[Closed] Sometimes religion doesn't just invite ridicule, it positively begs for it

Remember rule #1 dudes-

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And that's it. There is nothing else. You are born, you live, you die. Make the most of the middle one while you can 😀

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24330830

Here's an interesting paper, I read the other day.

To be fair badnewz.... my statement was a little aggrandizing, there is certainly debate around free will within neuroscience....it's just that If I had to pick a side then I am more won over by the evidence presented against the idea of free will. I think wiki has a reasonably balanced article somewhere.

And as nice of all of these are, none of it is either a)incompatible with atheism, or b)unique to (or even directly associated with) believing in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Or indeed any other myths and legends.

You misunderstand. That was a list of unproveable things that are still worthwhile believing in.

You know what 'ineffable' means don't you?

TBH it is really pointless an atheist debating with an atheist and I have no idea why you go to such lengths to defend religion when you also agree its a load of nonesense.

Because Molgrips is possibly a social utilitarian, if it makes people happy and it causes less harm than good then I do not see the issue in allowing people to believe in what they want.

The issue is when peoples beliefs start impinging on the rights of others.

I have no idea why you go to such lengths to defend religion

I'm not defending religion, I am defending religious people. That is the point.

The issue is when peoples beliefs start impinging on the rights of others

Absolutely.

I haven't read this thread, but instead today I went to this :

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It was absolutely ****ing brilliant if somewhat surreal - the sight of bearded Muslims on bikes dressed in white like Osma bin Laden smiling and enthusiastically shaking the hand of a rabbi wearing a Kippah, or me sitting next to a Muslim woman wearing hijab and talking to her as we ate strange and mysterious Gujarati food with a small plastic spoon in a Sikh temple packed with Sikhs who were also busily consuming large amounts of food and drink, and no sight of any money anywhere.

The Sikh temple was by far the best imo, the generosity - they also provided most of the food for the free picnic afterwards, was impressive. Most of the people who turned up at the temple had no idea who these people who were clearly nonbelievers were, but they didn't bat an eyelid as they sat down to eat their food next to you (which was handy as I was pretty clueless about how to eat my food - it wasn't even on a dinner plate ffs) striking up conversations.

A day of tolerance, respect, and seeking to understand, other people's cultures and religions, a bit like this thread I'm sure I'll discover when I get round to reading it 🙂

That is sort of the point eirnie the common thread that runs through people being excellent to one and other is humanity not religion.

Religion is irrelevant to morality across groups.

andyfla - Member
If there is a true god how come there are so many and they are contradictory to each other ?

The most striking thing to me about comparative religious studies is that the constants/common themes outweigh the contradictions IMO. I find all religions fascinating and largely believe that they are different paths to achieving the same end. I dislike notions of exclusivity though.

I always wondered why Mormons are right or Shia Muslims or Hindus, etc

How about all of them (or none)? Why either/or?

The most striking thing to me about comparative religious studies is that the constants/common themes outweigh the contradictions IMO.

I find all religions fascinating and largely believe that they are different paths to achieving the same end. I dislike notions of exclusivity though.

Religion is irrelevant to morality across groups.

Tell that to a Quaker.

People's behaviour to those in and outside their groups depends largely on the culture in which they live. Religion is a part of that culture, but not neccessarily all of it. Sometimes religious ideas affect a culture profoundly (I think Lutheranism affects the Anglo world to a huge degree), and sometimes culture affects religious interpretation.

All of which is fairly obvious with only a shallow knowledge of history.

Junkyard - lazarus
Its also much harder to link in the abrahamic faiths with Eastern ones which are pantheists or Buddhism. The Buddhist "rules " [path] are nothing like the 10 commandments.

You simply cannot make that link.

No if or but.

🙂

"JulianA - Member
I think that wherever you go you should observe and respect the local customs and beliefs whether you share them or not. End of."

absolute cobblers. from Ulster to Kampuchea, local customs and beliefs have often been appalling and undeserving of observation and respect. often the right path would have been resistance and dissent. you're engaging in absurd moral relativism.

absolute cobblers. from Ulster to Kampuchea, local customs and beliefs have often been appalling and undeserving of observation and respect. often the right path would have been resistance and dissent. you're engaging in absurd moral relativism.

Pissing and running around naked on someone elses mountain isn't the same as opposing the Khmer Rouge.

