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Sounds like you need to escalate the matter, pointing out the BS you've been given.
See if the uni has a safeguarding team? Or go directly to the dean's office?
Un acceptable. A call to the Dean should be made immediately, your daughter will have their contact details and there should also be a 'complaints' process. Male staff should not be accessing Halls without a female member of staff. What time did the inspection take place? Inspections should only take place with notice.
I would also question their rights to forced entry to a locked and chained room. That would suggest someone was in and question whether they knocked on the door first.
just reading back - are these University halls, or one of the private providers (eg Amber, or Unite)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_Students
Do the University (call the Dean's office, really!) actually have any relationship with the HoR provider.
I ask because there was another one on here recently about a refurb where students were being moved to another accomodation - wasn't even aware before then that there were private HoR providers.
Cheers Burchy. Is ‘Access to Student Accommodation Protocol’ something that applies to private providers? All the halls seem to be privately run at this particular uni.
Sorry, i'd skim read and assumed it was a university owned/ran halls. If its a 3rd party provider it could be anything goes unfortunately.
If the Uni have a contract with the provider for nominations into those rooms, which is how it works with 1st years mainly e.g. you have a contract with the University for the room and then 3rd party delivers the accommodation you should have a little more protection, assuming the university have written into the contract with the provider the right level of access protocol. If she's a 2nd/3rd year and has chosen the halls directly with the provider then probably not as they will unlikely be in the contract with the student.
Either way it's still worth speaking to Student Welfare about it as they should take it seriously because ultimately its their reputation in question. Nobody says 'i had a bad experience whilst at University X with ABC housing provider', its always 'i had a bad time whilst at University X'.
This gets even more confusing.
They knocked, opened the door, (maybe) called out, managed to un-fix the chain, entered the room, saw a body under the covers, and didn't check to see if the occupant was concious before they just left?
I would also question their rights to forced entry to a locked and chained room. That would suggest someone was in and question whether they knocked on the door first.
Do read other posts first. Seems this is considered reasonable in some situations. Take it at face value from the PoV of the person outside;
The chain can only be locked from within, hence reasonable assumption someone's inside.
You've knocked and got no answer
Do you walk away - ah they must be fast asleep / have headphones on / in the shower..... or is there at that point a reasonable welfare concern - overdose, suicide, medical, whatever.
Sure, there might be better protocols for what to do when it's considered that gaining immediate access is necessary (eg: grab another student / staffer as a witness why you're now breaking in, etc.) but at this point the need to gain access is IMHO reasonably sound.
If it was a welfare/safeguarding issue then they will have documented it and your daughter will be legally entitled to see the details. If they stall on it then she can make a Subject Access Request under GDPR. You probably won't be able to request it on her behalf, however.
but at this point the need to gain access is IMHO reasonably sound.
The postman doesn't feel the need to break in when he's trying to deliver a parcel while I'm on the bog.
Why didn't these staff members talk to her flatmates, or call the warden?
At the very least it's exceptionally poor decision making and needs to be formally addressed.
Staff - especially if its a privately owned halls - will probably be on a zero hours contact, on minimum wage, with an unrealistic target for their workload and not have had any proper training.
I'm not justifying their behaviour - it sounds well off - but I can see why they might have acted the way they did. I'd still be trying to escalate things further with the manager.
If you thought somone was dying in the room then you have both the right and duty to break in - but IMO this goes nowhere near the standard. There should be procedure in place for welfare checks - ask for it
I suppose they have to make sure that she hasn’t created a portal to Hell in there. But I shall await my promised call back from the manager…
Justifiably they can look for toasters and fire risks but their whole welfare thing is pure BS.
Not only did they force entry into the other young ladies room but assuming they are pulling this welfare BS then obviously they'd have been hammering 5 minutes and shouting at the top of their voices so the whole flat heard?
Poly
I would just say, think carefully about how you respond to this. Its quite possible to instil the fear of god into teenage girls such that they start to believe that every day is a fight for their safety.
Fair point ... frankly I can understand her hiding under the covers but the issue here is as MartinHutch stuck in the title... it's about her privacy.
