[Closed] Speeding advice - any experts about?

Any thoughts?

Turn up with both bits and ask is it 34 or 35? The magistrate/sherif/judge will love the ambiguity.

...Didn't hear anything so thought maybe they'd dropped it...

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So.... you broke the speed limit, got caught, and you're trying to get away with it.

Awesome. Way'da be a good citizen.

Kettle on, biscuits all round.

before all hell brakes out, this is what you are looking for

Turn up with both bits and ask is it 34 or 35? The magistrate/sherif/judge will love the ambiguity

I'd ignore this new letter too. By ignoring the speed awareness course one you didn't go on the course. If you don't reply they'll surely conlude it's way too much bother to keep writing and drop the whole thing.

Red Bush tea please Pigface (look, I'm in the South ok?)

1. you shouldn't have 'forgotten' about it - it was never going to go away once they have advised you of the NIP.
2. you've been summoned so theres not a lot point worrying about what could have been - you are going to court.
3. as above - take both bits of paper, admit the charge of speeding (you've not said you didn't speed) but only the 34 and see what comes.

I'm all for sticking to speed limits to be honest, especially 30s, but I'm also for public bodies doing it correctly - I get slated if I make a mistake at work and it affects a client - don't see why the public bodies shouldn't be held to account for cockups. if that means you have a defense to get off (was it 35 or 34 or god forbid that they made more than one mistake 29?) then thats their tough.

[i]Speeding advice[/i]

Don't.

Is my non-expert advice.

I have custard creams today. The Brompton of the biscuit world.

I got a NIP in January for exceeding 30 in late December, it was a fair cop, I got the offer of the course and took it, very glad I did actually, and not just because it kept the points off my licence but it did make me think about how I judge speed and road conditions, challenged a few bad habits I had developed, generally I've slowed down lots and consider things a bit more as a result... I think everyone should go on a speed awareness course after say 10 years of driving irrespective of any offences, just as a refresher. but that's just me.

It wasn't hard to find a course and get booked on, there were loads of dates and locations to choose from.
IIRC they gave you something like two months just to book it, and you could take it anything up to six months in the future I think(???), the [i]"Couldn't find a slot"[/i] excuse is going to look really weak in court, and I'm sure they'll be dead sympathetic when you turn up to quibble about a rounding error on a letter. you'd have been offered the course at 34 or 35mph, so what's the point?

Hope you enjoy your day in court, your fine and your six points...

The Brompton of the biscuit world

Folds up small and easy to wheel around?

[i]Folds up small and easy to wheel around? [/i]

Pointless unless you need to travel by train in the rush hour?

So.... you broke the speed limit, got caught, and you're trying to get away with it.

Awesome. Way'da be a good citizen.

Have a word with yourself.

OP, go to court, explain your (to be frank, somewhat half-hearted) efforts to do the course (don't bullshit them, they can check) and they may, for 35/30, give you the same as a fixed penalty would have been.

Pointless unless you need to travel by train in the rush hour?

Or maybe an overpriced urban biscuit, with no practical use outside of built up areas with extensive public transport networks?

To be fair I haven't had one (custard cream) since I stopped working in London (never had a Brompton)

fancy losing the opportunity to do a speed awareness course! I got caught doing 100.00mph and was offered one, I booked the next available course there and then.

Would home made ginger fairings be OK?

With Yorkshire tea of course.

From memory both 34 and 35 are bigger numbers than 30 so I'm sure the magistrate or DJ will give the ambiguity about 30 seconds consideration before asking "well do you admit speeding or not?" if yes then 3 points and a fine and costs and victim surcharge if no then off for trial your word vs police see if you can make the court believe you might have been going under 30mph if not then 3 points a slightly bigger fine and a much bigger costs order and the victim surcharge .

+ 1 on the awareness course being useful. My biggest takeaway tip from it was to not change up from 4th to 5th or even 6th when in a 30 limit, as the gearing in modern cars encourages the driver to subconsciously be at a higher speed that 30mph if in 5th or 6th.

