[Closed] Student protests in London - turning ugly

In a year, yes, in total, no. I'd rather pay less overall and have some savings.

And as for your suggestion that not going to university "marks you out as being a bit ignorant". You've just proved that someone can be pig- ignorant, despite having gone to university.

I think he said that advocating using CS gas etc marks you out as a bit ignorant, with which it's hard to disagree.

anyone who can't do the basic maths that £500 is less than £1100 is too stupid for university.

What about the ones that can't figure out that £3000 is less than £9000?

DrJ and awhiles are of course both right!

having done my sums a bit better since the thread on the fee raise

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-168000-to-get-my-kids-through-college-what-to-do ]Linky[/url]

it seems to me the plan is to have a pretty straightforward graduate tax, of 9% of income above £21000 for 30 years. You need to have had a pretty low level of loan or a very high salary to have a realistic prospect of paying it off before 30 years, and the government have announced there will be highish penalties for early repayment. I haven't seen full details on these levels though. Even if I had £186,000 in my back pocket to pay my kids through college upfront, it would work out loads cheaper to save the money, let them max out student loans and pay their repayments later, leaving a big chunk to be written off at year 30. If you live by earning and saving before spending rather than by loans and credit, this is hard to adjust to. I think the reason not to just go the whole hog and call it a graduate tax is to do with perceived fairness of taxation systems and legalities around that issue, but it would maybe be cheaper all round and save on a ton of admin, accounting and bureaucracy to just sort out these legalities and make it a tax.

i borrowed £12,000, to pay for fees of £1000/year, and living costs.

in 8 years of working and repayments, i've barely made a dent in the debt. i will be paying for the rest of my (working) life.

i earn almost exactly the average wage, as i suspect, will most graduates.

most people, will, like me, never pay off the debt.

but graduates under the new scheme will pay £50 a month less than i do, they could stick this money in an isa, and have about £40,000 when they retire.

graduates under the new scheme will be about £40,000 better off than me when they retire.

the new scheme is brilliant. it keeps universities funded, and with space for many more students than we as a nation could afford if it was 'free'.

What if you don't qualify for a loan?

ahwiles - Member
(shouting)

THE NEW SYSTEM WILL MEAN MOST PEOPLE END UP PAYING A LOT LESS!

DID YOU YOU HEAR ME? - LESS!

FFS.

and breathe.

Isn't it amazing. The government come up with an idea that ensures that those who go on to earn, on average, £100k more (due to getting a degree) then subsidise the system to the advantage of the less well off, whereupon we get a riot from the sort of intelligentsia who are most often heard complaining about the rich who should be taxed to the hilt for the benefit of the poor...

What if you don't qualify for a loan?

That would mean (broadly) you weren't doing a degree style course, under 60 and UK resident.

That would mean (broadly) you weren't doing a degree style course, under 60 and UK resident.

And ... ?

The government come up with an idea that ensures that those who go on to earn, on average, £100k more (due to getting a degree) then subsidise the system to the advantage of the less well off,

If they earn 100K more, then they will pay (approx) 30K more tax, which will nicely pay for the university place of a worthy but impoverished student, n'est-ce pas?

True enough, but gov wants more. Upping tax rates generally seen as bad. Taxing according to school, probably illegal and hypothication doubly so, hence the overcomplicated loans scenario.

Grampian news this morning had an interview with a student who described helping to smash his way into,and had been on the roof of Castle Grayskull,but then had objected to being kettled.Brilliant! "I want to smash up property,but if you could avoid causing any inconvenience for me afterwards Mr Policeman."

DrJ - Member

The government come up with an idea that ensures that those who go on to earn, on average, £100k more (due to getting a degree) then subsidise the system to the advantage of the less well off,

If they earn 100K more, then they will pay (approx) 30K more tax, which will nicely pay for the university place of a worthy but impoverished student, n'est-ce pas?

