[Closed] socialism vs capitalism......

Ernie- please read your last post. Where do I mention socialism?

Ernie - That is from a totally different post answering a totally different question and a direct quote from Churchill.

That is from a totally different post answering a totally different question and a direct quote from Churchill.

One that you quoted, and suggested strongly you agreed with...

I also agreed with a minimum wage, so by that logic does that now mean I'm a socialist

I also agreed with a minimum wage, so by that logic does that now mean I'm a socialist

I suppose that depends on what minimum wage you think is apt.

No, the Channel Islands have finance ministers.

We do. I know one of them. He considers himself a socialist!

mavisto - so this :

[i]"I aslo think the compulsory wearing of seatbelts is an infringement of human rights. I should have the choice of going through the windscreen if I want to."[/i]

Was an example of 'non-socialist' government interference, was it ?

So why the long quote from Churchill about "a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom" and you saying you agreed with it because you were 'totally sick of major government intervention in everything you do'. ?

Eh ? ........... you really need to make yourself clearer mate.

Greed seems righteous until [b]you[/b] fall on hard times. I don't think "capitalist ideals" means "personal greed". We need entrepreneurs and innovators to create wealth, but not greedy ones.

I feel a duty to protect those weaker than me and invest in a collective future, with all those share that sense of commitment. [i]Those that lack this commitment, regardless of their wealth or poverty, are spongers of one sort or another IMO.[/i]

For example: those that refuse to work when they could; those that emigrate to avoid sharing some of their wealth; or blatantly cheat expenses paid for by my financial sacrifice.

A bit more on-topic this time...

There are inherent inefficiency in both top-down (more socialist) and bottom-up (mor capitalist) approaches to managing a country.

Look at large corporations to see how top-down management can dominate by bringing it's collective resources to bear. But these large corporations typically stifle or ignore innovation from within because those in the apparatchik cannot grasp its value. Small firms exist only by their innovation and respond rapidly, but are easily overwhelmed by mishaps. As companies grow they naturally become more centrally managed but the clever ones devolve authority better. So there is a tension between these forces.

I'd say I distrust governments that instinctively centralise authority.

i'd be happier if there was more equality around.

i don't like extravagant shows of wealth. i don't think money makes us happier. it just allows us to buy more to compensate for the potential of our true happiness.

i would rather live in a benevolent state. one that carries more emphasis on the mental wealth of its population as opposed to material wealth.

should people be allowed to earn, unchecked amounts of money? so much money that there isn't a chance in hell that they'll ever be able to spend more than 10% in their lifetime were they to live a modest life.

is it fair that there are people who work 40+ hours a week and still struggle to get by because they are paid a pittance wage?

isn't the hospital cleaner or the home-help carer of more value to society than the footballer or TV presenter? why shouldn't the carpenter or brick layer get paid the same as the bureaucratic pen pusher or the insurance broker?

i'd be happy to live in a system that allocates each job a worth to society and each gets paid accordingly.

but i also want the freedom to do what i want (within reason).

how easy is it to take over a government or set up a political party?

i'd be happy to live in a system that allocates each job a worth to society and each gets paid accordingly.

sounds so simple.
Cant think why it's never been done before...

"i'd be happy to live in a system that allocates each job a worth to society and each gets paid accordingly."

sounds so simple.
Cant think why it's never been done before...

What, you don't think that's how it works now ?

You don't think people are being paid according to 'their worth to society' ?

I have to say Stoner, this [i]does[/i] come as a bit of a surprise to me.

So when was it exactly, that you lost all faith in the credibility of the free-market.
It must have come as something of a shock to you 😐

the free market doesnt set prices based on worth to society.

If it did we wouldnt need central government now, would we.

The freemarket in labour (when not being screwed with by the unions, natch) sets wage levels according to the supply and demand for skills, experience and relationships. Not the same thing.

To reflect worth would require a certain amount of qualitative comparison. And that would be inherently arbitrary and biased unless done by a massive committee...

the free market doesnt set prices based on worth to society.

And there was me thinking that investment advisers/economists/accountants received enormous salaries because the were of enormous value to society.

When in fact, they could be totally worthless to society.

So when the Tories say that top company directors, bankers, etc deserve their huge salaries because they are of great worth to society, they are in fact, talking complete bollox.

The real reason according to you, is simply because they can "get away with it"

Thank you for that important lesson Stoner ...... I might bookmark it for future reference 8)

When in fact, they could be totally worthless to society.

So when the Tories say that top company directors, bankers, etc deserve their huge salaries because they are of great worth to society, they are in fact, talking complete bollox.

The real reason according to you, is simply because they can "get away with it"

Yes.

Thank you for that confirmation Stoner.