Ooooo, cup of coffee for me, no biscuits but white chocolate and ginger rocky road if you want some 🙂

Rich Tea for me please, I brought a few pitchforks and torches, just in case.

The Brompton of the biscuit world.

I'm sure the magistrate or DJ will give the ambiguity about 30 seconds consideration before asking "well do you admit speeding or not?"

The fact that you've been quoted two different speeds would through doubt over which was accurate; a good lawyer would probably get that thrown out. But based purely on your OP I'd hazard you wouldn't be arsed to find one, so I'd suggest bracing yourself for a large fine.

+ 1 on the awareness course being useful.

-1 here, but we've discussed this at length previously.

My biggest takeaway tip from it was to not change up from 4th to 5th or even 6th when in a 30 limit, as the gearing in modern cars encourages the driver to subconsciously be at a higher speed that 30mph if in 5th or 6th.

Kill the environment, not a child.

That sounds like toot to me anyway, surely it's easier to speed accidentally in a gear that's still in its optimum power band? They teach you to drive at 30 in 4th gear rather than 3rd in driving lessons to keep revs low. I can't imagine you'd do a lot of speeding if you drove around at an indicated 30mph in 6th gear. With your foot to the boards you might get to 31mph in about a week, if it hadn't stalled first. I'll try it on the way home FOR SCIENCE.

Best way of not speeding inadvertently, of course, is to pay bloody attention to what you're doing. I reckon I could cruise at 30 or 40 pretty accurately without looking at the speedo.

35? That's the gas chamber for you.

WINNER
"fancy losing the opportunity to do a speed awareness course! I got caught doing 100.00mph and was offered one, I booked the next available course there and then"

Now thats a result.

matt_outandabout - Member
The Brompton of the biscuit world.

I was thinking more of I don't get them, but they are every bl**dy where.

And you know some ****er is writing a blog about how awesome they are right now

The fact that you've been quoted two different speeds would throw doubt over which was accurate; a good lawyer would probably get that thrown out.

Unlikely.
I've seen lots of "little mistakes" in evidence and they'll just right them in court (differences in speed, wrong location et cetera).

Plead guilty, plead early.

I have custard creams today. The Brompton of the biscuit world.

The most appropriate attire when sitting on one is a suit?

Tried to book and there was nothing left.

If only there was another option listed instead of the course! 🙂

Seriously though, don't say any of the excuses and stuff you said in your OP when you get to court, just admit you messed up and take what's coming.

You really don't have any other options I don't think.

Cougar I recon I am quite a good lawyer I am reasonably confident that having been quoted two speeds that are not vastly different and both over the limit will avail the op nothing if the case goes to trial . May be worth a punt if you have money to burn but given the most likely explanation is the speed was 34.something and has been rounded up in one document and down in another the court is still going to be sure that the speed exceeded 30 mph.

My biggest takeaway tip from it was to not change up from 4th to 5th or even 6th when in a 30 limit,

They teach you to drive at 30 in 4th gear rather than 3rd in driving lessons to keep revs low. I can't imagine you'd do a lot of speeding if you drove around at an indicated 30mph in 6th gear. With your foot to the boards you might get to 31mph in about a week, if it hadn't stalled first. I'll try it on the way home FOR SCIENCE.

At the other end I hit the rev limit at about an indicated 33mph in 1st, so I'm guessing 30ish real. Plus it has the added safety feature that other people are more aware of your presence than normal.

Your all missing a trick here.
If you attend a course tea and biscuits are provided. And you learn new skills.

Edit and there is always one fool who thinks he knows the highway code in more detail than the corse instructor.

Does the course instructor ride a Brompton?

any experts about?

You're not from round these parts are you?

Alway makes me chuckle the amount of people who don't drive who reply to these sort of things.

