[Closed] STW 2014/15 Rugby Thread

Sorry. Just don't really understand what you mean there

Don't see the choke tackle really being a feature of the Eng-Ire game , tbh.
it's a deffensive counter to Warrenball stylle attacks.
When an offense plays bosh-ruck-bosh-ruck-bosh-ruck-bosh-ruck-bosh-ruck... (wales/France style) then you either commit defenders to changing the cycle, or you eventually run out of defenders. You can afford to commit those players , and have to or you eventually concede.
Biggest exponents of choke tackling so far this tournament were England, against Wales followed by Ireland against France. It's a response to their style of attack.

It's gonna be far less relevant in Dublin, 'cos England and Ireland are far less likely to just send big runners on crash-ball off of good possesion.
England will want to get the ball past Burrell, out to Joseph and Watson if they get good ball. if they just go steaming into Sexton with Burrell then they're playing away from their strengths.
Likewise Ireland and Henshaw attacking Ford. It would be a stupid gameplan playing away from their strengths of Bowe/Kearney/Zebo and into Robshaws and haskells hands.
Also, effective choke tackles use more than one player to commit. It's a far riskier strategy committing these against teams who use players outside the 12 channel - like Joseph or Kearney.
I expect England and Ireland to leave that sort of nonsense to Wales and France. Try to use the ball rather than just bash through the phases.

All good points but I would expect to see billy V taking it in a bit. I would have said the same for Heaslip had he not been injured.
Whilst you're on; do you think o'donnell was hard done by getting dropped like that? He looked like one of ireland best players against italy and (this may be considered blasphemy in ireland) in better form than o'brien. Is he liekly to be heaslips replacement or doesn't he play 8?

Agree re Billy V, Haskell too.
Same applies to SOB a bit they'll both want a run at a 10. but it'll be part of an overall more varied attacking gameplan, and intended to suck in oppo back row to create a bit more space elsewhere. They'll use their weight/ strength to make sure they get to ground too.

O'Donnell was great against Italy, agreed. He's an out and out 7, probably the fastest in Ireland, and been in good form for Munster. It was harsh, but he was only ever standing in for SOB due to that pre-match twinge. Think he's done his WC chances a world of good, but if fit SOB's alwways first choice.
Problem is SOB's at about 70% fitness after long time out.
Said at the time that I'd have preferred SOB sent home rather than face France, and give Murphy/O'Donnell another crack. Now, however, I'm so glad Joe played SOB because he's far more suited to playing England, and desperately needed a game before that happened.
Put it this way, would have been worried going into the England game without SOB.
Would have been just as worried (even more so now losing Heaslip) going into the England game with him having not played for about a year and having pulled up in the warm up v Italy as his only action.

As always, looks now like Schmidt made the right call.

Ireland rely on having some decent close in carriers in the back row, bit like England. With Heaslip out SOB's even more neccesary. Healy's another big loss in that department too. O'Donnell's probably easiest to describe as a bit more of a "Tipuric" style 7.
Maybe could afford to play him if Heaslip and Healy were propper fit, or if Henderson , another good carrier, stared in place of Toner. Not sure the losses in other areas, loke safe lin-outs would be worth the change.
Just about balance of skills, really. That and the fact that SOB, Sexton, Healy etc need the matches to get match fit.

SOB's looking a bit on the erm...large side though isn't he? Looked a bit off the pace to me. Plus O'Donnell scored the try of that weekends rugby and played brilliantly, he looks like a great player to me but then I've always preferred Tipuric to Warburton.
Very excited by the ire/eng game, should be fascinating.

SOB's looking a bit on the erm...large side though isn't he?

I think they call it "lacking match fitness" now in the pro era. 😉
Was surprised he lasted 80 minutes v France, tbh, but think that's mostly down to the Heaslip injury. will have done him good to get 80, though.
Think Ireland will need him to bring a bit of that weight to the forward battle. Haskell, BillyV and Robshaw all carry well and hard. It's gonna be a tough battle up front.
And can see O'Donnell making the bench and coming on for the last 20 too, maybe a little more space for him then as well.

Talking of injured players returning a differnt size - saw something about Cian Healy too. Apparently his injured leg's quad is about 70% the circumference of the good one. Can't find the article or pics - but it's not good news for the Ireland scrum. Marler always seems to have the beating of Ross too, did for Quin's again recently.
Don't want to sound "Welsh", but I really hope Ireland can at least hold on in the scrum this time. They need a bit of "home-side reffing" IMO, 'cos apart from that it's pretty evenly matched.

Should be a really interesting game. Now they've both got they're WC group mates out the way I think we might see them try a few more moves.
I know I've slated the Henshaw / Payne centre combo before, but it's starting to make a little more sense to me now Sexton's back. If you've got JS and CM' s kicking games at 9 and 10, why not play two extra full backs for the chase. Don't think we've really seen it yet in this 6N, but I get the feeling they'll be using Bowe, Zebo, Henshaw and Payne in the air a hell of a lot more now. Who needs centres anyway?
Johnny May's in for an interesting game.

