[Closed] Sometimes religion doesn't just invite ridicule, it positively begs for it

Not entirely sure that all religion dictates...?

Well I'd hesitate to speak for all religions but it was certainly true of my Catholic upbringing.

I am not sure most religions are like this - I would have thought most people are bought up in a religion and are generally taught never to question it but to just believe.

I don't think that's true for most religions, as its all about you figuring out the way to god, there isn't a step by step guide that guarantees success, so you have to figure it out yourself, which in turn promotes free thought. Doubt is normal part of faith.

Out of interest have you ever been to a church/mosque/temple? Or are you beliefs based on what you think happens?

Well I'd hesitate to speak for all religions but it was certainly true of my Catholic upbringing.

That might be because Catholicism is more like a business at times than a faith 🙂

The religion I've experienced* talks a lot about choice, I don't know that our vicar has ever said anything about "you must do this or else". It's part of what makes going to our local church such a pleasant experience, I couldn't say I'm a person of faith by any stretch, but a lot of the tenants of Christianity I think are great, and if more people followed them, the world would be a happier place. But I don't know if I could agree that religion dictates*.

* YMMV.

tenants of Christianity

Sorry, made me smile.

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andyfla - Member
Religion is like art - you can define it however you like, and others may follow you if they like
I am not sure most religions are like this - I would have thought most people are bought up in a religion and are generally taught never to question it but to just believe.

Which flies in the face of the notion of free will....but never mind

The Church's influence over society has waned in the UK to the extent that I hardly know anyone who is taught by rote what to believe.
Essentially the culture dominates peoples thinking, and I would argue that our culture is Positivist and based around Scientism/Scientific Rationalism, which is at root an ideology. This is why atheism is increasingly dominant.
We are simply not going to return to a theocratic society, so the posters who get so angered about religious intolerance are protesting at a straw man. Intolerance towards religion, however, is growing, and this thread largely demonstrates this. Some of the posters seem to exhibit the fury and need to control others which would have made them effective cardinals in the seventeenth-century Vatican.

The Church's influence over society has waned in the UK to the extent that I hardly know anyone who is taught by rote what to believe.

Not all versions of Christianity teach you that anyway. See Methodists above. Although the church's influence is waning, of course, but I suspect it's more the case that many churches are adapting to the congregation's diminishing appetite for strict rules and learning by rote - and have been for centuries.

I read your post Molgrips but can't work out - are you disagreeing with me or agreeing? It's not clear.

We are simply not going to return to a theocratic society, so the posters who get so angered about religious intolerance are protesting at a straw man.

are you disagreeing with me or agreeing?

Both.

You're correct that the church's influence is waning, but the church doesn't necessarily mean teaching by rote anyway, depending on the church. Teaching by rote has been diminishing for centuries as new Christian movements were founded.

(some of) the religious are still intolerant

Same as the rest of us.

Both, with historical context.

Although it can also be said, with a geographic context, that interest in christianity has been waning for some time here in North Western Europe, it's still as strong as old boots in other parts of the world, take Latin America and SE Asia for example. Boy, some of those areas really love Il Papa.

Which flies in the face of the notion of free will....but never mind

and to spend an eternity in hell for doing so.

Same as the rest of us

It was perfectly possible to choose not to believe...
and to spend an eternity in hell for doing so.

If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Hell either - happy days.

Out of interest have you ever been to a church/mosque/temple? Or are you beliefs based on what you think happens?

I think if you look back even 100 years in this country (UK) you didn't have a choice over your religion, it was something you were born into

its all about you figuring out the way to god, there isn't a step by step guide that guarantees success, so you have to figure it out yourself, which in turn promotes free thought

Yup, Catholic schools all the way through

This might be part of the reason you hold tihs point of view. I don't think Catholicism is quite like other varieties of Christianity.

If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Hell either - happy days.

This might be part of the reason you hold tihs point of view. I don't think Catholicism is quite like other varieties of Christianity.

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I (perhaps foolishly) sometimes read the comments on YouTube videos and one thing I've noticed is that as the number of comments increases so does the chances of someone posting random religious proclamations.

It must be some kind of corollary to Godwin's Law. 😆

For example, I was watching [url=

TEDx talk about a guy demonstrating his ability for very fast mental calculations[/url] (he can multiply two 5 digit numbers in his head)

Random sanctimonious "I pity you" comment:
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Or here is an interesting [url= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMByI4s-D-Y ]video from Veritasium about how the World's Roundest Object defines a kilogram[/url]. All good stuff, nothing terribly controversial.

