[Closed] Speeding motorists - why?

Cougar - Moderator

I did a speed awareness course and answered in the positive to the question of whether I considered myself an "above average" driver. This, I was told, is overconfidence; but I wasn't really commenting on how great a driver I thought I was, I was commenting on how shit everyone else is.

Yep. TBH I'd be perfectly happy to be able to say I'm average- I'm a reasonable driver, but too many people aren't.

I'd be very surprised if any man on here regarded them self as anything other than average or better when it comes to driving - yet it's pretty obvious if you watch a road for 5 minutes that it's simply not the case.

But wait, what if people take a long hard look at themselves and realise that maybe, just maybe they aren't a good driver? Maybe they should even stop doing it for the safety of others? Their world would end - they can't get to work, they lose their independence and they are seen as an oddity in general society. That's why it doesn't happen.

It's easy to look at others an judge, and it's even easier to forgive your own errors if there are no consequences.

One day though, there may be a consequence. And that consequence could be the taking of another person's life. I'm sure some will say that's a bit serious and unlikely, and that might be true.

All I know is, I never want to end someone's life because I was only thinking of myself.

Here's an idea:

All roads are converted to a tram/track system. The grid is powered remotely and speeds altered accordingly. People can still have cars (though they won't have an engine), so there's no need to actually travel anywhere under your own steam, or mix with the beastly proletariat. Those with self esteem/confidence issues can even by a more expensive/shinier PCB (Personal Carriage Box) to distinguish themselves above their friends if need be. Routes will be programmed into an on-dash computer and paid for by the mile.

Its the people who trundle along at 20-30mph in 40-50 zones that are my biggest bugbear. If there's no reason not to do the speed limit then why don't they do it?! That's what leads to stupid overtakes in my experience and that's when the danger element kicks in.

It's a limit, not a target, and there's no obligation to overtake. If people want to drive slower and give themselves more time to react to hazards, then let them. Any danger is caused entirely by the people doing impatient overtakes.

This does not, of course, apply to the oblivious mono-speeders doing 40 in an NSL, and then 40 in a 30.

pdw - Member

It's a limit, not a target

And another fails the basic driving test.

And another fails the basic driving test.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Spin - Member

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Yes, if on your test you fail to make progress when it is safe to do so, you will fail.
In other words, the speed limit is a target to achieve when safe to do so.

As a genuine driving God, I feel no need to contribute to this thread.

😀

But wait, what if people take a long hard look at themselves and realise that maybe, just maybe they aren't a good driver?

Whilst this makes a good point, I wonder if the process of believing you're above average could be the best way to drive on today's roads.
People who lack confidence in their driving can sometimes cause a reduction in the flow of traffic, which in turn leads to frustration and aggressive driving.

Yes, if on your test you fail to make progress when it is safe to do so, you will fail

Surely there's a whole world of options between not doing the limit and failing to make progress?

what if people take a long hard look at themselves and realise that maybe, just maybe they aren't a good driver?

It's even got a name:

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect ]The Dunning-Kruger effect[/url]

Spin - Member

Surely there's a whole world of options between not doing the limit and failing to make progress?

If it is safe to drive at the speed limit and you fail to drive at the speed limit, you will fail the test.

I'm not sure I can put that more clearly.

what if people take a long hard look at themselves and realise that maybe, just maybe they aren't a good driver?

Then they should strive to improve.
If only the motoring world had someone like Jedi or any of the other well known instructors...

If it is safe to drive at the speed limit and you fail to drive at the speed limit, you will fail the test.

Are you aware of that ever happening?

What margin of error is one given by an examiner? If I was doing 27 in a 30 when it was safe to do 30 would I fail?

Sounds odd to me unless your low speed constituted a hazard to other road users.

Sounds odd to me unless your low speed constituted a hazard to other road users.

Indirectly yes as it encourages people to overtake you, which can be dangerous....

Spin - Member

Are you aware of that ever happening?

What margin of error is one given by an examiner? If I was doing 27 in a 30 when it was safe to do 30 would I fail?