The chain can only be locked from within, hence reasonable assumption someone’s inside.
You’ve knocked and got no answer
Do you walk away – ah they must be fast asleep / have headphones on / in the shower….. or is there at that point a reasonable welfare concern – overdose, suicide, medical, whatever.
Sure, there might be better protocols for what to do when it’s considered that gaining immediate access is necessary (eg: grab another student / staffer as a witness why you’re now breaking in, etc.) but at this point the need to gain access is IMHO reasonably sound.
There is no welfare concern and it's not their concern she's an adult I'm assuming without being sectioned into this accommodation and it's not a medical institution.
The postman doesn’t feel the need to break in when he’s trying to deliver a parcel while I’m on the bog.
Why didn’t these staff members talk to her flatmates, or call the warden?
At the very least it’s exceptionally poor decision making and needs to be formally addressed.
Nice partial quote there, you completely missed the bit where i said
Sure, there might be better protocols for what to do when it’s considered that gaining immediate access is necessary (eg: grab another student / staffer as a witness why you’re now breaking in, etc.)
I'm not entirely sure that the facts are really 100% as stated and I would have been telling my daughter to complain rather than me - she's the bill payer, and a female student whose privacy may have been compromised is going to have more effect than an angry dad on the phone.
The Uni will play the welfare card - no answer to repeated calls so needed to get in to check on the occupant - and that will be that.
There is no welfare concern and it’s not their concern she’s an adult I’m assuming without being sectioned into this accommodation and it’s not a medical institution.
A friend of mine has a company that has built and runs 6 uni halls of residence around the country. He says that suicide rates have more than tripled in the last 3 years. Imagine what would have happened if the occupant was actually in need of hospital treatment and had been ignored.
Things are rarely as clear cut as they seem.
She’s got an ensuite?!? Another thing I told my daughter she could have if she wanted but i wasn’t upping her loan top up for it.
Middle_oab has a 10th floor [s]penthouse[/s] shared flat with views west over the Clyde, en-suite, 24hr reception, common room with the huuuuuugest TV's I have ever seen, and only three years old. Plus cleaners.
What are they even inspecting rooms for?
Middle_OAB also has a weekly cleaner, including bed linen change, and they have monthly manager inspection.
.
.
.
I have to say, middle_oab is in semi-sheltered halls with a bunch of 16 & 17 year olds, plus some vulnerable tenants in. Glasgow College are utterly brilliant with them - and expectations such as cleaner (who acts like the matriarch for the halls, in a really nice way), room inspections, receptionists knowing everyone by name etc is just brilliant. They even bought everyone a houseplant when they moved in 🙂
And costs less than Uni accommodation - like much less. 😎
I am convinced the whole Uni thing borders a ponzi / gravy train of money that can be extracted. And comparing halls from eldest_oab in a Uni or his private accommodation this year with middle_oab's is amazing - the college is 30% less and much, much better quality.
The ‘inspectors’ knock the door, no answer, unlock and open it but find that it’s chained from the inside. At what point should they be concerned about there being no response from somebody who is obviously in the room? If the person had overdosed, collapsed, had an epileptic fit, and they had just left without gaining access to the room, then this conversation would be rather different.
Occams razor.
Completely unacceptable behaviour which could, I think, be described as a gross invasion of privacy.
Unless martinhutch, another concerned parent or student escalates this the staff involved have no reason to not repeat their behaviour.
I cannot see any justification for them acting as they did; there is every justification for them not to have behaved as they did.
Start with Student Welfare and escalate from there.
she’s the bill payer,
I wish. 🙂
so needed to get in to check on the occupant
Which they didn't subsequently do.
Anyhow, all this has been pointed out to the Manager in a polite way. At the end of the day hopefully they'll have a discussion about how to approach room inspections which don't lead to annoying dads ringing them up for a chat.
Occams razor.
Schrodinger's Student. She was certainly in a state when they left.
Perfectly OK to have a designated third part act on your behalf to request a Subject Access Request, although even if you script it you may as well get your daughter to sign/send it.