... and then rioted against by the sort of numpty who thinks the answer is to soak the rich. What are they protesting about, exactly?

Sorry, you have no idea what "sort of numpty" was at the demo, so your speculations about their attitude to taxes are not much of an argument.

Vaguely amusing take on yesterdays antics:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/britain-backs-middle-class-children-who-want-the-moon-on-a-stick-201011103243/

Kids have been brought up to expect top go to Uni, this is wrong in my opinion. Going to Uni should be for the cream of Britain in every field - not every Tom, Dick and Harry. When I started work in '98 having a degree in my field guaranteed a certain starting salary. But nowadays they're so common and many so pointless, that most Graduates come in on piffling salaries.

A Degree should be a gold standard that sets a Graduate apart. We need to get back to that and with fewer people going to University full stop. Besides, it's not as if there aren't alternatives - Open University is significantly cheaper than a Campus Uni for example.

Here's some Tory bullshit; would you like fries with that? Chilli sauce?

Being able to get an education to degree standard should be the [i]right[/i] of every single person in this country. Not just for those who can 'afford' it.

Education is the great leveller; poorly educated people, speshly in deprived areas, are at a clear disadvantage if they cannot access education at the standard that can help create more social equality and mobility. Of course, the Tories really would prefer it if only their own (wealthy) kind are privileged enough to benefit, as that would help maintain the status quo, and keep a subservient workforce too ignorant to threaten their comfortable positions.

Any talk of levelling the social playing field is met with howls of protest from the Right. Understandably; they don't want to have to endure such hardships as living on a sink estate, or being limited to jobs paying only the minimum wage.

RIOT.

If there aint the money sloshing around then hey why not just print more money to pay for their fees? It "worked" for Gordan after all.

Saddling students with debt is a great way of teaching them about the real debt that the country is drowning under. It doesnt do them any favours pretending it doesnt exist.

I'm confusticated, if there aint the cash, where exactly should it come from?

Grampian news this morning had an interview with a student who described helping to smash his way into,and had been on the roof of Castle Grayskull,but then had objected to being kettled

He ought to thank his lucky stars he wasn't tea-bagged by the coppers!

Being able to get an education to degree standard should be the right of every single person in this country. Not just for those who can 'afford' it

Hmmm...well yeah but is that the point? I mean too many people at Uni costs too much - there's no benefit from having more than we need. Not sure how we determing how many we do need but it does seem that people are required to have degrees for jobs that in the past didn't require them.

So I think the choice was either to increase the cost to the student or to reduce the number of students; the latter option is a bit difficult really as the capacity is there and school kids now consider Uni more of a default option than they did a generation ago - indeed more recently than that.

Edit - maybe the country should pay for the brightest students, say those that get 3 As or Bs?

DrJ - Member

I think he said that advocating using CS gas etc marks you out as a bit ignorant, with which it's hard to disagree.

How's that ? .........very easy to disagree imo.

Advocating using CS gas does not necessarily mark you out as "a bit ignorant".

scraprider's comment might well in fact, be based on first hand experience and knowledge of how effective CS gas is in dispersing people. Who are the CS gas/riot control experts on here then ...... you and Elfinsafety ?

Or is your definition of "ignorant" simply anyone who has an opposing opinion to yours ?

And if you actually read Elfinsafety's posts, you would realise that he challenged scraprider right to know what he's talking about, based on the fact that he didn't go to university. Quote :

[i]"if someone's moaning about 'dirty unwashed' students, but has little or no idea about what they're actually protesting about, then it's relevant to talk about their education, isn't it? "[/i]

Elfinsafety's automatic assumption was that scraprider had "little or no idea" what the protest was about. All based on the fact that he didn't go to university.

As far as I'm concerned scraprider was talking bollox. But he is perfectly entitled to have an opinion and talk complete bollox ...... that right is not a special privilege reserved for those who went to university.

ripped off another forum but mildly amusing diversion....[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Oh shut up Ernie, ffs...