Sounds odd to me unless your low speed constituted a hazard to other road users.

Yes.
Don't know.
Do you have a driving licence (not trying to sound rude, but it's stuff you should have been taught if you have)?

it's stuff you should have been taught if you have)?

It was 20 odd years ago.

When I was a lot younger (late teens early twenties) I did a lot of speeding on the country roads behind where I lived. The OP asked why people speed. In my case it was simply because it was good fun and I got an adrenalin rush from it. Looking back I did some really stupid things and was a complete a**e at times. However hindsight is a wonderful thing and in those days I didn't t cycle, and indeed there were far fewer cyclists on the road.

These days I'm a lot older and drive mostly within the limits. It's not so much the fear of getting caught, more the fear that driving like a moron could kill or injure someone totally innocent, and I'd have to live with that guilt the rest of my life. The fact I now cycle a lot has also changed my views of speeding.

When I see some youngster in a car doing something daft part of me wants to see the police catch them and throw the book at them. However there's another part of me that, while not condoning it, can kind of see why they are doing it.

I guess the obvious answer is to get more kids mountain biking and let them get their adrenalin rushes that way!

I was pulled over and chastised for not speeding when overtaking on an advanced motoribike assessed ride. My instructor was a police motorbike rider (on duty). The correct method, for a motorbike overtake, is to use the full power to minimise the duration of the overtake and then roll back to the speed limit (ie not braking). It did feel very odd riding round the lanes of Cambridgeshire at 90+ with a police bike following 100 yards behind....

I was pulled over and chastised for not speeding when overtaking on an advanced motoribike assessed ride. My instructor was a police motorbike rider (on duty).

I agree that on the whole a quick overtaking manouevre is a safe one. However when I did a speed awareness course the instructor said that was no excuse.

I was taught by my driving instructor that you should be doing the limit if it's safe to do so. So straight but of NSL road you do 60 if it's safe to do so, not 40. Likewise if it's inky safe to do 40 due to rain, visibility you do 40.

The old duffers who just do 40 everywhere are just as dangerous as those breaking the limit. Firstly they ignore the 30 limit but then by going so slowly in clear NSL roads they hold others up and encourage them to overtake or do something silly. People get frustrated, I don't think I'd believe anyone who says that they wouldn't. Those who maintain a steady 40 everywhere are the same as those who bimble on trails and dint give way to faster riders.

Spin - Member

It was 20 odd years ago.

Time for a refresher! 😀

Seriously, I think everyone who wants to drive should have continual reassessment.

Seriously, I think everyone who wants to drive should have continual reassessment.

Are you a driving instructor?

FunkyDunc - Member

Cheekyboy that makes you just as selfish riding a mountain bike
Posted 4 hours ago #

I have obviously not held you up on the trail then with my considerate and safe riding. 🙂

Indirectly yes as it encourages people to overtake you, which can be dangerous..

So shall we ban all HGV from NSL single carraiage way roads then, as they are speeding at 41 / 60 so limiting everyones else's ability to 'make progress'

I am rubbing my chin and not entirely sure that if you drive at 50mph in a NSL you will fail your driving test.

Alot of buying into the freedom of the open road dream and the joy of motoring on this thread.

As for targets

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/driving/speed/toptentips/maximum.aspx

Speed overview

The County Council is responsible for setting speed limits on all public roads, except motorways and trunk roads.

Speed limits are set in accordance with criteria and guidance developed by the Department for Transport (DfT). The criteria ensure that speed limits are set in a consistent way that drivers understand and which promote road safety.

Drivers have a responsibility to drive carefully and safely, in accordance with the prevailing conditions on any road, which can often mean travelling at speeds considerably lower than the posted maximum limit. A speed limit is not a target speed.

Several factors are taken into account in the assessment of a road or area for a speed limit. These include:

General character of the road or area
Type and extent of roadside development
Traffic composition
Accident history
Current traffic speed
Enforcement
The frequency of junctions
Presence of amenities that attract pedestrians and cyclists
Environmental impact such as increased journey times, vehicles emissions, and the visual impact of the signing.