Depending on the HOR provider's relationship with the university you could also ask a Freedom of Information request about what their policy is on inspections, what are the protocols if they get no response, etc. You could also ask how many complaints they have received for similar actions, etc. Even if they are totally separate you want want to do that with the Uni anyway in case they are turning a blind eye to such behaviour.
I too cannot get that they entered a room they knew was occupied, without what seems like a thought through process, and left with out a welfare check.
Sorry, but the 'ah minimum wage, poorly trained' doesn't cut it. At very least in that situation I would expect all staff are DBS and have had some training before working in a residential setting. Again, middle_OAB's hall staff are a *all* PVG (Scottish DBS), mental first aid and first aid trained. They also have all their pics on the wall as to who they are at the entrance.
EDIT: to add, we had simple protocols at the residential outdoor centre in this scenario. We had always one staff member of each sex, plus one of the visiting teachers/leaders/youth workers. You knocked 3 times, in increasing intensity. You opened the door adjar and introduced who you were and asked anyone in the room to say their name. Then the next question was if they were OK, then you *told them* that three people were coming into the room and they had a moment to get dressed if they needed. Then you went into the room...
A friend of mine has a company that has built and runs 6 uni halls of residence around the country. He says that suicide rates have more than tripled in the last 3 years.
Much as it's unpleasant on whoever has to clean up its still really non of their concern. She's an adult.. she's not sectioned
Lets say they had a report or some other reason to think this was the case they we are getting into a grey area perhaps but they obviously don't or lets assume MartinHutch would have said... and we are talking about the "normal case"
Imagine what would have happened if the occupant was actually in need of hospital treatment and had been ignored.
Again I'm assuming she didn't ask for this visit... so she wasn't being ignored. They called on her, she didn't call them, she's not registered with them with some medical condition. People die in hotels every day... so again we are talking here about "the normal case".
Either that or by some miraculous chance they happened to turn up whilst she was committing suicide or desperately needed medical help?
As Tonyf1 says
Occams razor.
And not only did they come to the same conclusion once but twice in the same flat?
What were they thinking mass suicide pacts or legionella from the AC?
Basically we are left with "we turned up so lets just force entry so we don't need to come back" or maybe "she's flushing the banned toaster** down the toilet" or she's asleep or in the shower or just doesn't want to answer the frickin door right now.
**Whatever the toaster** is there is a process and its not "let yourself in removing the chain"
What does FFFF (4Fs) stand for?
Web search suggests something inappropriate to this scenario.
First Find the **** Facts
Regardless of whether letter was sent etc.
It is totally unacceptable to simply enter unless emergency or with serious concern.
She was terrified, froze, and kept quiet under the covers. Perhaps wouldn’t be everyone’s reaction, but we’re all different.
That seems entirely plausible to me (assuming she didn't hear what were presumably the original knocks?). What seems less plausible is that the staff removed that chain (which can realistically only be fitted if someone is inside) and yet didn't check on her welfare. I can believe if the room was not chained that it may just have been a mess and a small terrified girl hiding under the covers could go unnoticed. I don't believe anyone can remove a chain and not question where the occupant is, or if they assume hiding under a cover is not in need of medical attention. I'm also surprised that the chain is easy to remove and that they just had whatever tools were needed immediately to hand.
They admitted removing the chain, the welfare issue was the ‘excuse’, but obviously that doesn’t wash because they just then inspected the room and left without checking her.
Do you think they actually know if the chain was removed? I mean universities are huge if you managed to get to someone who KNEW that you did well. I suspect that is just the "well if we took the chain off its for welfare reasons" excuse. You see this is why she should have gone to see them herself - then she could question why they didn't actually check she was alive then.
I’m personally quite happy that she trusts me enough to pick up the phone to me when something scares the shit out of her.
That's good and I was pleased when my son called me asking for advice about a problem in his student flat - but I taught/coached him how to deal with it rather than did it for him.
I don’t believe anyone can remove a chain and not question where the occupant is, or if they assume hiding under a cover is not in need of medical attention.
Yep. Chain on means someone is inside. Why would they just leave? What were they supposed to be inspecting anyway and did they carry on with the inspection?