I can't imagine you'd do a lot of speeding if you drove around at an indicated 30mph in 6th gear. With your foot to the boards you might get to 31mph in about a week, if it hadn't stalled first. I'll try it on the way home FOR SCIENCE.

Just tried this. In 6th, putting the accelerator to the floor (past the kickdown) results in precisely nothing happening. It's turning over so slowly that it's on the edge of 'lumpy' like if you brake and don't dip the clutch. In 5th it does pull away, slowly; took about ten seconds give or take to get up to 40, that's in a 1.9L turbo diesel.

Cougar I recon I am quite a good lawyer I am reasonably confident that having been quoted two speeds that are not vastly different and both over the limit will avail the op nothing if the case goes to trial

Fair enough, I sit corrected.

and there is always one fool who thinks he knows the highway code in more detail than the corse instructor.

Well, it's hard to know more of THC than "all of it." I'd wager I knew as much as the instructor, aside from stuff that's irrelevant to me like rules relating to caravans (I'd look it up first if I ever had to tow one).

34,35, what's the difference. We talk about wanting a bit of common sense in policing, why can't we have common sense when we get caught instead of trying to wriggle on technicalities.

As for "missing the point, you might learn something by doing a course"

Erm, you've kind of missed the point. He was offered a course but by being too disorganised to book one in 2 months, he's had that option removed now.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm not trying to wriggle out of anything but, tbh and imo, a policeman would most certainly not have bothered to pull me over given the road, speed and conditions. 34 or 35 - what's the difference? Well, 1 is within the tolerance that the ACPO advise and 1 is not. That's a pretty significant difference I think.

Thanks again.

Miles

The thing with guidelines is, they're guidelines. You could hypothetically be prosecuted for doing 31mph in a 30.

Whether or not you were caught at a speed within ACPO guidelines or not is irrelevant once you've received the NIP, the judge isn't going to take "well, the police would normally have let me off so I thought it was ok" as a defence.

As already said the ACPO guidance is just that. It also varies from force to force as well as to where they enforce speed limits, awareness courses, fines etc.

(oh and for the pedants ACPO no longer exists either!)

Really? Gosh.

[quote=iainc ]+ 1 on the awareness course being useful. My biggest takeaway tip from it was to not change up from 4th to 5th or even 6th when in a 30 limit, as the gearing in modern cars encourages the driver to subconsciously be at a higher speed that 30mph if in 5th or 6th.

I'm wishing I'd gone on one now.

Kill the environment, not a child.

That sounds like toot to me anyway, surely it's easier to speed accidentally in a gear that's still in its optimum power band? They teach you to drive at 30 in 4th gear rather than 3rd in driving lessons to keep revs low. I can't imagine you'd do a lot of speeding if you drove around at an indicated 30mph in 6th gear. With your foot to the boards you might get to 31mph in about a week, if it hadn't stalled first. I'll try it on the way home FOR SCIENCE.

Looks like you're maybe missing the point. Firstly, it was the recommendation of the course trainer, who presumably knows what he is talking about. Secondly, the idea, as he explained it, is that at 30mph most cars in 4th will feel 'about right' whereas if put into 5th or 6th the normal behaviour will be to accelerate up to 1500rpm or whatever feels 'about right' and then be speeding.

Maybe I didn't explain it properly in the first place though.

Just tried this. In 6th, putting the accelerator to the floor (past the kickdown) results in precisely nothing

Auto presumably?

it was the recommendation of the course trainer, who presumably knows what he is talking about

That is some assumption.

The trainer on my course was adamant that stomping on the brakes and invoking the ABS was the quickest way to stop a car. He might know THC, but physics was obviously not his strong point.

^^^ how do you stop a modern car more quickly than braking hard and invoking abs ? Assuming not icy etc ?

Threshold braking. Admittedly arder to achieve in poor traction conditions. But the point is threshold braking is the quickest. The big advantages of ABS is it's quicker than locked braking and allows steering control. When the ABS releases it's not braking, so the car is only actually braking some of the time, hence threshold being quicker.