To be effective and influential a speed limit depends on drivers responding to these factors, particularly those with a visual impact. The speed limit should provide a key indication of the nature of the road or area and the activity of motorised and non-motorised road users. In this sense, the speed limit should fit the location so that the majority of drivers keep to the limit with minimal police attention.

The existing traffic speeds must be close to the proposed speed limit, to ensure compliance. If speeds are too high, then other measures may be considered to physically control speeds in exceptional cases where a speed limit reduction is recommended for safety reasons.

THINK! Advice

Drive to suit the conditions of the road
In some road conditions, even driving at the speed limit could be too fast. Factors that affect road conditions include fog, rain and traffic flow. The national speed limit is not a target speed.

The OP asked why people speed

NO I DIDN'T!! I know why they speed, ignorance, lack of concentration, stupidity, sometimes even because the road / conditions are conducive to it, etc.

I asked why when motorists are speeding on a bit of road that doesn't support it, other motorists go out of their way to stop them being caught for it. You wouldn't condone shoplifting, even more make efforts to warn the shoplifter there a store detective about to give them a better chance of getting away with it, so why is it 'the done thing' on roads?

Read the OP again.

The national speed limit is not a target speed

Apparently that would cause you to fail your driving test.

I asked why when motorists are speeding on a bit of road that doesn't support it, other motorists go out of their way to stop them being caught for it. You wouldn't condone shoplifting, even more make efforts to warn the shoplifter there a store detective about to give them a better chance of getting away with it, so why is it 'the done thing' on roads?

Because the person giving the warning thinks the posted speed limit is too low and is OK with both himself and other drivers breaking it.

As for shoplifters - other shoplifters would warn about store detectives so what is so surprising about drivers who sometimes speed warning other drivers about speed traps.

You might be close to the truth there. Which is worrying, because if true a significant proportion of drivers seemed to be ok with it.

I'm fine with the basis being you drive for the conditions but the speed limit should be a limit, whether you agree with it or not.

Speed cameras should be widespread, moved frequently, and hidden. Fines should be higher.

I reckon -
Limit + 10% £200 fine
Limit + 20% £400 fine plus 3 points
No 'hardship' exemption for >12 points.
Limit + 30% immediate ban of one year plus compulsory retest.
Driving while disqualified. Vehicle you're driving seized and sold.

There are lots of laws I don't agree with but we don't have the option of ignoring them.

They're safety cameras.

If by flashing other drivers, you're making them slow down, then you're helping the polis do their job. Is it better that everybody drives through at or under the speed limit or a few drive through at above the limit and get caught?

Yeah, right. Cos having a 'near miss' like this won't change behaviour at all, 3 points and a fine might. I get that argument with a fixed camera but the coppers will be gone in an hour and nothing will have changed apart from the few that were so unobservant that they still got done.

The cameras are there to make people slow down. The information on where they'll be is available on the web. They're not there to "catch" you. If I flash someone to warn them, I'm really just saying "Did you forget to check the speed camera locations on the web? Oh you did? Well, there's one up ahead. You'd better slow down." Which is less dangerous? Letting someone speed through and get caught or get everybody to slow down?

Again, read the op. It was a police radar trap, not a van or a fixed camera. I'm all for putting cameras in obvious locations where speed is an issue to get them to slow down, I'm also all for putting traps like this out to catch people who are either stupid, unobservant or feel it doesn't apply to them.

Again, read the op. It was a police radar trap, not a van or a fixed camera.

So, in your opinion, what difference does that make ?

NO I DIDN'T!! I know why they speed, ignorance, lack of concentration, stupidity, sometimes even because the road / conditions are conducive to it, etc.

I asked why when motorists are speeding on a bit of road that doesn't support it, other motorists go out of their way to stop them being caught for it. You wouldn't condone shoplifting, even more make efforts to warn the shoplifter there a store detective about to give them a better chance of getting away with it, so why is it 'the done thing' on roads?

Read the OP again.

You know what, you're absolutely right and I apologise. I didn't read the OP properly. My fault. My only slight defence is that your opening line was "Does anyone actually think speeding is good?".

