[Closed] So why don't football fans just withdraw support?

In answer to the first question - Why don't fat people stop eating; why don't alcoholics just stop drinking?

Football is going through a long change and like all culture change it's going to take a couple of generations before the new reality gets properly absorbed.
I remember when it was a regular thing in Friday nights and Saturday mornings talking to family "Are you thinking of going to the Villa this afternoon? Well if you do, see you in the usual place" - by the right hand stanchion in the Holte End. Just walk up to the turnstile at 20 to 3, pay the fiver and go in.
It's a very different experience these days. So those protestors aren't really protesting about anything tangible, but mourning a loss of something that in many cases only their parents' generation enjoyed. And what young person doesn't enjoy a bit of unfocused tribal posturing?

My daughter can be excused having Crystal Palace as her 2nd club. She currently lives on Holmesdale Road.

I guess what I mean is if you like following football don’t like what that “team”/”Business” etc. has become then why not just pick a different team?

I can't really explain, without repeating the previous answer. I mean, why not all become City fans, and support a team that plays brilliant football and wins trophies.

It wouldn't be the same team my grandad took me to. The one where I'd be all excited all day about, that my Grandma would make us sandwiches for. Parking his car in the sidestreet and walking there holding his hand with all the other men and kids. Him carrying a beer crate for me to stand on, or later when I was older being allowed down the front by the others on the terrace, and being told at final whistle to stay there and he'd come down to find me.

The place where I saw supermac, and then years a later as a student going to the game on my own after he was too ill, and seeing this young cheekie geordie Gascoigne.

We've not won anything since I've been born. They're owned by an absolute shite. Change, never.

I can understand all that...as much as I've no interest in football (in the sense of following any of it), I completely get why or how a fan could be a fan and it isn't something that can (or should) just be changed with a clap of the hands.

Fans of a club like Manchester United could instigate change by leaving the stadium empty, not buy merch and boycott sponsors. They provide the revenue and have massive power.

They don't though because they don't want to lose their season ticket slot and like wearing polyester t-shirts to the pub.

This shows how much they *actually* want it.

Coincidentally, FB memories has just informed me that it’s 7 years today since I took my daughter to her first match. She was 9.

I’ll never forget the look on her face as she first walked out on to the terraces at Old Trafford, with the Stetford End in full voice, her taking it all in with a massive grin on her face.

We were shit and lost 2-1 😂 she still loves coming to the match with me. It’s an event. A pilgrimage of sorts. Quality dad and daughter time, when you both feel part of something bigger.

Any big sporting event is brilliant, but something like a midweek champions league game against Real or Bayern, under the lights at Old Trafford (or Anfield, or the Brige) is another level altogether. The atmosphere is incredible. And a lot of that is down to what a lot of people sneeringly deride as ‘tribalism’

I see this thread has now descended, somewhat predictably into sniffily looking down from the usual ivory towers at football fans

First person to compare it derisively to Rugby (game of gentlemen blah, blah, blah...etc, etc...) due in 3..2..1...

What happened to FCUM who were formed in protest at the Glazer takeover?

This all feels a world away as a League 2 club supporter (although the reason I still support them probably has a lot to do with living 1000 miles away so I don't actually have to suffer them...)

It wouldn’t be the same team my grandad took me to. The one where I’d be all excited all day about, that my Grandma would make us sandwiches for. Parking his car in the sidestreet and walking there holding his hand with all the other men and kids. Him carrying a beer crate for me to stand on, or later when I was older being allowed down the front by the others on the terrace, and being told at final whistle to stay there and he’d come down to find me.

We’ve not won anything since I’ve been born.

I guess the lack of success is to a large extent what makes them the same club ???
Many of the younger supporters locally are all "optimisitic*" whereas a lot of the family and older supporters don't want promotion because it won't be the same club.

*Optimistic means expand the current 6000 seater that averages 1200 on home games to a 10,000 seater and a shed load of debt

You are wrong hugo...the fans are no longer just in the city or town the team are from, football is global, so having no fans in a stadium won't make any odds as the global reach will still be had and there are plenty fans globally, so it isn't possible to not turn up and have an impact.

This ^^^

Covid has shown the ‘big 6’ (I hate that expression and everything it apparently represents) they don’t need fans in the stadiums at all for the money to keep rolling in.