Slightly unhinged and vaguely threatening "stop meddling" comment:
[img] [/img]

What I find fascinating about these examples is that they seem to openly criticise knowledge and understanding - as if that is now somehow ungodly.

Anti-science-ism is quite fashionable now but it has always been an issue.

Some people see science as a threat to their world view. On a more psychological level one might say that people are afraid of that which they don't understand.

What I find fascinating about these examples is that they seem to openly criticise knowledge and understanding - as if that is now somehow ungodly.

You are obviously pretty new to the internet, it is quite easy to find views that are completely out of kilter with the mainstream in the particular area.

Obvious, I suppose - if you agree with mainstream beliefs you tend not to post about it.

The earth is round, everyone, and the sky is blue!

I'm not sure ISIS would agree with you there as I don't think the Irish Nuns in the washhouses would have agreed last century.

Catholicism seems to be more about the organisation of the Church than it is about god, and as long as you pay lip service to 'God' and worship the church you are fine to do whatever you want.

The earth is round, everyone, and the sky is blue!

Pfft... the earth is an oblate spheroid and the sky isn't [i]really[/i] blue either:

😉

You are obviously pretty new to the internet,

Dude, I was on the internet when her friends called her Janet.

it is quite easy to find views that are completely out of kilter with the mainstream in the particular area.

Well yeah, but lots of monks, theologians etc in the past did plenty of good work advancing understanding of maths and physics. It wasn't ungodly then (as long as you didn't pick anything too contentious) so why is it becoming so now? Is it just a direct backlash again science for explaining away the "magic"?

If you can ignore the occasional (and perhaps inevitable) descent into name-calling, I always find this subject/debate fascinating. I'm an atheist, but would probably describe myself as an agnostic one. I definitely don't believe in any organised religion*, and while the various "God did it" explanations are all riddled with holes, I don't totally discount there being an all-powerful being (of sorts). I would, however, require proof of existence before believing it exists, which kind of defeats the point. I guess it's more a case of me thinking that there's an almost infinitely small chance that there's some alien being out there who perhaps caused the big bang, or sparked life on earth billions of years ago. Maybe. If it's true, I have faith 8) that science will find the answer :D. I clearly read too much Erich von Daniken as a kid...

Some questions that I've always wondered about:

1) What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult? I.e., without having received religious instruction as a child. I'd bet it's not many. I suspect that it's surprisingly difficult to get a free-thinking adult with a moderate education to believe in god. Whereas if you take a child and tell them they are religious, it'll become part of their lives without them even realising it. It'll be hard to ever find out, as very few people will have grown up without being exposed to religion.

2) What would be the benefit to the world, of me becoming religious? If I found god (of any denomination) today, how would the world benefit? I've given it a lot of thought over the years, and have drawn a blank. The reverse also applies, if all believers somehow just stopped believing in god and all the rituals that go with it, and carried on their normal lives, would the world be any worse off? Apart from the collapse of any businesses that rely on religion, I think not. The follow-up to that is "well, what's the point of religion then?".

3) The real version of the previous question is "what's in it for me? How would/could believing in god benefit me personally?" And again, I've drawn a blank. I can't think of a situation, no matter how dire, where believing in god would be beneficial.

*I'd go as far as to say they are complete sloblock

The follow-up to that is "well, what's the point of religion then?"

Of course neither of these are an argument for [i]organised religions[/i] these are perfectly possible without, there's plenty of folk who help out neighbours without a deity telling them to.

1) What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult? I.e., without having received religious instruction as a child. I'd bet it's not many

If you asked how many Teenagers change there mind, I doubt its many as they already know 'everything' so God has no place in a world where you know all the answers.

2) What would be the benefit to the world, of me becoming religious? If I found god (of any denomination) today, how would the world benefit? I've given it a lot of thought over the years, and have drawn a blank. The reverse also applies, if all believers somehow just stopped believing in god and all the rituals that go with it, and carried on their normal lives, would the world be any worse off?

Could be wrong though.

3) The real version of the previous question is "what's in it for me? How would/could believing in god benefit me personally?" And again, I've drawn a blank. I can't think of a situation, no matter how dire, where believing in god would be beneficial.

What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult? I.e., without having received religious instruction as a child. I'd bet it's not many. I suspect that it's surprisingly difficult to get a free-thinking adult with a moderate education to believe in god.

I don't think it'd be hard to find them believing in some "greater force", but not perhaps organised religion. Although even there don't underestimate the desire to belong.

That reads, "me", "me", "me" which might be why you don't get religion. IMHO its about making peace with the fact that "me" isn't the most important thing in the world.

