Hard times create hard men
Hard men are emotionally damaged
Which creates problems for their children
Best to avoid hard times if possible
^^ 👍
I guess if you've money, privilege and slaves to do all the tedious drudgery for you, then devoting your time to the attainment of virtue fills the time...Mind you having said that, do you want to take advice from some-one who went through life consulting the oracle for all major life decisions, and it advised him once to take on the "complexion of the dead".
Look, it was almost 30 years ago I was at university. I just remembered the barrel and him asking someone to get out of his sunlight.
Good grief, it must be gloomy in Greece if you need to light a lantern when someone stands in the sun putting you in the shadow. Almost like Swansea today, I'm thinking.. 😀
https://stephenbaines.medium.com/9-principles-of-stoicism-which-will-improve-your-life-6ca089c8eb37
I used to work with Stephen. He'll be pleased he's being linked on a mountain bike forum.
On the broader point, it seems we are agreed that stiff upper lips are bad and out of fashion, but Stoicism would be good.
Good grief, it must be gloomy in Greece if you need to light a lantern when someone stands in the sun putting you in the shadow. Almost like Swansea today, I’m thinking.
I'm sure a stoic mindset is a benefit in Swansea at this time of year.
I don't know what stoicism is and can't be arsed to look it up as it seems multiple people here think it means different things.
I do however know that toxic masculinity is a thing. Man up. Big boys don't cry. Are you a man or a mouse? And a supporting cast of thousands of others. And **** that, we're not robots.
In wholly unrelated news, three quarters of all UK suicides are male. Which, obviously, we're not allowed to talk about.
Funny enough I was talking to my Counsellor yesterday about Stoicism.
All that 'stiff upper lip' stuff... that's not Stoicism, in fact, most of that thinking comes from post-war propaganda, it lead to a lot of Boomers trying to live to a how they thought their hero fathers lived, at least the hollywood version of it. If you want to try to live your life hiding all emotion, bad or good, that's up to you. If you think it'll make you seem like that Actor in an old War film who stands to attention as his ship goes down, it won't, you'll just end up like that moody bloke down the pub who can only express himself with anger.
As it was explained to me at least, it's accepting that things can, and will go wrong, that you can be sad, angry or whatever, but it's not the end of the world and we can all, usually, dust ourselves off and carry on.
IME People who are annoyed by others showing their emotions, or "whining all the time" etc are the most repressed themselves, as if witnessing someone else's emotions be the final straw that will cause them to lose control of their own.
If you think it’ll make you seem like that Actor in an old War film who stands to attention as his ship goes down, it won’t, you’ll just end up like that moody bloke down the pub who can only express himself with anger.
Also, you'll drown.
I don’t know what stoicism is and can’t be arsed to look it up as it seems multiple people here think it means different things
It is a school of philosophy espoused by some of the ancients. If you decide you can be arsed, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius (as seen in Gladiator) is an easy and rewarding read.
The start of this thread coincided with the one I started about my Dad. If it's that which prompted your feelings on this then I'm sorry. I've always seen this place as somewhere people can let others know how they are feeling, more so than in real life, and get some genuine good advice.
I've done bottling it up and not letting people know what was going on and it nearly broke me
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I don't see as you have anything to apologise for. If it makes people think then quite the opposite in fact.
@spin - cheers, I have a "to read" list that's almost as embarrassing as my Steam Library shelf of shame but if you recommend it then I'll stick it on the list.
Need more Stackovites….
Dig for Victory comrades.
Stakhanovite.. try to get it right... 🙂
Great thread.
Stoicism is very attractive as it lends itself very easily yo practical everyday application. However, I wonder if you would end up appearing very emotionally dead as a result?
Going back to OP's original point I often wonder if the rise in emotional outpouring is linked to the rise of populism? Unreason and reliance on visceral passions has always been a tool of the right. Nietzsche would have hated stoicism.
It's very applicable to cycling as well.
Oh it's raining, well I'll just get wet and not complain. I've done it before and I know it works out OK in the end.