Thing is, if the police start using CS Gas as a means of crowd control, then demonstrators could possibly resort to using more violence in response. So they may start coming to marches armed with rocks, bottles, petrol bombs etc. Then what do the police do? Respond with rubber bullets? Then what, ban marches? Then where's the democratic right to protest gone?

Get some perspective; this was a few dozen/hundred or so hooligans out of [i]FIFTY THOUSAND[/i] protestors. So about 0.2-0.4% of all protestors.

CS gas is indiscriminate; innocent people, including journalists, legal observers and neutral bystanders may be affected. That's a pretty good reason not to use. it. That, and the fact that people can suffer permanent damage or even die as a result of exposure to CS gas.

I accused Scraprider of ignorance because it's clear that they have no understanding of what impact the use of CS gas could have, in a much wider context of public demonstrations. Also, their description of students as 'dirty unwashed' is a negative and unjust stereotype. I questioned whether they'd been to university, as in my experience as someone who has, the vast majority of students, like people everywhere, are clean and hygienic in their habits.

So, someone talks of using CS gas against protestors, and uses lazy stereotypes, and I accuse them of being ignorant. They display a poor grasp of English, so I question whether they attended school much. Yeah? And? So?

Rude? Arrogant? Don't really care.

Did going to university give me a greater right to voice my opinions? Never said it did. You assumed that's what I meant, but you assume too much.

You should sort yourself out, eat some beef crisps or something. Bloody fascist.

i would like to see education free, for everyone, whenever they want it.

that would be great.

it would be expensive.

but great.

i don't think university should be exclusively for the academic elite. if only because teachers, vets, doctors, nurses, architects, engineers (mechanical / materials / electrical / electronic / computer / software / chemical / etc.) chemists, lawyers, town planners, accountants, etc. etc. all need degrees.

and yes, i even want to see people studying klingon and basket weaving.

but, we can't afford it.

not without raising taxes, or spending less on other stuff that i quite like (pensions, hospitals, art galleries, and so on).

so, 13 years ago we raised taxes, we called this new tax a 'student loan' - and people grumbled a bit, and then got on with things as before.

now, a few years later, we decide to change a few things, making the tax lower for most people, except high earners, who will pay a lot more.

and suddenly there is much anger and gnashing of teeth.

i really don't understand; this time last year everyone was happy with the 'student loan' (graduate tax)...?

as a nation, we seem to accept the idea of fees, cos we've had them for 13 years - and no-one said a damn thing.

the new system means that you can be as poor as a church mouse, and still go to the most expensive university in the land - cos you pay it back when you start earning.

you can be poor as a church mouse, and still you'll be allowed to borrow the maximum amount, and your repayments will be unaffected - cos they're a percentage of your salary - when you start work.

you can be poor as a church mouse, and you'll still probably end up £40,000 better off than me.

i have no complaints - i'm happy with my graduate tax. it really isn't that bad.

Also, their description of students as 'dirty unwashed' is a negative and unjust stereotype.

But of course your stereotyping of people who didn't go to university as ignorant and having "little or no idea" what the protest was actually about, is perfectly just and acceptable.

[b][i]"They display a poor grasp of English"[/i][/b]

Maybe scraprider can't be arsed to make the effort. You post stuff on here which would fail an English exam. Or are you, unlike scraprider, allowed to do that 'cause you've been to university ?

[b][i]"Oh shut up Ernie, ffs..."[/i][/b]

You wish .....

Or are you, unlike scraprider, allowed to do that 'cause you've been to university ?

Yes.

Go away now please.

So you're all PC about women, black, gypsy, gay, lesbian, ginger, disabled, asian, fat, short, long, and ugly people, but it's OK and absolutely fine to be prejudice against people who didn't go to university ?

........ I bet you read the Guardian 😐

"not without rising taxes"

Well, ignoring everything you typed after that, why don't the Condems man up and do that? That is the answer here, not strangling public services.