If you attend a course tea and biscuits are provided. And you learn new skills.

What biscuits ? Clearly this is fundamental

Whilst threshold braking is indeed the fastest way to stop, the instructor was probably correct in saying that as 99% of the people attending the course would more than likely just plough into the back of the car in front if they had to stop in an emergency and tried threshold braking. Whilst it isn't the most hallenging technique in the world, to truly stop quicker than a modern ABS unit on a car with decent tyres, you have to get it absolutely perfect and in a real emergency, with no prior training, that just isn't going to happen. Modern car; just stamp on the middle pedal and let it sort itself out. Ditto with stability control etc. unless you are a driving God (well, this is STW....) then 999/1000 the car will stop better than you can. And in pretty much any condition. And with steering control.

The instructors position was that it wasn't possible to stop quicker, not that it was difficult but that it wasn't possible.

Update .. the biscuits are the posh 2 in a packet ones more Marriott hotel than travel lodge.
Sorry for the late reply, I've been building a engine to make my van faster.

^^This!!

They were chocolate chip cookies. And big. I had 4. 😀

Looks like you're maybe missing the point. Firstly, it was the recommendation of the course trainer, who presumably knows what he is talking about. Secondly, the idea, as he explained it, is that at 30mph most cars in 4th will feel 'about right' whereas if put into 5th or 6th the normal behaviour will be to accelerate up to 1500rpm or whatever feels 'about right' and then be speeding.

Auto presumably?

how do you stop a modern car more quickly than braking hard and invoking abs ?

Sanctimonious **** world. You've got evidence you weren't doing 35. Enjoy your day in court.

I *thought* that I was told to stay in 3rd in a 30 zone when I did my speed awareness course.
Not much use now I drive an auto most of the time.

There is me thinking the quickest way to stop a car is to run into something big and solid.......

Physics is obviously not my strong point...

Then why do you mention kickdown?

Cos it has one, though of course it's not actually a kickdown functionally, just that's what it feels like and it was easier to describe using a word rather than the paragraph I'm now having to type (though it's a fair question). I think perhaps it's an eco thing, to dissuade you from the loud pedal? Don't ask me, I didn't design the bloody thing.

I'm not trying to wriggle out of anything but, tbh and imo, a policeman would most certainly not have bothered to pull me over given the road, speed and conditions

lol, just for the speeding then...

BigJohn - Member
Sanctimonious **** world. You've got evidence you weren't doing 35. Enjoy your day in court.

It could easily be that in the offer of the awareness course standard practice is to round down the speed to the nearest integer number (hypothetically then anything up to 34.9 reads 34) then to round to the nearest integer for the prosecuted speed. As with anything measured properly there will be a tolerance, so long as that covers 34 & 35 I'd expect 10-15 with a couple of hard cases and free soap in the showers.

Cos it has one, though of course it's not actually a kickdown functionally, just that's what it feels like and it was easier to describe using a word rather than the paragraph I'm now having to type (though it's a fair question). I think perhaps it's an eco thing, to dissuade you from the loud pedal? Don't ask me, I didn't design the bloody thing.

Do you have a speed limiter function? On some cars with that you can override it by doing the equivalent of a kick down.

you needed a course to tell you not to use 5th or 6th gear at 30 ?

worse - someone else then went out and tried it ......

do you all hate your cars THAT much ? or are you all minicab drivers ?

Looks like you're maybe missing the point. Firstly, it was the recommendation of the course trainer, who presumably knows what he is talking about. Secondly, the idea, as he explained it, is that at 30mph most cars in 4th will feel 'about right' whereas if put into 5th or 6th the normal behaviour will be to accelerate up to 1500rpm or whatever feels 'about right' and then be speeding.