So why have season tickets? Why own ‘home’ stadiums at all, with all that expense to maintain? Why not just be a nomadic global franchise and play the matches in whichever arena in whichever country will pay the most to host them? It makes perfect sense. Less costs, more corporate hospitality and global pay-per-view. Like big boxing matches.

That’s what the ‘Superleague’ is ultimately all about, make no mistake. That’s what they want

Somewhat unsurprisingly, it’s not what the fans want

Somewhat unsurprisingly, it’s not what the fans want

Its not what some fans want. I reckon for some teams having them migrate round the world would please a larger number of their fans than the current approach.

Attendance AND merch.

Manchester United make 18% of their revenue from match day activities and 44% from the commercial side.

Even losing the 18% is a massive deal and cutting into the 44% would be catastrophic. Player salaries are £176m alone.

Also, you should be careful about describing "global fans" as something lesser. Those fans are as fanatical as any closer to Stretford and would happily join any organised group action to stop the revenue.

It won't happen because the fans couldn't organise something in a brewery and they don't actually care enough.

The Glazers ARE rinsing the cash out of United but the majority of that cash is given to them by supporters who whinge and complain they're powerless.

We can't do anything they cry!

Is that a 2 quid t-shirt you're wearing the you gave the Glazers 70 quid for?

Yeah, but...

If you’re going to be so sneering, condescending and patronising, you’d probably be better off if you actually knew what you were on about

Even losing the 18% is a massive deal and cutting into the 44% would be catastrophic.

you’ve seen the figures being bandied around for the ‘Superleague’ right? It’ll more than compensate. And that’s guaranteed revenue, year in year out, whatever happens

The holy grail. Ker-*ing-ching!

Finish the bottom of the league? No problem. There’s no relegation.

Fail to finish in the top four? No problem. The revenue is still guaranteed.

You can’t see why we’ve got a problem with that closed shop?

Also, you should be careful about describing “global fans” as something lesser.

Absolutely nobody has done. Far from it.

You think that nomadic touring teams will allow those fans in Singapore and Malaysia to watch these teams? Seriously?

Take a look at any FA Cup game at Wembley, 10 minutes after half time. All the best seats in the house are empty. Why? Because they’re all corporate hospitality and they’d rather have another glass of fizz than bother to watch the match. Real fans would give their right arm for seats like that

That’s the ‘fan’ that the Superleague are after. Or are you naive enough to believe that’s not the case?

This is about massively increasing the already obscene amounts of money they’re making. It’s a circus, and * the fans!

The part of all of this I have never understood is the level of obsession that fans have. You just don’t see it in other sports and I don’t know what it is about football that drives this obsession

Deep down football is an unjust game. Its flawed in the sense that in a game where  two reasonably matched teams   - such as two teams in the same division - compete against each other its practically deadlock - its too difficult to score a goal in football so much so that an hour and a half of playing can take place and no goals get scored at all - 22 millionaires failing to do the one thing tens of millions of people are paying to watch them do -  and its not even embarrassing and nobody asks for a refund.

Most sports have rules configured with fairness in mind and a scoring or judging system that means that the best team / player wins and the score reflects how well all the competitors played - one team that's a little bit better would win a match by scoring a few more points in a competition where lots of points were scored because both teams were good. Football results aren't really like that -the best team can lose, both teams can score nothing - the result is as likely to reflect a mishap or a poor refereeing decision as the performance of either team. You could change all that by making the goals a little bit bigger - but doing that would probably cost the sport billions.

I don't know if many fans register it but the excitement comes from the unjustness of the game - it means theres drama in a win, and theres hope for underdogs. It makes the whole thing a soap opera  - there are stories about football in the press 7 days a week even in the off season because theres always some unfairness to be debated.

Why don’t they get properly organised and boycott matches, cancel their BSkyB subscriptions for a year and let the clubs feel the financial impact?

because, deep down, I expect the scandal, drama and unfairness of this super league nonsense is just as exciting as the game itself

Take a look at any FA Cup game at Wembley, 10 minutes after half time. All the best seats in the house are empty. Why? Because they’re all corporate hospitality and they’d rather have another glass of fizz than watch the match

Very true. It happens at most big sporting events now, whether its rugby, wimbeldon or the nag racing. Its all about the money and not the fans. Its the wired sense of ownership that fans have I dont get, as was said earlier on about "we" are having a good run. Its how it has transcended from entertainment, which is what all professional sport is, to something more in the eyes of the fans

Its the wierd sense of ownership that fans have I dont get

i’ll just repost what I put on the previous page:

To go some way to understanding the importance of football, it’s worth reading Pies and Prejudice by Stuart Marconi.

