shoes, clothes, holidays, childcare) comes out of that. Day to day stuff, we generally cover ourselves.
We can both see *every* transaction made on that account and query if necessary, in the 4 odd years we've had it, i think i've asked about two transactions.
And she's asked about one, i know this, as a standing order was set up incorrectly by my bank... *facepalm*.
Reminds me, i've got to take a bit out for the clothes i bought for their holiday.
Also, when they are old enough, there will be a nice chunk of cash for them to have.
@mert
that's a great arrangement, and one I would aspire to.
If the roles were reversed, I'd be putting the £400/month into an account for the kids, using it to meet all these needs we've discussed (bearing in mind, it would have had over £25k put into it...) and then when they turn 18/16 whatever, hand it over to them...
'home clothes', holidays (with each new family) are each met by the prespective parents.
@v7fmp
Cheers!!
DrP
Yeah, we don't have the home clothes/school clothes issue here, but we do pay for our own respective holidays.
Though the ex is planning to take the kids on a big one in a couple of years, so will probably contribute to that as they'll be gone 3 or 4 weeks, and they are unlikely to get another opportunity like that.
She is already getting £400 a month MORE than she should.
What makes you say that?
Sorry not much to add other than it is probably reasonable to ask genuinely and sincerely your ex wife why the orthodontic work cannot be done under the NHS?
Both parents have cars so location of an NHS practice shouldn't really be an overriding problem unless there are other facts that you dont know of to consider with that. If its additional time and inconvenience to travel, personally I would feel a lot of time and inconvenience would be needed to justify a £5,000 offset.
Our son is 14 and has just been accepted with very little hassle for a brace under the NHS. It's a classic wired type of brace which are the only ones the NHS offer, but I understand are more effective than the clear plastic invisible types that you have to pay privately for anyway.
If there is a wait for NHS orthodontics in your area, if it is just a brace that required and your son isn't suffering medically or pain as a result then at only 12 there is still plenty of time to suffer a waiting list.
Our son is a vian little bugger but he even said it would be madness to pay thousands for an invisible brace. He does need a brace or otherwise with the way his teeth are growing they will give him problems later on but his friends with braces all get the wired types so he isn't worried.
It meant a day off work for me to take him for the initial consultation but as I never use my holiday allowance anyway no real trouble really and it was good to spend some time alone with him grabbing some lunch and looking around the shops when done. He's just had a second visit for moulds to be taken and then it's one more visit in august to have the brace fitted. Of course there will be ongoing visits but my wife ties those into the school holidays.
It's just a guess but I suspect even most private practices dont open weekends so to pay would require a similar level of inconvenience for us as parents and often it's the same practice whether it's being done privately or NHS.
I appreciate it's not much to add on the whole who should pay for what debate but if this teeth mater has been a last straw issue, perhaps clearing up at least this one item factually and reasonably with your ex might start to help iron out the other items fairly for both.
If the roles were reversed, I’d be putting the £400/month into an account for the kids, using it to meet all these needs we’ve discussed (bearing in mind, it would have had over £25k put into it…) and then when they turn 18/16 whatever, hand it over to them…
this is a bit high horsey. you are trying to do the right thing, which is ace, but you cant tell other people what to do or how to live their lives. you need to move on. She will do things that annoy you and, quite probably, vice versa.
Get legal advice over the money/payments etc and get something in writing as an agreement you can both abide to. it will save a lot of aggro and fingerpointing.
when i was making payments it started out as a mutual agreement, to save going through the cms and because we thought we could do this amicably, but ended up formal cms agreement as it just took away all teh doubt for both of us.
@thegeneralist - as if a child stays with each parent an equal amount of time, the costs are split evenly, therefore no 'maintenance' payment is required.
Not by law anyway, so DrP's gesture of goodwill shouldnt be expected by her, she should be grateful he is going above and beyond the letter of the law, rather than demanding more.
Obviously there are moral choices that can be considered, IE if she was on the breadline and the £400 would give them a better quality of life, but it sounds like that isnt the case.
Ultimately folks can do what they like, but i am all for a fair and equal outcome in situations like this and to me, one party is taking the urine with financial demands.
as if a child stays with each parent an equal amount of time, the costs are split evenly, therefore no ‘maintenance’ payment is required.
its really bloody hard to get a true 5050 split though. just because of life.
hence the need for him to get proper legal advice. what he has provided in the past may have an impact on what he needs to continue to provide etc, standards of living are a factor as well as other bits and pieces. its a bloody minefield and an internet forum isnt really he place to get relevent advice as everyones situation is different.
The OP doesnt have to get legal on the partner but just get some formal actual advice baed on their situation and chat things through so he knows where he stands legally in the greater scheme of things. it was a huge help for me.
if a child stays with each parent an equal amount of time, the costs are split evenly, therefore no ‘maintenance’ payment is required.
Some of the costs are split. Schooliform and school trips aren't in this case. They are taken from this £400
seems to me like you need a joint transparent bank account.
and then to take the time to review it.
Equal money goes in monthly, you can both take money out to pay for the kids bits and bobs
query anything that is suspected inappropriate.
@thegeneralist - but is it? as far as i can tell, DrP pays that money, but then also covers lots of other stuff. Yet she is still asking for more. If school clothes, trips etc need to be split, its very easy to sort out. School trip X is costing £££, please may i have half. Plus, it must be a ruddy posh school to require nearly £5000 a year for school clothes and trips.
but, as i said, there is plenty of moral compass at play, so its not clear cut.
As @VanHalen says, proper legal advice is the best course of action.
And a joint account would seem like a great idea.
Basically.... all the best DrP, i hope you get it sorted with minimal pain!
its really bloody hard to get a true 5050 split though. just because of life.
Not really.
Just have to make adjustments and sacrifices to make sure you can do a 50:50 split.
The basic make up of mine is 50:50, as it should be. And if we need to make adjustments from the default position, it's already 50:50, so it's fairly straight forward.
Requires reasonable people on both sides of the equation though.
seems to me like you need a joint transparent bank account.
and then to take the time to review it.
i`d, for definitely, not do anything like this without taking proper legal advice.
As the nippers grow things change, life changes happen, time spent at places change, and the requirements for payments etc change also. (obviously some people are quite amicable about these things and it works well but others much, much less so)
the less you are niggly about money the more bearable the other joint parenty things (like parents evenings, doctors stuff, family meetings etc) become.
Some of the costs are split. Schooliform and school trips aren’t in this case. They are taken from this £400
£800, £400 is just his half. So actually £9600 per year, that's a hell of a lot by anyones standards.
Hmm.. I’m sure you don’t mean to pass comment on my care for my kids, but it kinda feels that way…
Sorry, hours ago now - No definitely not that - just reacting to what I read from someone else.
Since when was CMS a one way street? WTF do you pay her a single penny more when you have them 50/50? Are you subsidizing a living arrangement where she cant afford to pay for the family home they live in?
If she has a comfortable income then take it back to the CMS and get them to recalculate based on 50/50.
Regarding her spite and possible insinuations of not supporting your kids just put the money into an account for them, pay for anything that crops up 50/50 over and above and make it clear to the kids that you will happily cover anything they need 50/50 with regards to school etc.
£800, £400 is just his half. So actually £9600 per year, that’s a hell of a lot by anyones standards.
There's more than one kid. (Two?)
Cost of raising a child c£11,250 a year but that includes housing etc so £9,600 for 2 seems reasonable.
Like one of the posters said I think you need new joint back account you both pay £400 a month into and can both track the spending. This seems transparent and fair.