That’s good and I was pleased when my son called me asking for advice about a problem in his student flat – but I taught/coached him how to deal with it rather than did it for him.
But there are degrees of concern aren't there? A single person having their own personal space invaded by strangers breaking in is significantly different to someone who is upset that someone else isn't doing their share of clearing up in the kitchen.
It's a grey area - yes in theory they are adults and have the responsibility that comes with it but the Universities do have a responsibility for the welfare of their students - I think it's considered a workplace even?
This was written at the time of the pandemic but a lot is still relevant;
from slide 8
A university will owe a duty of care to students in the way that it delivers services. This will include the provision of pastoral support and taking reasonable steps required to protect the health and wellbeing of students.
But the scope of this duty and when a breach would occur has not been tested in the courts very widely.
Whilst the OFS published guidance on creating effective mental health support, this is not a “How to” guide, more of a set of markers of what can be done (Insight Brief 2019: Mental Health: Are all students being properly supported).
The Universities minister wrote to all universities in 2018 to say that the wellbeing of students was a “non negotiable” priority.
But there is no real clarity about how that works in practice.
and there have been some profile cases recently where Universities haven't done a good enough job, with very sad outcomes.
And it wouldn't necessarily be only MH issues; students could have an accident, choke on vomit, all sorts.
Again, not saying that the right process was followed here, or that the threshold at which forcing an entry becomes appropriate was reached. Just saying that presumptions of 'they're adults, it's all on them' or 'you should never enter a locked and chained room' are not correct.
Based on the Uni’s I attended/worked at:
Your daughter should have someone in her academic department responsible for her pastoral care - personal tutor, senior tutor or similar. She should contact them about it. If similar happened to one of my tutees I’d be spitting feathers. As well as a massive invasion of privacy, it’s something that could affect academic performance.
The Uni should have a student welfare team and the SU a student welfare rep (possibly a housing rep too). Both will want to know about this.
Uni-owned halls often have some sort of student rep too, who would need to know. No idea if this happens in private halls.
If your daughter needs some moral support, she should ask a friend (preferably from the same accommodation) to go with her to see some of the above people. Many of those services/people above may not be permitted to deal with a parent rather than the student themselves (ironically for privacy reasons).
IMO and with a bit of understanding of the law ( in Scotland) you could only break in immediately if you had clear indication that someone was dying inside or in extreme distress. IE clear and immediate danger.
Without those indications there will be a procedure to follow
the claims of "welfare check" are completely bogus IMO
They cannot just simply enter the room. They must given plenty of "warnings" before even attempting to enter. Call or knock as loud as possible. They can also open the door slightly to call out and if it is a female student they need to get the female employee to enter if they are really concerned.
They cannot just simply enter the room. They must given plenty of “warnings” before even attempting to enter. Call or knock as loud as possible. They can also open the door slightly to call out and if it is a female student they need to get the female employee to enter if they are really concerned.
Well indeed, but the girl was asleep with ear plugs in and evidently didn't hear the intitial knocks, but evidently did wake up at some point during proceedings. It's a bit unclear at what point she woke up and what happened in that period.
If you thought somone was dying in the room then you have both the right and duty to break in – but IMO this goes nowhere near the standard. There should be procedure in place for welfare checks – ask for it
I’d be asking to view their procedures as per TJ’s post and ask for a breakdown of what happened and why they took the actions they did at the time. What lead them to think there was a cause for concern, what are the protocols in this case and were they followed. More crucially if they did have concerns and followed outlined protocols why did they then leave a scared young woman hiding under the covers and perform a standard inspection, whatever the **** that is.
Absolutely terrible behaviour on behalf of the men performing the inspection and their direct report/manager. I’d be really pissed off if that we’re my daughter.
I’m conflicted. If it played out as described by OP it’s not on at all, but I also think it very odd they broke in and then didn’t check on the welfare of a girl hiding under her bed covers. That last bit, if true, is even more worrying in my eyes, she could have been sick or worse
As an aside, I remember many a time waking up hung over in my student dorm to find the cleaner emptying the ash tray and removing all the beer cans from the floor. She was quite fit as well as I recall. Happy days indeed 😂
Well indeed, but the girl was asleep with ear plugs in and evidently didn’t hear the intitial knocks, but evidently did wake up at some point during proceedings. It’s a bit unclear at what point she woke up and what happened in that period.
