STW-dadsnet opinion please….. (men AND women please!)

LTB.

Oh, you did! Ermmm, nope, I’ve got nothing. Sorry.

Every bloke I know who has got divorced and has a decent income has ended in this kinda situation.

Her demands sound ridiculous and I don't really understand how these women get away with it.
One bloke at work did end up getting a childcare payment reduction when she demanded more money, he refused and it ended up back in court. They judged that he was actually paying more than his fair share and his payment amount was actually reduced.

Sorry to hear you are in this situation. Hope it gets sorted.

Godda say you may be in the wrong here. *may*

It all depends what these shared costs are...
I think lunches for our two are about 240 a month ish.
Schooliform who knows, but it sure mounts up.

I'd expect school trips to need more money TBH.

But, it all boils down to what that "£800" is being spent on... if she refuses to tell you then you may well have a point

cover the kids ‘joint costs’ such as school uniforms and school meals etc
Bearing in mind..I still have to feed/clothe/entertain/drive/heat/house etc

This second bit paints you in a not great light. Of course you gotta feed entertain, drive, heat, house them when they're with you. Obviously. But none of that is remotely relevant to your question, because your ex clearly does exactly the same on her 50%.

So leave that to one side.

Are you paying her £970 CMS plus an additional £400 on top, or just the £400?

In the face of emotional blackmail I'd be telling her to get ****ed, frankly. If she wants to pay £5k for private dental treatment, let her. If you want to fund school trips, fund school trips directly, screw giving her the money to (probably) do it.

Legally, I have no idea. I think I'd be seeking proper advice.

This second bit paints you in a not great light. Of course you gotta feed entertain, drive, heat, house them when they’re with you. Obviously. But none of that is remotely relevant to your question, because your ex clearly does exactly the same on her 50%.

It's kinda relevant...cos it's highlighting how observations her statement/ belief that 400 is ALL I contribute.....

DrP

How many kids does this £400 per month cover? Although my interpretations may be irrelevant as if i thought my wife was giving each of ours £5.50 per day dinner money and then £80 each on school clothing every single month I would probably need a lie down and a brandy. Even if lunches down south are hugely expensive, just shy of £1k each a year would be buying a lot of clothes evening during a growth spurt.
Why does the dentistry have to be private? Our daughter had wonky teeth all fixed in the nhs for nowt (at point of treatment obviously).

I'd offer to pay 50% of specific trip costs with evidence of the cost and I'd tell her to get the kids teeth sorted on the NHS, had both of ours done that way (with good results) despite isimg a private dentist ourselves.

I wouldn't stump up any more, of you do it will never be enough.

I've got this t-shirt!

I initially used to pander to the repeated requests then it got out of hand and I dug my heels in.

It's even more galling to know that the monthly payments I pay doesn't get spent on the kids in its entirety.

I did a rough calculation that I've transferred something like £47k in maint payments since we parted ways.

"But, it all boils down to what that “£800” is being spent on" - It's isn't 800GBP though is it because that 800 covers 50% of their time (with the ex) and then DrP is also spending another 800?for his 50% so the total cost per month for the children is 1600?.

This is a nightmare and I'm sure there are multiple answers all of which are going to be tough when minors are involved. FWIW I think school trips likely come into the "general use" category but a private dentist is going to require other stuff - not least do you agree with the care plan....

Its not you have given her the money. Its that you contribute to childcate costs. If she is not using it on the kids its a differnt mstter but how far does 400 a month go ?

Hang on - if it’s 50/50 on time the kids with you then you’ve presumably got half the costs - yet are paying her £400 a month anyway. If she’s paying all the school lunches / buying all the uniform / their clothes and you aren’t doing any of that then fair enough - but £400 a month is quite a lot towards that.

If it’s more than that I’d want to see a breakdown of what the money is going on.

On the dentist thing £5k is a lot at 12 years old - guessing it’s braces and the like - in which case I’d have thought the NHS would cover that for free as an under 16/18.