That and taking it from the armed forces.

[img] [/img]

Numpties.

They probbly think very highly of you too, Woppit... 🙂

at least he hates someone other than god folk so he is at least spreading his contempt around ....progress i say

hello sorry im late , ive been at work ,paying taxes so the money can be wasted when these idiots can do it all over again , im am sorry for calling them the unwashed, im sure smell lovely ,i have not been to uni, well tell a lie i shaged a student type once ( female type )C.S gas is a very good crowd dispersant and thats a fact , sorry for the bad speeling.

I was walking up Millbank minutes before it kicked off, having just been in the old Tory HQ (now occupied by the European Commission.. A delightful irony). Anyway, I digress.. One callow youth turned to me, once he was far away enough, and told me '**** off city boys'. I admired the sentiment but it was entirely misdirected. I didn't have the heart to correct him, so I just 😀 'd at him and strolled on in the sunshine, admiring the gusto with which a group of young ladies were expressing their displeasure with Nick Clegg.

From my previous experience as a documentary film maker during the protests / riots against the criminal justice act / Claremont road / etc far worse treatment is meted by the police towards individual protestors once they get them out of site behind police vans (or rather when they thought they were out of sight - you can actually capture quite a lot with a good zoom lens when perched on top of scaffolding). Filming someone being beaten up by the police is not something you forget easily.

Personally i hope this is the start of many demonstrations against the cuts - I'll be heading out to speak up for those who can't protest, including my severely disabled brother who's classes are being cut as 'non essential' even though they offer the only opportunity for him to leave the house, thanks to the Tories and the lib dems

Rights to education? 😆

I didn't have the heart to correct him, so I just 'd at him and strolled on in the sunshine, admiring the gusto with which a group of young ladies were expressing their displeasure with Nick Clegg.

I love you Duntmatter. 😳

far worse treatment is meted by the police towards individual protestors once they get them out of site behind police vans

SueW; I was at Claremont Road several times during that period; missed the final evictions, but having been at other similar events, I know only too well just how nasty the police can be. I've seen police behaving in a way that would make Sgt. Delroy Smellie look like a Liberal Pacifist. To those who are under the allusion that Her Maj's Finest can do no wrong; let me tell you, they're just Human Beings, same as the rest of us. And some of them are vicious, violent thugs that make those students at Millbank look positively fragrant.

Have to say, that the police yesterday showed remarkable restraint, and I can only commend their behaviour and actions, from what I saw on telly.

SueW; if you're in touch with Kevevs, please email me, as I'd be really interested to learn of your experiences at Claremont Rd etc.

riots against the criminal justice act

Junkyard - you're right, there certainly were some utter c0cks around at that point (I remember being threatened with a knife by some of then who didn't like being filmed!) and yes, there are violent people on both the protesters and the police 'sides'. I guess I get frustrated when that complexity, and dual causality, is missed in the media. I also think that direct action (not including injury to people!) is an important part of the whole spectrum of democratic protest, from letter writing to the kinder scout trespass that has given us the access rights we have today. That doesn't mean that I think every action by every protester is necessarily right, but that sometmes purely peaceful protest is not the only action.

Elf - I've not really heard anything from kevevs apart from on here (he does have good taste in films even if they are on the challenging side of viewing!), but if he wants to meet up for a (probably not ver fast) ride or a drink tell him to give me a shout. Anyway, I was unpacking a box of unedited footage the other day from the CJA filmng which I guess is why it's in the forefront of my mind. Anyway, if you ever head up this way, let me know and if I'm around it would be good to catch up

SueW my email is elfinsafety AT virginmedia DOT com. I'd love to hear your tales of Claremont rd and the CJB demos. Probbly got some pics I could dig out somewhere...

Kevevs is cool, good mate of mine. Nice bloke. Can't believe you've not hooked up yet as you're only yards away!! He knows that area well as he grew up there.