Which, as I demonstrated, is patently bobbins. At 30mph in 6th you'll not get it up to 1500rpm without written permission and two days' notice

err, we're actually saying the same thing here ! People instinctively change up through the gears to 5th or 6th after pulling away. If they do this in a 30 limit they are more likely to be sitting subconsciously at around 35-40 mph in 5th, whereas if they were conditioned to leave it in 4th, for the same 'normal engine revs' thy'd be doing 30 mph.

This was the point the awareness instructor was making. I;'m sure they are trained in technique and are not pitching to the driving elite of STW, who actually know how to stop a car without jumping on the brakes, despite that being taught to many of us by our driving instructors (accepting most cars have ABS)

how do you stop a modern car more quickly than braking hard and invoking abs ?

By being able to drive.

🙄

who actually know how to stop a car without [s]jumping on[/s] locking the brakes, as taught to many of us by our driving instructors

FTFY

^^ fair point on the 'locking', hence my original ref to ABS and subsequent edit 🙂

🙂

Just received a NIP. Driving back from France, 1.57am - 60 in a 50 on the M6. £100 fine. I was a cock. Suck it up buttercup.

I don't think it's a bad thing to get a speeding ticket once in a while. But it does irk when you are the only person on the road in the middle of the night.

Speeding advice

Don't.

Is my non-expert advice.

Typical STW response! He asked for on speeding, not not sppeding.

my expert advice is to push really hard on all the pedals util you find the one that makes you go faster. Then keep pushing har on that one and stop pushing on all the others, the important thing is to make sure you are in an area where you are not allowed to go as fast as you are going.

All this talk of 34/35 is missing the point.As far as I am aware you can be prosecuted for doing less than 30(any speed deemed inappropriate for the conditions) in a 30 zone as I am sure our STW Highway code and legal experts can confirm. This is something that they would probably teach you on a speed awaerness course.
I consider myself an STW driving god because my driving instructor once told me I had some of the best clutch control he had ever seen.He did go on to say that next time I should try putting the car in 1st rather than 3rd gear when pulling away at junctions 😳

Enjoy your day in court.

Nah, you don't even have to turn up nowadays. Just send your plea by post.

If the traffic allows, I use cruise to regulate the speed in 30/40/50 zones with my right foot covering the brake. It has become almost automatic as I have been doing this for 20+ years. Obviously It is not safe if there is lots of traffic, but in those conditions often the speed is below the limit anyway.

In 32 years driving I have yet to receive a speeding fine or other traffic conviction. I do find quite a few other drivers seem annoyed that I keep close to speed limits, when doing 42 in a 40 zone for example, but I just let them get on with it.

Edit: I am anal enought to check the speedo of each new car with a hand held GPS used by my passenger on a clear bit of road so I know the speed variation at 30/40/50, although of course this does change as tyres wear, but it gives some idea of true speed vs speedo. My current car is a pretty consistent +2 mph.

You received a NIP for 34 and then a summons for 35. I'd go and defend yourself and ask what the guidelines are (do some research on that force/their own guidelines/ring them up if need be to clarify). Then ask why the change of speed recorded between the two and subtly question validity and accuracy.

34mph would have shown a speedo of circa 37mph? What were the conditions like? Go in fair, honest and open.

No one is a saint when it comes to speed. Its using your common sense to the conditions and not being EXCESSIVE.

There are many crimes out there that need focusing on- excessive speed is one. 34mph isnt that IMO.

I got done for doing 34 in a 30.

On the course there was a bloke who'd been done for doing 33 in a 30. The course trainer didn't believe him, but he had copies of all the original documentation to show him.

Cougar - Moderator

That sounds like toot to me anyway, surely it's easier to speed accidentally in a gear that's still in its optimum power band? They teach you to drive at 30 in 4th gear rather than 3rd in driving lessons to keep revs low. I can't imagine you'd do a lot of speeding if you drove around at an indicated 30mph in 6th gear. With your foot to the boards you might get to 31mph in about a week, if it hadn't stalled first. I'll try it on the way home FOR SCIENCE

I was never taught to drive in a certain gear at a certain speed; you drive in the correct gear for the road conditions.