I guess it's more a response to those who claim religion is a positive force in the world. I'm just an average bloke, and I can't see how being religious would make me a better person. And since most people are also average Joes, the same applies. There's no moral value inherent in religious teachings that isn't also equally present in a secular lifestyle (both good and bad). As for religious charities being bigger than atheistic ones, a larger proportion of the population is religious, and so you'd expect religious charities to be bigger.

What would be the benefit to the world, of me becoming religious?

Not a lot really - better you spent that religion time working for a charity.

WillH

1) Church going upbringing so not relevant to me.
2) Actually help with some charity work - lunches for the homeless, food bank, and the Church itself - rather than just think about it. If you are a bit lazy as many of us are, you are more likely to get involved when someone who does it suggests it to you.
3) Ignoring the spiritual side, I play cricket again and my social circle is much wider than before.

And again, I've drawn a blank. I can't think of a situation, no matter how dire, where believing in god would be beneficial.

Some people would argue that both of those groups were/are running businesses and using religion to help raise funds and increase personal power.

Sometimes religion doesn't just invite ridicule, it positively begs for it

What proportion of religious folk have found religion after becoming an adult?

I suspect quite a few. When you're young, you're full of yourself - as people get older they often start to wonder what the point of it all is. Hence mid-life existential crises. Religion offers answers that some people find appealing. I think probably some people realise they don't actually give a shit how the universe was created, they'd rather simply feel loved instead, and belong to something. Religion can offer this.

How would/could believing in god benefit me personally?

That's like saying 'why should I watch Game of Thrones?' If it appeals to you, then watch it, you might enjoy it. If it doesn't appeal, you probably won't like it. If you're looking for a series to get into then you could give it a try if you like fantasty stuff. However if you don't like it there's really no point in watching it - and with TV, people accept this (mostly!).

Cheers for the responses.

Mefty, you may have helped me answer one of the questions - I suspect the difference between 'being religious' and 'going to church' (or belonging to the social group associated with that religion) is the key. If I somehow went to sleep tonight and woke up tomorrow believing in a god, I probably wouldn't actually go to the relevant church/temple at all. I'm not really into social gatherings (I am, in my darling wife's words, a social retard). So peer pressure to do the right thing probably wouldn't be much of an issue. But then again the peer pressure argument is equally valid for secular groups who do charity work. If you're religious and the sort of person who feels compelled to help the needy, and if tomorrow it was proved beyond contest that there is no god, that a god - any god - could not possibly exist, you'd still do good stuff just because it's the right thing to do. I struggle with the idea that religion somehow encourages more charitable work. Peer pressure through social groups, yes. But specifically because that social group is religious? I'm not convinced.

I struggle with the idea that religion somehow encourages more charitable work.

I think some do - I think Islam (the one that we've already derided on this thread for being prescriptive and indoctrinating) requires you to do charitable work - it's one of it's fundamental Tennents aka five pillars of Islam.

Well yeah, but lots of monks, theologians etc in the past did plenty of good work advancing understanding of maths and physics

[url= http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/I_Was_an_Atheist_in_a_Foxhole ]andyfla...[/url]

Molgrips... maybe I'm not old enough to have had an existential crisis yet. I do often lie on the lawn at night and stare at the stars and wonder what the hell it's all about (life, that is). But in a distinctly curious/awed-by-the-pale-blue-dot sort of way, rather than feeling like I don't belong. It's positively life-affirming.

As for getting old and lonely and wanting to feel loved, to belong - I can understand getting that from being part of a social group (perhaps a church) but not from just suddenly believing in a god which only exists if you believe in it. Maybe for many the church is the only social group available?

(1) There is no shortage of social retards in church congregations.
(2) I have never felt compelled to help the needy, but I ended up doing more because of my sporadic attendance at church, not through peer pressure really. Someone just asked us if we could manage to cook a dessert and we did, since then we helped out more and more. I don't think the church has a monopoly on doing good by any means, but what it does have is incredible reach into the community at all levels which makes it very accessible and potentially very effective.

You can get naked anywhere you want in the UK either as that ex army guy knows, hes spent most of the last 8 years in jail.

<pedant>

I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but he's a former Royal Marine.

</pedant>

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

As Reverend William T. Cummings said "There are no atheists in foxholes"

I hate to upset the rev, but even if a person is screaming for "god's" help because he/she is in a foxhole and scared he/she might be killed, that's just a cultural reflex. Doesn't prove the existence of said sky fairy.

Nul Point.

maybe I'm not old enough to have had an existential crisis yet

I didn't say you were going to have one. Not everyone needs a meaning in life. If the question is "What's it all about?" my answer is "that's up to you"