Trips - fair enough 50/50 - but then the £400 a month should go towards that assuming it’s not all eaten up by clothes / school lunches etc.

So no on the face of it I don’t think you’re being unreasonable.

The £400 a month you pay is just to cover uniform and lunches? all the other child costs you split evenly?

It is very easy to reduce a situation to this to just cost. However their are so many other areas of raising kids that cannot be factored directly into a monthly sum.

They may stay with you 50% of the time but they live with her so I assume she has the larger share of the parental responibilty?

I'm a single dad my kids live with 85% of the time but 100% of the parental responsibilty falls on me.

For true balance i hope you are running a parallel thread on Mums net?

You’re down to 400 through mediation, it can easily go back up to 1k a month, so worth mediating these one off bills like dental and trips.

Reasonable never really happens in this type of scenario, the only out for reductions is if she remarries soon.

Tell her your reducing the payments and sticking it in fund for the kids uni fees or whatever.
Let her see the payments into the fund each month but have no access to it.
Half each on the school trips if your ex is earnings good money.

But NO really is the hardest word to say when kids are involved.

Edit* the dental thing is hard because the waiting time by me is 18mt for Ortho work on the NHS.
So if jnr wants it done or it needs doing then maybe.

I would add it sounds like you have a half decent relationship with your ex with the mediation, shared custody, etc, I’d not let a little money get in the way of that unless you’re struggling?

There are two questions here of course (a) is what she is asking for fair? (b) can you afford it?

Tell her your reducing the payments and sticking it in fund for the kids uni fees or whatever.
Let her see the payments into the fund each month but have no access to it.

These payments are via the CMS, so do not withhold or reduce, the reduction you have already is extremely reasonable compared to some people i know, it might be worth a chat, as you're going to have a lot of large bills before the kids hit 18 (or leave higher eduction)!.

If it's CMS then your right absolutely. I'd still do it on any extra payments that are asked for the kids win win on it.
It's a crappy situation I've seen both sides for sure.

It might be worth seeing if there's a local dental university for Jr's teeth. I've had veneers replaced at no cost and in short order at Sheffield Dental Hospital - the students have to learn somehow.

If you earn more than her then offer to pay for the trips. Give the money straight to the school/ scouts whatever.

If you earn the same amount as her then split the costs.

Teeth on the NHS

Seems like the OP did pay £970 and now pays £400 to cover joint costs, thereby implying that the joint costs are actually £800 a month for her to pay out, despite the OP having them for 50% of the time. £800 seems a lot for 15days of consumables. Does she pay any childcare out of this?

I'm divorced, two kids.
50:50 custody.
Both earn an ok salary (almost the same actually).

She has savings, i have the house.

I've paid her exactly nothing in maintenance for the kids.
I can't see why i should (or would).

TBH, if she asked it'd have to be via the courts, and she'd get laughed at.

I'd be asking to see the invoices and arranging to pay my half to the company involved, not to the ex. Before that these are his kids too, so I'd ask for any such decisions to be brought for mutual consideration.

Sign up to spending £5k without me where it can't be demonstrated that its an absolute necessity and there's no other option and she would be footing the bill alone.

Are you actually going through the CMS or is it a guide and you are bound to pay maintenance by another agreement- eg the terms of a divorce settlement? If you’ve committed to pay under some other agreement, then presumably she and you signed up to it and other compromises were made elsewhere (like pension or asset splits, for example). In which case, I say, suck it up, it’ll never seem ‘fair’ to either party.

Also, I think it’s wrong (but very hard not to) to pass judgement on how an ex spends. You don’t get to say how they manage their finances - as long as the kids are being looked after. She might argue that the kids get the benefit of the Tesla, and that her handbag is equivalent to your bike. You’re separate entities now, so try and resist the urge to comment.