The history of football is intertwined with the development of working class communities and has been clung on to during their post-industrial decline, like former mining communities still have their ‘colliery’ brass bands when nobody has been down a pit for decades.

Going off track now, but as an-ex goalkeeper, why when we have a blinder is it somehow seen as less important than the fancy dans at the other end.

22 millionaires failing to do the one thing tens of millions of people are paying to watch them do –  and its not even embarrassing and nobody asks for a refund.

An olden day millionaire 'failing' to do the one thing he was being paid to do thanks to the efforts of another. Sunderland should obviously hand that cup back!

That reminds me of Charlie Brooker’s description of Premiership Football:

22 millionaires ruining a lawn

😂

Re the German model being phenomenally successful, it's Bayern.
There were fan protests at RB Leipzig getting into the BL & when Dortmund went t*ts up and needed a loan that the banks wouldn't support Bayern lent them the money to keep some competition in the league.
Then the phase when VW were chucking money at Wolfsburg....

<edited. Because the two separate bits were too close together >

Real fans would give their right arm for seats like that

Possibly true, so why can't even be arsed to organise themselves into a coherent protest group. They just keep paying the hand that bites the. "Please sir, can I have some more"

I think there's a lot of truth in what Hugo says. But rather than addressing them you appear to have got defensive and accuse him or sneering. Is that perhaps because deep down you think he may have a point?

It won’t happen because the fans couldn’t organise something in a brewery and they don’t actually care enough.

The Glazers ARE rinsing the cash out of United but the majority of that cash is given to them by supporters who whinge and complain they’re powerless.

We can’t do anything they cry!

Is that a 2 quid t-shirt you’re wearing the you gave the Glazers 70 quid for?

Yeah, but…

So why don’t football fans just withdraw support?

To be honest, they probably are, but in dribs and drabs as the longer-term ones give up their season tickets and drift away gradually as they are priced out of it.

As football becomes all about 'the product' rather than 'the club' a fair few 'traditional' supporters may realise the product is a bit shit for the price...

Any big sporting event is brilliant, but something like a midweek champions league game against Real or Bayern, under the lights Europa League game against Granada or Real Sociedad at Old Trafford

FTFY

Ooooooo.... get you!

You’re on pretty thin ice to be making it tribal, aren’t you? Given our relative league positions?

The most pathetic title defence in football history is going to leave a Thursday night in Kazakstan looking like a pretty bloody good result for you lot. You may well not even get that. Normal service is resumed

#midtableobscurity

😂

I think there’s a lot of truth in what Hugo says. But rather than addressing them you appear to have got defensive and accuse him or sneering. Is that perhaps because deep down you think he may have a point?

Seems like you started a thread with the express intention of sneering at football fans and you found yourself an ally who joined in to do the same.

Neither of you seem particularly interested in having explained to you why the ‘obvious’ solutions you’re proposing won’t actually make a blind bit of difference

Well done. Don’t let the facts get in the way.

You can both retire with a brandy and a cigar in your wingbacked leather armchairs in your respective ivory towers and revel in your superiority to the thicko’s who continue to care passionately about their football clubs, and sneer at the conflicted compromises the present situation presents them with

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league

An old article, but presents a distinct contrast.

i’ll just repost what I put on the previous page:

To go some way to understanding the importance of football, it’s worth reading Pies and Prejudice by Stuart Marconi.

But that's history, important to an ever decreasing number of supporters as the club has pushed to be the "biggest in the world" at the behest of its support and low and behold they have lost what they once had. The Glazers are a convenient scapegoat. It is sad but inevitable, football has been moving this way for years, there is no integrity in the game and hence its soul has been lost.

An old article, but presents a distinct contrast.

Did you read it?

The final paragraph of the piece is rather telling in its lack of relevance to the current situation.

"In the last three years of the Bundesliga we have three different cup winners and three different champions," Seifert says. "Sepp Herberger, the coach of the West German team that won the 1954 World Cup, said: 'You know why people go to the stadium? Because they don't know how it ends.'"