I'll be up there again at some stage I dare say. Maybe not until the Spring now though. Too cold. 🙁

Elf - why should a degree level education be a right? Does it really help society as a whole? Why isn't a PhD level education a right to? GCSE and possibly A'Level standard education is all that's needed for the vast majority of people to be useful to society and keep the nation competitive. Sure we need some highly educated specialists but we don't need it to be the norm. WTF does shit like sociology degrees equip people for? Uni is mostly just a rite of passage, young adults first bit of real freedom (but still with a bit of safety net in place) and a chance to get shit-faced on a regular basis without causing rows with your parents.

Junkyard - you're right, there certainly were some utter c0cks around at that point (I remember being threatened with a knife by some of then who didn't like being filmed!)

Not just me, then...

why should a degree level education be a right?

Hard to make a definitive statement, but in general I'd say that an education up to someone's potential should be, if not a "right", but something to be aimed at in an enlightened society.

Elf - why should a degree level education be a right? Does it really help society as a whole?

Yes, it does. Education is a great enabler, it allows people to gain knowledge and skills. An educated mind is more capable than one that has been left to stagnate. Education helps unlock the potential in all people.

GCSE and possibly A'Level standard education is all that's needed for the vast majority of people to be useful to society and keep the nation competitive.

See, what you're doing, is reducing Education down to a purely economic level; you're suggesting that the sole purpose of education is to train people to do specific tasks. A very naive and narrow-minded view, if you don't mind me saying so. Education is about stimulating development of the mind, so that the individual may gain a greater understanding of the World around them, and how best to utilise their own abilities in order to function successfully within their society.

Placing restrictions along economic lines is never a good idea; that way, you end up with wealthy elites who use economic power to keep other subservient and unable to compete on the same level.

Personally, having been to Uni, I feel that most people in the UK are more than capable of completing a university first degree. Why not? The myth that University is only for the 'clever' is one that has been perpetuated by the ruling classes, to perpetuate the status quo of a subordinate workforce.

The greatest fear of the elite, as I've said before, is that the Proletariat will one day rise up and take away the elite's 'power'.

All taxpayers contribute towards education; bankers, butchers and candlestick manufacturers. Therefore, all people should have the right to access education, regardless of economic status.

Education leads towards a freer and more egalitarian society. Have a look around the World, the evidence is there. Open your eyes, and let Education open your mind.

WTF does shit like sociology degrees equip people for?

God knows... 😉

This is a good one eh? All I wanna say is, Thanks DenDennis for that, I laughed my head off!!

scraprider - Member

hello sorry im late , ive been at work ,paying taxes ........

What are you trying to say scraprider .........that graduates don't pay taxes ?

I think you'll find most graduates have a better prospect of finding employment and are therefore more likely to pay income tax, than non graduates. They are also more likely to pay tax at a higher rate. I would keep paying tax out of the argument myself.

And you know scraprider, "paying taxes" doesn't mark you out as some sort of hero - whatever the Sun or Daily Mail might tell you.

Although it does suggest that you are not the Sun newspaper owner, or a billionaire Tory Party donor.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/302366.stm ]Tax free: Rupert Murdoch's zero status[/url]

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/aug/29/laidlaw-donations-tory-party ]Tax exile Lord Laidlaw kept up donations to Tories despite party's denials[/url]

FuzzyWuzzy - Member

why should a degree level education be a right? Does it really help society as a whole?

Since when are people's rights solely restricted to what benefits society as a whole ?

My elderly mother has a right to receive medical treatment. It would be hard to argue that society as a whole, benefits every time she receives it. Individual rights are not based solely on what benefits society as a whole.

Education to whatever level your potential takes you, was firmly established as a right, not a privilege, in the last century.

I cannot believe that in the 21st century, some people still can't their heads round that concept.
We seem to be going backwards.

And you know scraprider, "paying taxes" doesn't mark you out as some sort of hero - whatever the Sun or Daily Mail might tell you.