Pissing and running around naked on someone elses mountain isn't the same as opposing the Khmer Rouge.

There was great support in here for the bloke who jumped in the river to disrupt the boat race, something which angered a lot of the similar "Establishment" types as people like to say. Being a jolly foreigner should he not have respected the local customs and simply tutted quietly from the back?

True but rather than having to come up with a sliding scale of whats the most important to respect it's safe to say that it can be a grey area.
There was great support in here for the bloke who jumped in the river to disrupt the boat race, something which angered a lot of the similar "Establishment" types as people like to say. Being a jolly foreigner should he not have respected the local customs and simply tutted quietly from the back?

Again, bullshit argument. Carrying out acts that cause disruption can only be justified if there is good cause for doing so, the idiotic hippies in Malaysia didn't have a decent reason for doing so. Malaysians aren't under the thumb of some theological tyranny and that mountain doesn't represent one.

Feel free to ridicule other people from your own country, don't go to theirs and expect them to treat you nicely though.

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How about all of them (or none)? Why either/or?

wwaswas - Member

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You think someone would have pointed out this was proof Satan had taken her sister to be his bride...

Unfortunately the one I went to stated that his was the only true way and everyone else was damned to hell

Agreed, I hate that and much of the formality and ritual. The Quakers probably have the most moving "meetings" IMO.

I think it makes perfect sense to pick and chose and to use regions for guidance more than anything else. Just because I don't believe all the Apostles Creed would not stop me going to a CoE church service. It's a bit like politics, a shame to feel constrained or tied to one set of lenses IMO. No harm in picking the best bits and ignoring the rest, particularly given the obvious challenges of interpreting the nuances in various collections of historical texts written in foreign languages and then translated many times!

The Quakers probably have the most moving "meetings" IMO.

> Is the existence of God proveable at all? If we postulate that it's not proveable, then we can happily believe in it without worrying about proof.

Can we do the same for Unicorns ? Cos they look so cute

Nope, sorry, Christian God killed all the unicorns:

For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

[b]And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.[/b]

For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

[url= https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+34%3A2-8&version=KJV ]Isaiah 34:2-8 KJV[/url]

Yay for peace, love and tolerance. 😯

Theologians interested in moral issues have said that if God were unhidden/obvious, human beings would of course choose the good, rather than evil or indifference.

Thats the kind of religious cobblers that can wind people up.

Interesting event Ernie, would be kind of tempted by the free food.... croydon didn't really sell it to me tho 😉

There are indeed a good many intolerant atheists on here, who, it seems to me, need to repeatedly voice their belief of their denial of a God with much mutual backslapping and hurrah's.

[i]Is the existence of God proveable at all?[/i]

Of course.

God(s) as a concept; is Inter-Subjective. (something that exists within a communications network linking the consciousness of millions of individuals) Like atheism, the rights of humans, the value of money...etc.

So, in those terms: God exists.

I really like the idea of no formal service, it's more a time of quiet reflection

Methodists are interesting as well, as its not about the building, the priest or the bible its about finding your own way to god and inner peace. The extras (bible, priest, church) are just there to help you find your way, you don't need them but if you want them they are there to help.

All the Methodists I've met have met have been pretty amazing kind people, who reminded me of the kind old people where I grew up who would take food to struggling new mums, pick up kids who had hurt themselves and make sure they got home safe and were in general good neighbours and kind people and never asked for or expected thanks.

My Methodist uncle (vicar or their equivilent) and aunt are total whackjobs though - Harry Potter is the work of the devil, people lived for 900 years before the floods, dinosaurs were put here to test our faith, Buddhists are selfish, Christianity is more forgiving than Islam.

Total loons, but they are nice though - on the outside anyway. I get the feeling that behind the smiley veneer.... if they could get away with it.... they'd start burning unbelievers.

kayla1 is totally right. Rule #1 is all you need.

[i]if they could get away with it.... they'd start burning unbelievers.[/i]

kinda goes to the heart of it doesn't it? Some people are just, y'know, a bit enthusiastic with a torch and a wicker man.

Nope, sorry, Christian God killed all the unicorns:

Total loons, but they are nice though - on the outside anyway. I get the feeling that behind the smiley veneer.... if they could get away with it.... they'd start burning unbelievers.