SOB's looking a bit on the erm...large side though isn't he?

Round these parts it's called "put on a bit of timber".

Back to the choke tackle for a moment. If you tackled that high in open play then it would be a high tackle?

Mentioned earlier as well, I'd like to see the "choke, twist, clear out" penalised as dangerous too. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt properly. Especially if the defenders legs are buried and they can't twist with the clear out.

Interesting discussion on tactics/tackles.

My problem with the choke tackle followed by the maul, other than the legality of the tackle, is that after the ref shouts 'maul' the defending team invariably collapse it and are awarded the scrum put-in. This should almost always be a penalty conceded for collapsing a maul.

But most of the time the defending team is tackling the ball carrier, it's not often the ball is moved to another carrier, and they are legally allowed to tackle and bring the ball carrier to ground. It's very rare to see a maul formed from a line out legally brought down because the ball is shipped to the back quickly.

I like the high risk defence of the line out maul where the defending team do not bind, thus making the attacking team guilty of obstruction, or "truck and trailer"

I too was surprised that SOB lasted the full 80. That was a big ask after such a long lay off. He's a quality player though.

It'll be interesting to see how England go in Dublin...when the pressure / expectation is on its not a nice place to go. I remember when we were humiliated there going for the grand slam. Turned out to be men against boys that day.

As much as I rate Wood, our back row does seem a bit more balanced with Haskell in some ways; it takes the pressure off Billy V to carry everything on his own. The downside is that we lose and option in the line out and Wood does a lot of nasty work that I'm not sure Haskell is do keen on. His carrying isn't great though.

I'm a big May fan because his kind of pure pace is lethal, but I think he's in the last chance saloon. His defence had been squiffy this 6N and he's butchered a few clear chances. He needs to play like he did against the All Blacks in the autumn. Try advise, he was just busy that day.

I'm struggling to keep my inner pessimist in check. I'm an England supporter through and through, I'm just not sure how much faith I have in the team (coaches, players). I guess we've just had too many false dawns.

10 Weeks for Pape. 😀

Going back to this... the quality of flowers and chocolates must be much much worse in France than Ireland when Heaslip got only 5 weeks for his 2 knees on McCaws head which was far more blatant. 10 weeks sounds like a lot

To add a bit of "Northern" interest, looks like it's 1 - 0 to the Aussies after St. George beat the Wolves. Fingers crossed that Wigan level the series at 1 - 1 against the Broncos followed by the Rabbitohs teaching the Saints how to play rugby.

Special interest as my lad and I are Rabbitohs fans and he is on mascot duty at Langtree Park on Sunday.

DanW - Member
10 Weeks for Pape.
Going back to this... the quality of flowers and chocolates must be much much worse in France than Ireland when Heaslip got only 5 weeks for his 2 knees on McCaws head which was far more blatant. 10 weeks sounds like a lot

I'm just not sure how much faith I have in the team (coaches, players). I guess we've just had too many false dawns.

Indeed......... 🙄

10 weeks sounds like a lot

That's because it is a lot. 😀

Off to Sale V Saracens today, Cips back for Sale & Sarries always put out a very strong team - especially with first choice flyhalf Charlie Hodgson!

Sale beat Saracens 14-10, pretty good result against Sarries. Hodgson pulled out out before the game so Goode moved to flyhalf. At least Saracens didn't have to resort to the work experience flyhalf in Farrell junior.

Good result for sale and Northants, getting very tight at the top, hope tigers can put one over Irish tomorrow.

Rather hoping for the reverse!

I guess we've just had too many false dawns.

England's pack is right up there with the best, and our defence has always been very good. The fact we are starting to put together a multi-faceted attacking game makes this the most interesting England team in the last 10 years.

England's pack is right up there with the best, and our defence has always been very good. The fact we are starting to put together a multi-faceted attacking game makes this the most interesting England team in the last 10 years.

Agreed. If they can can all gel come RWC time. It's interesting that Lancasters kept the match 15 together for training this week. Adding Nowell to the training team is a wake up / potential substitute for May. One wonders, should the injured return, they won't be finding there way straight back into the team but Benched subs in the pool matches?

A multi faceted attacking game? Is that a new term for a rolling maul?

Er, no!

Attack via :
-Strong scrum
-rolling maul
-big fwd ball carriers
-scrum half round the fringes
-flat FH with run/pass/kick options
-running centres with gas/good footwork
-fast wings
-footballing FB.

You can't defends everywhere!! If you blitz England now they have a layered attack and can spread it wide. If you spread wide they have powerful runners tight in.

Whilst England are far from the finished article, they are developing a game to worry any team on their day.

How many tries did Italy score against the awesome defence?

England have a bit of momentum against poor teams at the moment but are by no means looking like RWC winners. Attacking threat is basically maul and JJ. Everything else mentioned is just par for a reasonable international team . It will be interesting to see how they go against a half decent team

Let's remeber England went well against the top 3 last year with a back line and perhaps back three less accomplished than this one. I'm not trying to hide that a loss is a loss by saying that.