Overnight stays is the CMS definition of 50/50. But she’s taking the child to the dentist…do you do that? Or the dr? If she is taking the initiative on all that sort of thing, and gets the info on school trips and passes it on to you, she’s effectively doing more admin. Not that the CMS would necessarily count that, but she might in her mind.

That said, I think it’s reasonable to consider that any extraordinary costs like trips and private healthcare would be split 50/50 AFTER a discussion where both parties agree they can afford that.

Try to stick to facts not assumptions, and remember that probably both of you are pissed off and neither thinks anything is fair. You just need to find a way to agree to a tolerable degree of unfairness, alongside meeting any legal obligations. Imagine a conversation a few years down the line when your kids are adults: would it look to them like you were just keeping score, or were you trying to find a balance between what’s good for them and what you can afford? The second is what every parent does, the first is what divorced parents sometimes do.

Im probably missing something but how is it you pay 400 pm whilst splitting 50 /50 child care? Could you sort out the uniform etc and she pays you 400 pm? It seems you are over paying on the uniforms and she is splitting the other costs as per the 50/50 agreement. IANAA

They may stay with you 50% of the time but they live with her so I assume she has the larger share of the parental responibilty?

No.. they live with us each...
I've just spent a fortune on a house for us all...own rooms etc etc...
All admin is shared... I do beaver trips, scout trips... etc etc

And CMS would now say the cost is zero, as we have kids 50 50...
Anyway...
I'm off to bed!

DrP

If she finds £400 so little then she won't miss it if you offer to stop paying it.

A sensible perspective from Hannah I think. Without knowing full details of the income of both sides, we can judge.

But kids get more expensive as they get older, especially the trips. Need to have a conversation between the two of you as to if or how you can afford to do that sort of extra activity.

I think what gets me is the money I give her is literally ONLY for extra stuff like this, given the 50:50 split...

So when I ask her where the 25k had gone, and why she needs more, and I get no answer, I get annoyed.

I even suggested she give ME 400 per month, and I'll cover all extras.. she said no...
DrP

In which case I refer you to my original answer. Consider, you're bankrolling it and she's taking all the credit. As long as you keep handing it over, she'll keep asking. She's using the kids as a weapon and that's not fair on anyone, least of all them.

This whole 'maintenance' idea hangs on the idea that man is the breadwinner and the woman is the home-maker, so she's screwed in a split. Which as far as it goes is absolutely fair enough.

But if we're pushing for equality, to close the gender pay gap, typically in a partnership both are out at work these days anyway... should we not be considering this objectively rather than just doing what we've always done? Does one earn more than the other? Are you in new partnerships?

I pay my ex a big,big chunk more than that a month, but I can assure that having teenagers isn't cheap, and if you weren't separated, that money would have gone and then some. You are not going to get rich having kids!

I'd suggest you sit down and work out exactly who's paying for what. I'd go with what Hannah said, and try to avoid the bitterness and whining. Stuff like the dentist you have to suck up if there's no NHS available,

However, it’s funny she’s just got a new tesla, and has a £5k Chanel bag…

As Hannah says, it's kind of hard to be objective about this when you try and paint this sort of evocative picture. I immediately felt irritated on your behalf before realising that I had no idea who was in the right (you don't tell me what car you drive or what silly stuff you spend your money on).

I haven't really followed your saga on here but ISTR it was a bit acrimonious? It sounds like you're still bitter? I have no idea whether that's reasonable/rational given your relationship but it's important to realise it might be affecting your objectivity, too. I suppose that's why you've asked on here.

I think the only way to play this is to calculate who's paying how much for what.

I know absolutely nothing about how this all works - however, as somebody outside looking in:

The fact that you have the kids 50/50 obviously infers that the everyday "running costs" of the kids is covered. This clearly includes regular costs like food, accommodation, heating, bills etc. The difficulty comes with non-regular, but legitimate expenses like you mentioned. These should also (obviously) be split 50/50 - but what is the mechanism for that to happen?