And I, can confirm that it has been bookmarked for future reference ............. I know that your endorsement will carry much weight 8)

They are using a conservative measure of "worth to society" based on the amount of wealth they create for themselves that might hypothetically trickle down to benefit everyone else, aren't they? 😉

no-one will believe you though.

We're like the magic circle...mustn't let the cat out of the bag you know.
😉

....

To be a little fairer to what Im saying, I dont believe salaries are remotely connected to societal worth in any meaningful way - not even public sector ones (anyone fancy making acomparative analysis between the worth of a policeman and a nurse and a fireman and a bin man etc etc). And Ive always said that many markets cant deliver societal benefit though free market movement (I repeat Im not a wholly free-market advocate and never have been, I thought you'd remembered that). Mainly because as a society we dont put the correct price on things through either ignorance, inertia, selfishness, or missing information/economic links (pollution).

Wages are, and should be set by the market.

The ultimate control and regulator of wages is when people refuse to do a job for the wage offered, a prime example here would be firefighters, yes, they do a valuable and important job, however there's still lots of applicants for every vacancy, ergo they are being offered enough money, if they were paid less, would people still do the job? thats the test of value to society and value to economy

Shovelling shit? well, if the pay is too low, people wont do it will they, they'll take less unpleasant jobs for the same money. simples!

Oh silly me, I forgot Stoner................ since we both agree that the real reason is because they can "get away with it" Will you agree with me that perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to "get away with it" ?

.

.............I can see that we might be building powerful coalitions here 8)

however there's still lots of applicants for every vacancy, ergo they are being offered enough money

Except that maybe some people are motivated by things other than money. Like doing a job that actually helps people.

thats the test of value to society

No.

Jobs and a free market.

Try Nursing. No free market exists because the rates of pay are directly and indirectly set by quangos. there is a significant shortage of nurses. However wages cannot rise to encourage more applicants. Result - staff shortages

Will you agree with me that perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to "get away with it" ?

you work out a mechanism to fix it and, as long its not communism, Ill endorse it 🙂

Personally I think the only way you'll fix it is by widening the access to the grammar/public school system on a meritocratic basis. The brightest pupils given the opportunity to study in the best schools, regardless of their financial background so that they have the opportunity to select the careers they wish to pursue at will. Then there's no excuse for the thick or idle not to sweep the streets 😉

Flood the market with [i]capable[/i] wannabe bankers, that'll soon bring down the salary.

...and Grumm is spot on in one respect, the non-financial component of employment is what dramatically effects the supply-side of the employment market in some sectors.

TJ - that's an unfortunate gap that's been allowed to occur. The state have taken for granted the "goody-goody" value of many people in nursing and assumed it's great enough to pick up the gap in demand and supply. It used to, I'm sure, but as you say, no longer does.

No free market exists because the rates of pay are directly and indirectly set by quangos

you work out a mechanism to fix it and, as long its not communism, Ill endorse it

Oh there you go Stoner .......... we've only just set up our new dream coalition, and already the cracks have began to appear. Don't start placing obstacles in the way, otherwise it'll never work 😐

If we're going to bring anarcho-stoner-grizzlyism to the world, it has to be sellable to the electorate or we'll just look like the ugly lovechild of Bob Crow and Digby Jones. Communism will just go down like a bucket of cold sick.

it has to be sellable to the electorate

See there you go again ............. putting obstacles in the way.

[i]"The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do.[/i]"

Joseph Stalin

I dont have his charisma.

We need some front of house. I hear Mandelson will be out of a job soon?

Except that maybe some people are motivated by things other than money. Like doing a job that actually helps people.

Grumm, so thats a justification for paying them more than the job is 'worth'?

[i]Try Nursing. No free market exists because the rates of pay are directly and indirectly set by quangos. there is a significant shortage of nurses. However wages cannot rise to encourage more applicants. Result - staff shortages[/i]

TJ - that sounds to me like a vindication of free market economics, people are being paid less than they are 'worth' - and I'd seriously question whether the same wage restriction applies to management and administration recruitment within the NHS (ie, is there a shortage of applications for those posts?)

Also, are there regional variations in that? ie, is it harder to recruit in some areas (eg. the south east) due to living costs? - in which case one would think that staff are being underpaid in one area, and more than likely overpaid in another, due to a national collective bargaining agreement - well done the unions...

I dont have his charisma.

Nor his insight either probably. Uncle Joe once said, "Ideas are more powerful than guns" how very true. He then went on to say, "We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas ?" Well you can't really argue with that, can you ?

.

I hear Mandelson will be out of a job soon?

And I hear that he has unselfishly offered to stay in the limelight and work for the Tories :

[url= http://www.****/news/article-1216416/Peter-Mandelson-I-d-work-Tories-Labour-lost.html ]Peter Mandelson: I’d work for the Tories if Labour lost[/url]

The sacrifices the guy is prepared to make, is truly impressive.