I think the point of all of this (which IainC I think, alluded to above) is that if you are in a 30mph limit and change too early to 4th/5th/6th the car will feel laboured, perhaps vibrate & rattle (mine does) and not pull at all. People generally will accelerate a bit to the point where the engine is 'happier' rather than change back to a more suitable gear.
In my car - 1.9TDi with 130bhp in a small car, 4th at 30mph doesn't feel right. I tend to leave it in 3rd on most occasions. In 4th, the engine is revving too low & feels juddery which makes the cabin a bit rattly (this is in a 12yr old Seat - you probably don't get the same rattles in a 6 month old BMW, or whatever). In 4th I tend to creep to around 35mph, which I don't do if I leave it in 3rd.
Leaving it in 3rd gear also means you can regulate your speed more easily & react to situations around you (someone pulling out of a junction ahead, for example) by just lifting off the throttle rather than having to apply the brake.

My wife's car is more powerful & quicker than mine (2 litre TDi with 140bhp in an Ibiza) but it also doesn't feel happy in 4th at 30.

hora - Member
You received a NIP for 34 and then a summons for 35. I'd go and defend yourself and ask what the guidelines are (do some research on that force/their own guidelines/ring them up if need be to clarify). Then ask why the change of speed recorded between the two and subtly question validity and accuracy.

There are many crimes out there that need focusing on- excessive speed is one. 34mph isnt that IMO.

34 isn't 40.

From here: if you hit someone at 30 you are 50% likely to kill them.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/killspeed.html

Saying this - you shouldn't cycle at 25mph+ should you..

Edit: I am anal enought to check the speedo of each new car with a hand held GPS used by my passenger on a clear bit of road so I know the speed variation at 30/40/50, although of course this does change as tyres wear, but it gives some idea of true speed vs speedo. My current car is a pretty [b]consistent +2 mph[/b]

Surely if you are anal enough to measure the variation, you would know that it can't be a consistent 2mph.

The variation must be a consistent % of the indicated speed.

2mph variation at 30 would be 4mph at 60.

[/pedant]

I think the point of all of this (which IainC I think, alluded to above) is that if you are in a 30mph limit and change too early to 4th/5th/6th the car will feel laboured, perhaps vibrate & rattle (mine does) and not pull at all. People generally will accelerate a bit to the point where the engine is 'happier' rather than change back to a more suitable gear.
In my car - 1.9TDi with 130bhp in a small car, 4th at 30mph doesn't feel right. I tend to leave it in 3rd on most occasions. In 4th, the engine is revving too low & feels juddery which makes the cabin a bit rattly (this is in a 12yr old Seat - you probably don't get the same rattles in a 6 month old BMW, or whatever). In 4th I tend to creep to around 35mph, which I don't do if I leave it in 3rd.
Leaving it in 3rd gear also means you can regulate your speed more easily & react to situations around you (someone pulling out of a junction ahead, for example) by just lifting off the throttle rather than having to apply the brake.

exactly, thankyou 🙂

No, actually with the past few cars I have had it is genuinely a fixed variation.
It used to be the case with cable driven speedos that the variation was a percentage ( often about 5% in the old days) but with modern cars, there is no direct link between the speedo head and the sensor. I believe the speed is taken from a variety of sensors and a variation is built in for 'safety' reasons and to allow for tyre degradation. In some cars I believe it is possible to code the speedos with an exact figure via the on board diagnostics

Before I had a GPS I used to calibrate the speedo using the markers on the side of the road that used to be there for this purpose. There was a set on the dual carriage way leading into reading from Basingstoke, just before the M4. As I said, anal. I have owned 28 cars and checked the speedos on all but the first few, so I have plenty of evidence over the years

Due to the gearing on my car 30 in 5th isn't right. To be honest if I sit at 50 on the M60 average works I'll sit in 4th gear @ 50 as the car seems 'happy' there too.