A good example is something like scout subs, or the costs of a school trip. I don't think it's in any doubt that these costs should be paid - but who is paying them? It shouldn't just fall to whoever gets handed the bill - as more likely than not, it will always be the same person.

I think there needs to be an agreement about what costs are going to be "extra" to the regular arrangement, but "approvable" by the other party, and everything else requires a discussion. For example:

Your ex is going to handle (and pay for) trips to the dentist, but the costs for any treatments will be split. You are going to take the kids to the opticians, but the costs for new glasses etc will be split.

However, I don't think its reasonable to decide unilaterally that 5k of dental treatments are required - and just hand the other party a bill for half - which is akin to me going out and buying a new car without discussing/agreeing it with my wife beforehand, but expecting her to pay half.

I think once you establish an understanding about what costs are being met by whom, then it should be obvious what falls outside that and requires a discussion, or doesn't require a discussion and can be spit (ie: I paid for a school trip, you owe me for half).

You don’t get to say how they manage their finances – as long as the kids are being looked after.

surely that kind of depends. If she can't cover the cost that she should reasonably be covering under the agreeeent because she spunked it on a handbag then there is an issue?

Surely there must be a joint account available for kids expenses stuff? ITs seems daft that there isn't a "here money" "his money" "the kids money" setup for such situations.

surely that kind of depends. If she can’t cover the cost that she should reasonably be covering under the agreeeent because she spunked it on a handbag then there is an issue

And this is my issue...
When she says the 400/mth i give her to cover the 'joint costs' doesn't cover it, I've asked her for a cost breakdown. Which she refused. So I literally don't believe her.

I guess look at it this way..
If you agreed there was a pot you'd each put £5k per year into for your kids, but only ONE of you had access to this pot, and tells the other it's suddenly empty... shouldn't all parties have visibility WHERE it went? Especially if you're now being asked for MORE?

DrP

She needs to be providing a breakdown of what is being spent, even if it's only a rough breakdown rather than fully itemised. It's complete guesswork otherwise.

Have you said you are willing to pay more, if she can provide the evidence it's necessary? Or have you just refused her request for more and asked for a breakdown?

Joint bank account and communicate. Get a system in place for the sakes of all concerned
EDIT: Joint bank account for the children only, clearly 🙂

She needs to be providing a breakdown of what is being spent, even if it’s only a rough breakdown rather than fully itemised.

This is an entirely reasonable request, and I'd be standing firm on no more cash for unilaterally decided expenses until it was provided.

Have you said you are willing to pay more, if she can provide the evidence it’s necessary? Or have you just refused her request for more and asked for a breakdown?

Yes.

I genuinely said "if the money I give you doesn't cover the joint costs, then of course we can talk about a different arrangement".
She gets nasty and says she doesn't need to explain anything to me...

DrP

Firstly, that’s an expensive 2%!

Never had to go through this etc, but I would have thought that the big financial decisions (such as dental and school trips) would have been discussed before committing whilst married, should also be discussed whilst divorced.

Also it’s pretty clear that the issue isn’t the money, and it’s not you’re trying to get out of support payments for your kid

In answer to you question, no, you’re definitely not being a dick. Is she?…all evidence presented demonstrates she’s a massive one

She needs to be providing a breakdown of what is being spent, even if it’s only a rough breakdown rather than fully itemised.

I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily entirely reasonable, everyone has different ways of managing their money. Some like to save a bit then buy the new boiler/roof/car, while others go for the credit/loan option. Some like to eat out as a luxury, while others like to buy a bike. Part of being separated is that you get to make your choices about these things on your own. Whether a breakdown analysis would be reasonable would depend and awful lot on the specific terms of the agreement- otherwise it’s like going back over the divorce and asset split time and time again, and no one ever gets to move on.

Hannah.. I'm not asking her how she spends HER money...
I'm asking her how she spends the money I give her for shared kid expenses, especially in the context of her asking me for MORE...A

DrP