Again, read the op. It was a police radar trap, not a van or a fixed camera.

Whichever it is, by telling everybody to slow down, you're making everybody safer.

Sitting here with a severely broken arm due to a speeding, dangerous driver. I find it a bit sickening people take unnecessary risks and speed for enjoyment. Even if they feel they are a good driver.

Fair enough Kenny, that was more directed at the proportion of folks that warn the speeders rather than let them get caught.

Others, I edited my prior post which I hope answers why it's different to me, but if the oncoming motorists are really warning the others that it's a 40 limit, then surely they'd be flashing irrespective of whether the police were there or not? So get honest, because that was why. Seems like a large proportion feel it's ok and it's more important that they get away with it.

As in my op re phone use, i think a bit of active entrapment is justified.

I sometimes drive my car faster than i should (though likely within speed limits as they are twisty roads) - being honest i do it as it is enjoyable.

Am i observant when doing this, hell yes. Am i concentrating on driving the car and nothing else, yes. Am i therefore safer than some pleb dawdling while daydreaming about tonights dinner or some rubbish, most likely!

Speed can kill, but i bet cretins driving like crap and those that dont concentrate kill more.

Some cars do simply go and stop better than your 7 seater school run bus too you know...

From previous threads many of you drive performance cars, i suppose just for looks then?

Do i warn speeders? Every time! Most of them are not in situations where the op lives (where it is 100% wrong to speed btw!) they are in areas where people dawdle past at a little over the limit on their daily procession home from work - moneymaking is all that amounts to.

[quote=Spin ]

The national speed limit is not a target speed

footflaps - Member - Quote
I was pulled over and chastised for not speeding when overtaking on an advanced motoribike assessed ride. My instructor was a police motorbike rider (on duty). The correct method, for a motorbike overtake, is to use the full power to minimise the duration of the overtake and then roll back to the speed limit (ie not braking).

I'm also all for putting traps like this out to catch people who are either stupid, unobservant or feel it doesn't apply to them.

So regarding being flashed and warned about an upcoming speed trap.......

So it's ok if I'm speeding all day long, but I'm observant enough to spot the speed trap and slam the anchors on just in time.

But it not ok if I'm speeding all day long, but slow down in a more controlled manner because someone flashed me to warn me of a speed trap half a mile away ?

Correct ?

But it not ok if I'm speeding all day long, but slow down in a more controlled manner because someone flashed me to warn me of a speed trap half a mile away ?
Correct ?

Exactly - i bet more accidents and deaths take place due to morons drivin with no care in the world than those speeding, my oh has 2 friends who have written off 2 and 3 cars each, both absolutely hate speeders and agressive driving, they are just plain unobservant plebs who drive in their own dreamworlds

scotroutes - Member

Sorry, but I'm calling complete bollocks.

It's not quite what I was told on my Bikesafe course, but not so far off. Not "use full power" specifically but "overtake as fast as you like, it's safer than worrying about the limit" Safer btw, not safe vs unsafe- he wasn't advocating making passes that needed huge speed.

Bikesafe as it was explained to me is designed as a "how you ride" thing, not like an IAM observed ride, they'll tell you if you're dangerous I assume but they're not so bothered about pure legality. The idea being to make people safer with their real world riding, rather than testing their ability to ride like they have a policeman behind them, then they leave and go back to normal.

Ive seen more near misses on the A66 caused by vehicles travelling slowly, rather than the ones travelling quickly.

and whats speeding?

As a motorcyclist, van driver,mountain biker i only travel as fast as i can see, that might be 20mph past schools or 90mph motorway depending on the conditions.

A lot of incidents are caused by driver fustration imho, but you don't hear of prosecutions for inconsiderate or inappropriate road speed.. 😕

The two accidents I've had were because the driver in front of me was going too slowly. Both were when I was watching the roundabout while second in the queue. I figured it was good to go both times, but the buggers in front were going too slowly (well, one of them, not going at all). So, yeah, in 100% of my accidents, they were caused by the other driver not being fast enough.