Big but slimmer bloke - that is not how it works. NHS the unions ( not just the RCN) make submissions about wage levels, a quango then sets wage levels. it is not " free collective bargaining"

The other main employer is nursing homes. Much of their income is from the state in payments. The payments are set by quangos / local government. This limits the amount of cash in the system. With a cash limit in the system wages cannot rise to encourage recruitment.

People are looking at the job and saying its not worth it hence the shortages

Surely the point is that unfettered capitalism results in conditions of near-slavery for a large proportion of the population, needing a social control by the state to ensure justice /fairness. Unfettered socialism leads to market breakdowns and the divorce of people's needs from what is provided.

The best systems seem to be those balancing towards socialism where needs are generally universal such as schools, health, pensions, public transport; but capitalism where needs are more individualised.

The best systems seem to be those balancing towards socialism where needs are generally universal such as schools, health, pensions, public transport; but capitalism where needs are more individualised.

which to greater or lesser extent is pretty much the model we have in the western democracies. Phew, thank goodness 🙂

BTW - on the point of wages and bankers, if banking was such a desireable job there would be much lower salaries. One (of many) reason why salaries do climb so very high (also applies to lawyers and accountants in the big firms) is that it can be an extremely shit job if it werent for the compensation of loads of cash. There's little psychological gain from banking (unlike, say saving a life in a hospital) and the hours are extraordinary - think 7am to 9pm with no breaks as being NORMAL (70 hour weeks), not exceptional. Exceptional is all nighters and all weekends.

There's little psychological gain from banking (unlike, say saving a life in a hospital)

Nonsense. I'm sure that the adrenalin rush they get from making obscene amounts of money, far exceeds any simular feelings they might experience from saving someone's life.

Banking is for sociopaths of some sort though isn't it? They don't like the same things as other people like. 🙂

pffft.

youve been watching rogue trader too many times.

I don't know that's true. There are plenty of people on minimum wage who work extraordinary hours to make ends meet. Similarly, I know people in call centres who work stupid hours under great pressure - I'm sure they wish they were paid like bankers, too.

Yes, the banking world pays well and there are some good people in there, but I'm sure that society would be better off if they were paid half as much for normal hours.

I must admit, I am jealous of the salaries there because I see the relatively poor wages paid to professionals of similar capability in jobs of more social worth and I can't understand why it's happening.

I must admit, I am jealous of the salaries there because I see the relatively poor wages paid to professionals of similar capability in jobs of more social worth and I can't understand why it's happening.

Its a trait of this country(and others) I'm afraid. Jobs that have Social worth don't make money and are largely funded by the public and there's an awful lot of people who go by the old 80's mantra if it doesn't make money its no good.

and I can't understand why it's happening

i get ****ed off when hearing some muppet say "and that's why he's worth 110k a week" upon seeing one of their beloved fannyballers kicking a ball into the back of the net....

didn't rooney tell his team mates to guve the money they were planning on spending on his b'day pressie to the nurses fund. and not a single ****er gave a penny...

[i]There's little psychological gain from banking (unlike, say saving a life in a hospital)[/i]

I suspect many aren't remotely bothered about that kind of "gain", stoner. Long hours and a tough environment are hardly the preserve of the City - indeed, I am willing to bet that the daily pressures faced by my old boss (Senior Sister, emergency surgical admissions) would make Bob Diamond piss himself with fear. 😈

If the STW coalition ever comes to power, I'd like to see either: a separation of high street banking and what appears to be an out-of-control casino, or a return to plain old barter. 😀

How about a system of exchange based on the transfer of spares bin parts or fettling expertise for goods and services?

the fact that others (sweet, sweet people) work long arduous hours for less pay than a banker doesnt fundamentally undermine my argument that most bankers wouldnt work the hours and in the environment they do for significantly less money.

[i]doesnt fundamentally undermine my argument[/i]

I didn't say that, Stoner. But you might understand why I take a dim view of some of the abuse hurled at the public sector, and the NHS in particular (usually something along the lines of "he/she wouldn't last a minute in the [i]real[/i] world...").

And (though I would have followed her to Hell and back) my old ward sister was far from sweet... 😯

[i]How about a system of exchange based on the transfer of spares bin parts or fettling expertise for goods and services?[/i]

In the post-oil world, bike fettlers and spare part hoarders will rule over all. Hopefully.

Unfortunately some people in the real world (bankers, estate agents, landsharks etc) seem to assume that vocation means "mug who we can pay a pittance because they would do it anyway".

Would we really be any worse off if we got rid of most investment bankers etc? First against the wall and all that 😉