Do you reckon they would be as loony if they weren't Methodists? As it sounds a bit like even if they were atheists they would sit fuming over the daily mail 🙂

We have a Methodist church in the village - the only danger of any burning there is from the copious amounts of freshly brewed tea. 😀

But I do recall going to a happy-clappy inter-faith carol service one Christmas (not my idea!) and at the end we discovered that our 93 year old grandma's wheelchair had gone missing (by honest mistake).

We relayed our predicament to the resident padre and his eyes noticeably narrowed as he whispered: [i]"It'll be one of those... Methodists!"[/i]

😆

a shame to feel constrained or tied to one set of lenses IMO. No harm in picking the best bits and ignoring the rest,

The Bible is pretty clear about only having one true god and not taking others but it is what many Christians do - not a dig but it is interesting how few christians follow all the rules in the book.
New agers do this across religions though and buy into Karma and Ying and Yang for example. This is what interests me in religion we[ humans] seem to have an innate need to find reason and we postulate god[s] to explain this
There are no societies* that exist without gods as we seem to need this.

* Ok there are some politically atheist ones

"Science is about explanation. Religion is about meaning. Science analyses, religion integrates. Science breaks things down to their component parts. Religion binds people together in relationships of trust. Science tells us what is. Religion tells us what ought to be. Science describes. Religion beckons, summons, calls. Science sees objects. Religion speaks to us as subjects. Science practices detachment. Religion is the art of attachment, self to self, soul to soul. Science sees the underlying order of the physical world. Religion hears the music beneath the noise. Science is the conquest of ignorance. Religion is the redemption of solitude.”

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, who I quote above, is always interesting.

I can't help thinking that the good Rabbi is conflating Religion with Philosophy and Humanity a bit there.

same thing really, a shared set of values to make sense of the Human condition. (that isn't biology)

He would probably argue there is nothing to conflate as religion incorporates philosophy and humanity.

Science Questions
Humanity Thinks
Religion Dictates

another version of the good Rabbi

In the end it comes down to the fact that good people would be good without religion, bad the same, I really feel for those who are doing bad things because they think religion makes them all right.

same thing really,

Bringing gods into it tips the scales

In the end it comes down to the fact that good people would be good without religion, bad the same, I really feel for those who are doing bad things because they think religion makes them all right.

Do you not think that these people would find another reason to do bad things if religion didn't exist, as for some people just want money and power and will find *something* to excuse their actions.

Also I would disagree about the Religion dictates, it tries to guide you, just some people aren't good at understanding directions.

He would probably argue there is nothing to conflate as religion incorporates philosophy and humanity.

And I would suggest he is being a little disingenuous by implying that is the only way they can exist.

You could equally argue that Science incorporates philosophy and humanity too.

Some of the biggest scientific searches are to find answers to questions that are strongly philosophical (e.g. where do we come from? Are we alone? What is our universe made from? Why do we think? What is consciousness? What is time?)

I really feel for those who are doing bad things because they think religion makes them all right.

I often (okay not often, more like very occasionally) wonder about this. If you're born into and brought up by parents and community leaders who instil in you a set of values that eventually leads you to believe that your preferred deity wants you to murder yourself and a load of people who worship a different deity then what happens if you get to the afterlife and lo and behold it's the other sides deity that is standing there to greet you?

You would be dead, so I guess it would be a little late for regret. 🙂

You would hope that if you were told to kill other people to force your views on someone else your own moral compass would tell you something is wrong. It wouldn't though as there are numerous examples in our recent history where evil people have programmed ordinary everyday people to do terrible things, this has nothing to do with religion as lots of secular groups have done it in recent history (Hilter, Stalin, Khmer rouge, Chairman Mao to name a few)

You would hope that if you were told to kill other people to force your views on someone else your own moral compass would tell you something is wrong

Science Questions
Humanity Thinks
Religion Dictates

Not entirely sure that all religion dictates...?

So - how about this:

Religion is like art - you can define it however you like, and others may follow you if they like.

Religion is like art - you can define it however you like, and others may follow you if they like

I am not sure most religions are like this - I would have thought most people are bought up in a religion and are generally taught never to question it but to just believe.

When I say 'others may follow' that might mean a couple of billion people!

However I am free to start my own if I like. In this country, I am legally free to do so.

Incidentally I think people are brought up to question - but the answers are biased because people will tend to find the answers they want to find...