I think they underrated Italy / fell asleep in that first 20 If they can gel and trust each other and execute until they are comfortable with each other i think this is a good team, with possibly the best international bench in the tournament. It's a form team with good individual skills, now it needs refining to play heads up winning rugby from 0-80 mins. Ireland away are a good marker IMO, if they win that and look good doing it they are in a very good place. I'm concerned about Sexton / Bowe vs May though I think that's a massive weak link for England v Ireland.

The "numbers" people have reported that not all the England players played to there fitness potential in the Italy game, which to me says they either weren't up for it - unlikely - or at some point thier foot was off the gas. The latter is obviously the issue

our defence has always been very good.

Always?

30-3 ring any bells?

🙂

That game didn't exist!!!

I'm concerned about Sexton / Bowe vs May though I think that's a massive weak link for England v Ireland.

I'd worry more about a decent pack making England work harder up front. At the moment they are working overtime covering a massive amount of the pitch and giving the backs a somewhat easy ride- a tougher pack would likely expose more than just May... I'm not sure Ireland have that pack as the front row is a little off but I'm looking forward to seeing how the Ireland backrow go. I do expect a fairly comfortable England win though as it is hard to see the points coming from anywhere but a maul or Sexton's boot for Ireland.

Last night I had a dream that Ireland won 30-10 and Marler was sent off 🙂

30-3 ring any bells?

. Everything else mentioned is just par for a reasonable international team . It will be interesting to see how they go against a half decent team

A bit harsh on our first opponents - Crikey!

A bit harsh on our first opponents

It is encouraging don't get me wrong, but it should be a lot more than encouraging this close to a RWC, which going by the performances so far, no NH team are in with a snowballs chance of winning.

30-3 ring any bells?

I think we were guilty of letting the appalling refereeing of Walsh get to us. Aside from the scrum he missed hands on the floor leading to the game breaking try. We just gave up mentally and Wales ran out comfortable winners.

Eh? You got played off the park! Do you adapt historical events for Hollywood for a living?

England need to consistently beat the top sides (Ireland included) to be RWC contenders.

We have a dismal record against the SH giants.

A decent win over Wales and beating the worst side in the 6N by six tries to three doesn't make us world beaters.

The Irish play a very limited but highly effective game which England may struggle to overcome. As did SA and Australia.

I still sense that England are only playing this way because they're being forced to by loss of personnel. The coaches still have little idea who they'd pick if everyone was fit. Ben Youngs is bound to go AWOL in a big match at some point - hopefully not on Sunday - but when it happens and he gets dropped the scrum half pecking order is all over the place.

Ireland know where they're going and how they're going to get there. England don't.

A decent win over Wales and beating the worst side in the 6N by six tries to three doesn't make us world beaters.

Agreed, but it's marginally more preferable than squeeking past the worst team by 2 tries and narrowly beating the worst french team in some years (and conceding more tries than you scored).
England aren't the only team being over hyped here.

You'll have to enlighten us wrecker. Who's being over-hyped and where have you read the over-hyping?

You'll have to enlighten us wrecker. Who's being over-hyped and where have you read the over-hyping?

Oh right.

Can you point some out? (I'm particularly interested in examples of the green machine being over-hyped tbh.)

Can you point some out? (I'm particularly interested in examples of the green machine being over-hyped tbh.)

Ok, fairy nuff, I'll take that as an "I can't" then.

Ireland know where they're going and how they're going to get there. England don't.

I like the way people say this as if they are part of the coaching set up and know exactly whats going on.

Of course, its possible that Lancaster and crew are running around like headless chickens, but I suspect that a series of professional coaches such is there employ are not doing so.

I suspect the real issue is that Lancaster has lived up to his promise to pick on form, yet some players haven't repeated that form outside of their clubs, or although doing well as club level are being outperformed at international level.

JJ is a classic example of someone who hasn't done that, as is Burrell, as is Haskell currently as is Robshaw, Kruis, Marler, Morgan and Watson and recently Cole.

The others, 36, Alex Goode, The Idiot winger, Lawes recently (who looked a bit tired tbh), Wood all have been exposed by those above. I think Billy V isn't as happy as he appears either and is struggling after 60.

So Lancaster has been let down by his policy or the players, but - luckily - appears to have found a team at the 11th hour.

Ok, fairy nuff, I'll take that as an "I can't" then.

England don't know how they want to play. 2003; knarly set of forwards and destructive back row backed up by a couple of real genius players in the backs. 2015...Plan changes from game to game,and it isn't because they are playing what is in front of them.Really good teams have a way of playing which you know is coming but they impose their game on you.England 2003,Wales two years ago with Warrenball (it REALLY wasn't the ref)The AB's are the prime example,they have played the same way for what, 6 years now? Even club sides can do it, Wasps with the rush defence,Tigers with the death by scrum/maul.