I drive to the condition not the speed limits

And I can do it largely without fear of being caught. I probably break the speed limit multiple times a day and I've only been careless enough to be caught three times in 20yrs and several hundred thousand miles.

[quote=GaVgAs ]but you don't hear of prosecutions for inconsiderate or inappropriate road speed.. Yes you do, lots of times. It's referred to as "speeding".

Driver frustration !!

That will not stand up in court nor will it soothe lickle jimmys mum and dad as hes scraped into a body bag with no intact organs to donate.

Anyone on here lost a dear one to some bellend driver suffering from petulant arrogance aka driver frustration ??

So, yeah, in 100% of my accidents, they were caused by the other driver not being fast enough.

Or you not looking where you were going.

Nealg - honestly, neither is acceptable. My preference would be that you don't drive at inappropriate speeds at all, too fast or too slow. And if you do that you get caught and done for it. Instead of having the radar gun clearly visible 200 yards further on, I'd have it concealed and by the time you see the police, it's too late. Then folks may learn that you shouldn't be avoiding speeding penalties by keeping an eye out for cameras and radars, but by matching the number on your speedo to the signs by the side of the road.

Or you not looking where you were going.

No, no, no. If those other two had had something approaching my levels of anticipation, and taken off too, they wouldn't have been going so slowly (as mentioned one of them so slow he was bleedin stationary FFS) that I hit them.

Speeding is exceeding the national speed limit scotroutes,I am referring to people travelling slower than conditions allow, or "not making progress" as i was once criticised for in a police accompanied driver test. 😯 and i was on a motorcycle at 80mph!

If theres no such thing as driver frustration cheeky boy then why do we need to overtake?

maybe "driver impatience" is a better word

No, no, no. If those other two had had something approaching my levels of anticipation,

That's the problem. we're not all driving gods.

"That's the problem. we're not all driving gods."

Agree with riichmars,the throttle works both ways imho.. 😉

[quote=richmars ]
we're not all driving gods.
Apart from, apparently, everyone on this thread.

Living on the outskirts of a country village, 30mph limit, I see a lot of people cruising past my house, oblivious to all around them, at speeds well over the limit. I guess they think they are in control like many of the people above....
As the father of two young boys this crass ignorance and selfishness makes my blood boil.
Have tried complaining to coppers and councillors alike - not interested.

build you own speed bump like hal on malcom in the middle

"not making progress"

Tell my front bumper. 😡

one of them so slow he was bleedin stationary FFS

You drove into a stationary vehicle and you're trying to claim it was their fault?

a bit of active entrapment is justified

Speed trap

it is not a 'trap' or "entrapment" to enforce a clearly marked speed limit. If a driver accelerates ahead of a change in limit, or fails to anticipate a reduction and drop their speed appropriately it's just poor driving.

A lot of incidents are caused by driver fustration imho

Yep, a lot of danger on the road is caused by 'frustration' - ie people who don't have a temperament appropriate to hold a driving licence. They'd not be allowed to fly a plane, or drive a train, but we still let them loose with a car.

You drove into a stationary vehicle and you're trying to claim it was their fault?

Well, I dunno. I suppose it was debatable. There was plenty of room and time to join the roundabout. They didn't make progress and I did. They were both going too slowly. So it's true, see? Plenty of accidents are caused by people sometimes going too bloody slowly. 100% of mine were!

Trap, entrapment, maybe bad choice. What I mean is that it's time we stopped having to have the police visible from miles away just so it's 'fair' on the law breakers. It would be unfair if there weren't bloody great red and white signs with the numbers on, and a speedo on your dashboard giving you a big clue how fast you're allowed to go.

Well, I dunno. I suppose it was debatable.

It's not really. Is it

What I mean is that it's time we stopped having to have the police visible from miles away just so it's 'fair' on the law breakers.

It's not about catching speeders though is it.

It's about stopping people from speeding.

That's what they tell us anyway.

It's not really. Is it

Ok, I suppose not. I'm probably giving the other guys the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they were nervous and not in a hurry that day. I just wanted to make progress.