Unless it's that windy rain that hits you in the face and really stings. Then it can **** right off.
If anyone's on Instagram, 'Daily Stoic' is a good follow.
cheers, I have a “to read” list that’s almost as embarrassing as my Steam Library shelf of shame but if you recommend it then I’ll stick it on the list
For free: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680
It's the sort of thing you can dip into or read in its entirety. One of the central ideas is that although we have no control over what life throws at us we do have control over how we respond. Obviously that's a bit simplistic because a lot of mental illness involves people not feeling in control of their responses but I still think it's a really powerful and empowering idea.
hat windy rain that hits you in the face and really stings. Then it can **** right off
i hear you brother
Since toxic masculinity has been mentioned and as it's my birthday (in April) I thought I'd mention toxic femininity. You know, the one where a woman posts on Facebook That she's just climbed the Eiger Nordwand in winter and 90% of the comments from women are on the lines of "how beautiful you look". It starts when girls are still in their cots that folk, usually women, tell them how beautiful they look and it goes downhill from there.
Have lit the blue touch paper, now I'm off...merry christmas everyone! 🙂
has always been a tool of the right. Nietzsche would have hated stoicism
@shooterman Nietzsche wasn't right wing. That came from his sister taking over his writing after he died.
Not so sure. Interesting listen:
Have you read any of his work? I didn't get right wing at all, and certainly not antisemitic from Beyond Good and Evil. In fact, he was rather complimentary towards Judaism. Not quite a strong Nazi vibe at all.
His sister, Elizabeth, was apparently ultra-nationalist. Took over his manuscripts after his death. Followers of his work fought to get the nationalism removed.
I'd rather read the author's work and make a decision rather than listen to a book based on likely historical inaccuracies.
It is a school of philosophy espoused by some of the ancients.
and it can also mean to show no pain or complaint during hardship. It's OK for a word to have two meanings.
@swdan no, it's a coincidence - I hope things go as well as they can for you.
It’s OK for a word to have two meanings.
Indeed, even more than 2. And it's also ok to discuss one of the meanings without referring to the others.
Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create the Dark Side.
Fixed.
Also, if not being stoic means that people don't bottle stuff up then that can only be a good thing.
It doesn’t even survive contact with milliseconds of critical thought. The 1st world war – that would seem fairly hard times. Those men created a great depression (shite) and then started the 2nd world war (shitest).
Or
WW1
Roaring 20s
Depression+WW2
Boomers
Thatcher
90s, North sea oil, property, dot.com booms
Current shitshow.
Bacchus was a bit more up my street.
Nietzsche would have hated stoicism.
How so? Or are you referring to Nietzsche being horrifically miss used by the Nazis? There is a good book "Nietzsche and the Nazis" that is on YouTube as an audiobook.
Edit: I see it's linked above.
On the two meanings for one word it's interesting. It seems from the definition linked to by the op that it's one of those cases where an incorrect definition has (for some reason maybe cultural) occurred and then become the more commonly known definition. This then means it is correct within "normal" conversation for many so can be correct in its usage in a set context in a particular conversion even though the actual definition is incorrect.
So it may be correct to say that "John is reacting in a stoic manner", to say he is bottling things up in a conversion maybe about someone dealing with grief. As it is using a common definition of the word stoic or stoicism.
However it is not correct to say stoicism is about bottling things up, as this this trying to define stoicism incorrectly, rather than the word I a particular common context.
Loads of other things end up having this right but ring definition. I personally didn't know about the definition linked to so it's good to know that many think this is the definition so that I can interpret a conversation correctly. This is obviously important and a big part of conversation is the implicit assumption of a shared definition of terms, words, phrases etc.
I’d rather read the author’s work and make a decision rather than listen to a book based on likely historical inaccuracies.
The book linked actually does a good job of showing how far off the Nazis where from his writings and how they missed them.
(Not an expert in this by any means just my interpretation / readings).
swdan
Free Member
The start of this thread coincided with the one I started about my Dad. If it’s that which prompted your feelings on this then I’m sorry.