Although it does suggest that you are not the Sun newspaper owner, or a billionaire Tory Party donor.

Or indeed Labour donors Lord Paul, Lakshmi Mittal and Ronald Cohen?

Or indeed Labour donors

Tory Party/New Labour.......you tell me the difference.

Even Rupert Murdoch found himself able to tell his readers to support New Labour.

Billionaire tax-dodging donors were very thin on the ground in the days of Old Labour.

Why if you want a uni degree, you get sponsored by a company, like used happen when we still had an industrial base, not a servic industry banking base, that has been shown to have failed and cost a lot of money and jobs.

We could have drama and media students supported by the media companys, computer nerds sponsored by computer firms, accountants sponsored by accountancy firms etc etc.

The students work for the firms in their weeks off, and some weekends, they learn about the real world of work, and get to turn up on time and stay all day, if they dont they get sacked so easy strangfe somebody hasnt thought it out already, but then it was with apprenticships.

project - Member
Why if you want a uni degree, you get sponsored by a company, like used happen when we still had an industrial base, not a servic industry banking base, that has been shown to have failed and cost a lot of money and jobs.

How much money has the "service industry banking base" cost?

a lot of noughts that we will be paying back for many years, plus all the unemploynment pay fotr all the ones who got sacked/redundant.

A lot of money and a lot of jobs.

Have you been asleep for the last three years druidh ?

project - Member
a lot of noughts that we will be paying back for many years,

How much has it cost? How much money will the UK Govt have to spend to "save" the banking industry? Figures please.

And while you are at it. Also tell us how much money the banking industry has paid into the Exchequer over the last, say, 20 years.....

And how rich have some of those bankers become? To whose detriment?

Has Spent,

I'm waiting

Don't waste your time project. druidh knows full well that the total cost to Britain for the Credit Crunch/Bankers Recession is impossible to work out. All the job losses, loss of tax revenue, benefit payments, bailouts, loss of profits, etc etc is too vast to calculate. Although druidh would like you to believe that it's insignificant, ie the Credit Crunch/Bankers Recession has little effect on the Uk's economy 🙄

You don't have an answer then, just more mindless dribble?

I've always got an endless supply of mindless dribble druidh.

Although I have to confess, I can't quite match your mindless dribble which suggests that the Credit Crunch/Bankers Recession cost Britain no more than a bit of loose change.

You truly must be the only person on this planet who believes that.

In monetary terms the gov has more than likely profited from lending to the banks.

the social cost of recent events (not the bail out/lending to banks but the lending by the banks) however is harder to calculate but is more than likely a loss.
i think that is what druidh is aiming at.

I've always got an endless supply of mindless dribble druidh.

Ha! You weren't expecting that one, were you?? 😆

i think that is what druidh is aiming at.

I know exactly what druidh was aiming at. God only knows how often he keeps prattling on about it.....I was determined not to give him the opportunity to regurgitate it one more time.

It's just complete nonsense anyway. In the same way that if I complained after having to spend £300 because my 24volt SDS drill had been stolen, it would be nonsense for someone to claim that the drill hadn't in fact cost me anything, on the basis that it would in future, save me money.

The reality is that the government should be making money out of banking anyway - or at least offering the services at reduced costs to customers. Rather than leaving it all to a bunch of greedy incompetent bonus-addicted chancers.

I don't remember btw, the Tories arguing that the bank bailouts were absolutely fine as the government would profit long-term from it. And of course exactly the same could be argued about the fiscal stimulus, ie how could it be costing anything if long-term it will have repaid itself ?

The truth is, as project suggests, that the bankers recession has cost as dearly - in jobs, wages, housing stock, etc etc . And just to link it back nicely with university education :

[url= http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=406617 ]
The cost of the credit crunch mounts: a round-up of university budget-cutting efforts[/url]

The initiative taken for the concern is very serious and need an attention of every one. This is the concern which exists in the society and needs to be eliminated from the society as soon as possible.
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