That's my point, we need both. Put the cameras up in those places where speed must be kept down so people can't speed there. But you can't cover the country, so in places where you shouldn't speed but there aren't enough incidents to justify a permanent camera, we have speed limits that people should adhere to. So we need a system to catch those that can't and penalise them in a way that forces them to change.

How long before we have GPS trackers that will flag speeding transgressions, either to the driver or direct to the police?

It's not about catching speeders though is it.

It's about stopping people from speeding.

That's what they tell us anyway.

Part of stopping them is a realistic chance of being caught. So catching some speeders deters them and others.

A workmate of mine was a terrible driver. On the phone, speeding, tailgating. Getting 6 pts in a fortnight cured her.

Another workmate was caught on his mobile last week. Plain clothes cops watching traffic and radioing ahead to get the handheld phone drivers stopped. £100 pts and 3 pts. He'll think twice next time I hope.

I ve done 186 mph on many motorways around the country and 174 mph on the A32. Can anyone beat that or do I win the thread?

How long before we have GPS trackers that will flag speeding transgressions, either to the driver or direct to the police?

FWIW, I'm not a massive advocate of speeding, but I think there are situations where it hardly deserves the disdain that some seem to hold. If you're driving a dual carriageway at 4:30am with no other vehicles other than the odd 16-wheeler every 20 miles or so (which I do, semi-regularly) then 80-90mph isn't going to harm anyone. Conversely, the number of f***tards I've seen travelling on the same road at NSL whilst there's a snowstorm and 1" cover is frightening. You could maybe understand the (massively flawed) thought processes going on behind the steering wheel if they were in Land Rovers or G-Class Mercs or something, but I'm talking Audi TTs, Citroen Unipart vans, etc. Mentallists, the lot of them, and demonstrably more dangerous on the road than me and my 4am 90mph by an order of magnitude, whilst not a single one exceeding the speed limit. It's about how appropriate your speed is, not a blind adherence to the limit.

FWIW mk2 - I was also told that I would likely fail my Direct Access bike test if I did not travel at or close to the posted speed limits without good reason. Again, by an ex-police biker turned instructor.

I ve done 186 mph on many motorways around the country and 174 mph on the A32. Can anyone beat that or do I win the thread?

Beats me I couldnt top more than 150ish on a rural back road on my bike

But you can't cover the country

Matter of time.

If you're driving a dual carriageway at 4:30am with no other vehicles other than the odd 16-wheeler every 20 miles or so (which I do, semi-regularly) then 80-90mph isn't going to harm anyone.

Tell that to the family of the young lad that died on a dual carriageway at that sort of time after being hit by a car on new years day morning.

You just don't know what might be on the road. Extra thinking and stopping time will always help.

singletrackmind, can't agree with you there, applying speed limits seems to have no consistency whatsoever - why has West Sussex got a pretty much blanket 40mph on country 'b' roads. Why do you go from a 50 in Oxfordshire to a 'national' in Bucks. Why is it OK to do 40 down heavily populated dual carriageways in London but only 30 in some so-called 'village' consisting of some arbitrary number of dwellings within a certain distance in Oxfordshire. I could go on and on citing examples - if there was any kind of logic behind it people may find the limits more intuitive and easier to stick to and have to spend less time watching their speedo and more time actually concentrating on their driving.
Most of the 'scameras' are about raising revenue not improving road safety.

Billytinkle.

What was he doing on there? I imagine it was dark.

Had he been drinking?

Tragically on well lit wide motorways you get youths involved/killed. Should we all drive at 30 at night just incase?

I'll do c60 if its dry tam

Why would you drive at 30 in a 70mph limit? All I'm saying is don't drive in excess of 70.

I don't know why the kid was there and that's really not the point. Expect the unexpected is.

If theres no such thing as driver frustration cheeky boy then why do we need to overtake?

Where did I say there was no such thing as driver frustration ???

I was just using what I consider a less of an apologist description of a syndrome that is often used to justify arrogant bellend polishers endangering other people.