I can't speak for the op but I doubt your completely understandable and heartfelt thread was in his head when he started this.
As cougar said, you have nothing,zero at all to apologise for matey.
On the two meanings for one word it’s interesting.
With stoicism, I think it's mostly the difference between technical usage and colloquial usage, made more confusing by the fact that the colloquial usage is related to the technical term.
The word philosophical gets used in a similar way. When we describe someone as being philosophical about something we usually mean resigned to it not that they've undertaken some in depth analysis of it!
Context innit?
@spin definitely, like most things contex and perspective.
Which tenously links round to...
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
I'm not so sure about that, I'd like to maintain that there is such a thing objective truth in some matters but I'm also immediately wary of anything that's claimed as such! Also, many of the most interesting and useful things we can say certainly aren't amenable to outright proof or wouldn't meet most people's standards for objective truth.
You know, the one where a woman posts on Facebook That she’s just climbed the Eiger Nordwand in winter and 90% of the comments from women are on the lines of “how beautiful you look”. It starts when girls are still in their cots that folk, usually women, tell them how beautiful they look and it goes downhill from there.
No one else has picked up on this so I thought I would. 🙂
Definitely something in this and it chimes with some of my concerns about gender identity. I've worked in a few schools with large numbers of transgender pupils. Nothing wrong with that at all but they are overwhelmingly female to male. Obviously there's lots of stuff at work there like the levels of stigma with transitioning in different directions. However, based on the number of female-male transitions I wonder if a lot of these young people are not actually transgender men but women that don't feel they fit into the very narrow definition of femininity our society still offers. Basically, if you're not a girly girl where do you fit in? And if you're not a pretty, girly girl then a lot of the messaging girls are seeing might lead them to conclude they're transgender when in fact the reality might be that they are women but just not stereo-typically.
Edit: Basically what I'm saying is that there are many ways to be a woman... how woke am I? 🙂
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact.
... in your opinion.
Basically what I’m saying is that there are many ways to be a woman… how woke am I?
Only Shania Twain knows for sure what is is to feel like a woman
Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.
You are Laurence Fox and I claim my £5.
I am naturally stoic, I find it very useful in as much as just being able to get on with things, but it does make me come across as rather cold.
I recently started a charity, working with people I never would encounter before. I find it bizarre how often people tell you their problems e.g try arrange a zoom call and you don't get 'sorry I can't make it' you get endless insights into cahotic lives. I do think a bit of stocism would go a long way, but maybe I have not suffered the same.
It is fine to use the common colloquial meaning of stoicism but the philosophical definition is much more interesting, IMO.
I find it bizarre how often people tell you their problems e.g try arrange a zoom call and you don’t get ‘sorry I can’t make it’ you get endless insights into cahotic lives.
'Oversharing' type behaviour is often rooted in things like ADHD, bipolar, trauma etc. Also, one person's oversharing is another person's 'making deeper connections'.
I can see how some might think the balance has tipped too far towards talking about everything but it's far healthier than the opposite, IMO.
Since toxic masculinity has been mentioned and as it’s my birthday (in April) I thought I’d mention toxic femininity.
Isn't that still just toxic masculinity?
Stoicism is one thing.
Living in a society where you are discouraged from expressing feelings ****S people up (men more than women).
Over sharing is a good term for it, it often strikes me as quite self indulgent and just very impractical as nearly every conversation turns into variations of 'so sorry to hear that'. Everyone has challenges, but volunteering is completely optional..
I do worry how fragile so many people seem, out of 30 or so core volunteers there are probably only 3 or 4 uncomplicated people that you can rely on not matter what.
Can't help but feeling you're in the wrong job @g5604
I wonder what you expected. And I wonder why you started the charity in the first place.
Sorry for sounding critical but I can't help but feel you come over as rather superior as well as cold. And while those involved with charities often genuinely want to make a difference to other people's lives, it's also often the case that they are getting as much out of it as those they are helping although different needs might be being met.
Just a thought.
I was talking candidly, I am very patient and understanding in practice.