Regardless, if the maintenance (I assume) guys are still concerned they should get the female staff to do the initial quick check to confirm if the student/occupant is alright. The Uni accommodation knew they were going to do maintenance check surely they could arrange for a female member of staff to be around.
As an aside, I remember many a time waking up hung over in my student dorm to find the cleaner emptying the ash tray and removing all the beer cans from the floor. She was quite fit as well as I recall. Happy days indeed 😂
Lucky you. During my undergraduate years all I got was cleaners waking me up mid morning then sitting in our kitchen having 'fags' chatting away loudly after they cleaned the flat (Uni student shared flat). They used our kitchen as their "HQ" (because we didn't mind) so all the other cleaners came around having tea / coffee and fags (7 or 8 of them). I let them shared my tea/coffee because they are good laugh to be honest.
what poly says. There is always another side to the story.
I work at student halls P/T and the tales that go back to mummy and daddy bare no resemblance to what actually happens on site, many a time I have to remind little Cuthbert and Jemima that there is CCTV through out the building in common areas and stop being little shits. It has been used many times to disprove their version of events when they whine back home when given anti social warnings for their actions.
We give 1 months notice for inspections, quite often they forget or never bothered looking at email. we check to see if room has not trashed or repainted I've seen some done all back and parents moan when the deposit is withheld, also no extra prohibited electricals such as stand alone hobs/cookers , gas items etc I've seen mini kitchens constructed within bed sit flats, That smoke/fire detection hasn't been covered up rubbish has not built as afire hazard or to attract vermin. Some kitchens are grim.
But as usual the kids we be right and staff are monsters.
Ask the University's Designated Safeguarding Lead for their policy on unconsensual room searches and entry.
And the DSL's view of male only staff forcing an entry to a female students residence.
So after a couple of pages, the OP who was looking for a second opinion and a bit of perspective has found out that he is a fibber and a bad parent. Classic STW.
I'm sorry if I've questioned parenting skills if that's aimed at me. I thought the OP and I had a fair conversation about why I'm in favour of letting her sort it out and he is more inclined to sort it himself. I think the only person accused of bad parenting was me, and since I levelled the accusation I think I'm entitled to self reflection.
Man asks question, people give opinions that are different, some people get the hump when their opinion isn't universally agreed. Classic STW.
And I still think the first response on the thread of threatening legal action is over the top.
I'm just hoping it keeps going long enough for me to post graduation photos.
Thanks for all the abuse advice. 🙂
This could run through first degree, masters and PhD!
I find it quite endearing that when reading of a lone female having her privacy invaded (regardless of how long ago an email was sent) there are still good men out there fighting the good fight and jumping straight to character assassination without let or hinder.
Doing us proud brothers, doing us proud.
*slow clap*
squirrel - your post is pointless and stupid.
Discussion would be the same if thread had been about male student; same concerns, same principles, same parental concern.
Would it?
Regardless. The notion that they forced entry due to welfare concerns is bullshit. It's not hard to unscrew a security chain but it takes time, if the safety of the resident was in question then a carefully placed size 8 would bypass the chain way quicker than a screwdriver.
Yes, it would.
Personally, I don't they should have entered without a female staffer present.
If anything is to change in the team's oprrations, it's that point. They know very well who is in each room.
Suicide is a problem. The universities are trying to finding ways of preventing it happening within their student bodies. If notices went out, and a student had headphones blaring loudly, then this situation is within bounds to a point (male only staff being my issue)
Who would I have words with? (not a complaint as such, but a "learning exoerience") The university staff themselves. In a reasonable and fairly calm manner. I would not trust the jocks and cheerleaders earning 20k+ on the Student Union external charitably based organizations to do the right/competent thing where individual welfare is concerned.
Reasonable conversations can lead to greater ties in future with staff which is more beneficial than being that student who is "hot to handle".