It also fails to mention (perhaps deliberately) that Borussia Dortmund almost went bankrupt just a few years before that was written and had to take a loan out from Bayern Munich just to meet running costs like paying wages. So 50+1 didn't prevent that.

But that’s history, important to an ever decreasing number of supporters

It does allow some middle class supporters to try and pretend a link to the working class though.
A cursory look shows that it might not be the most academic and unbiased of works.

Fan protests against owners are also nothing new and just part of the game, I remember standing outside main road as a kid chanting "swales out" without any real understanding of what I was protesting about.

Owner's have been ****ing up football clubs since they existed, and fans have voiced their opinions of them. The only new thing is the 24 hour media coverage getting everyone in hysterics about it and a populist government trying to use it to their advantage.

What happened to FCUM who were formed in protest at the Glazer takeover?

Still going, They were featured on Football Focus last weekend I think.

It does allow some middle class supporters to try and pretend a link to the working class though.

And.... BINGO!

We’ve hit peak patronising

Well done to all involved 😂

We’ve hit peak patronising

Having some middle class type wrapping themselves in "we" and "us" whilst going on about working class roots is, I suggest, rather more patronising.
However keep indulging yourself in your fantasy about being a horny handed son of toil.

I’m just a United fan. I didn’t realise we had to burnish our credentials before commenting, comrade...

I know that technically it’s more applicable to Leeds, but Power to the people, and all that...

Solidarity, brother

Isn't it amazing how the PM of the party that is getting away with privatising the NHS by stealth somehow wanted to put the clubs back in the hands of the people?

Or that the party that is criminalising protest says we should listen and understand the frustration of the fans who got the game called off.

And he also had a meeting with Ed Woodward a few days before the Superleague was announced.

I’m sure that they wouldn’t have discussed it, they just randomly got together for a cup of tea and a chat

Because there’s no way that rapacious corporate capitalists like the Glazers have a shared interest with Boris, because he’s a man of the people.

I’m sure he’s watched loads of football. Like Dave, when he could remember which team he was meant to support

It won’t make a huge difference if they lose local support – football is a huge business now, fanbase is a global thing

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been watching a programme from some incredibly remote part of the world, and there are these villages with virtually no infrastructure but there are men and kids wearing ManU and Arsenal tee shirts!

Oh, and the only football team I ever went and watched was my local one, and I only went because it was kind of expected that kids at school liked football.
I think I only went twice, I was bored silly.
The only football teams I have any kind of interest in are the Seattle Seahawks and the Baltimore Ravens, and those only occasionally.

Sky Sports will the last thing to go in this house.

That's something I really don't understand. Piracy is very easy and you can watch every game, not just those shown domestically. You can even justify it now by using it to not give money to awful owners. Link aggregator sites are entirely legal and I'm not aware of anyone who has been prosecuted for viewing an "illegal" stream.

hxxps://reddt1.soccerstreams.net/ (obvious edit) is a good link aggregator.

Neither of you seem particularly interested in having explained to you why the ‘obvious’ solutions you’re proposing won’t actually make a blind bit of difference

Odd mix of naivity and condescension from the OP.

I think the whole Covid situation has shown how much/little difference crowds make to a clubs income (at least the "bigger" clubs).

Crowds were already dwindling at Newcastle (in protest against the owner), before the lockdowns started, so Ashley gave away 10,000 partial tickets to get the ground full again

These threads always brings out the non football fans who just don't get the passion.
For me I was lucky enough to be good at it. Lot of kudos in the class and students union.
My football mad mates really don't get cycling at all, most think it's for children. But then they never played to my level of football.

I'm not a football fan - not against it, just ambivalent. I used to play a bit when I was younger, but decided there were other things that I'd rather be doing. After that I've just gradually stopped watching it over the years - I'd genuinely struggle to name a single premier league player.

Anyway - seems to me that this is the outcome of a march towards total capitalism that we see in lots of things, as they move from being what they are actually supposed to be (a football club, houses, increasingly healthcare etc) and just end up being a business or an investment vehicle for a relatively small number of people. Some new wheeze for a few people to get rich.

I'm sure at one point there was an intention/pretense that these could be a win-win: a club could be a successful business AND what the fans want it to be - but unfortunately it's the nature of capitalism to push and push and push, until they've squeezed as much money out of something for it's shareholders, and the essence of what something started-as is lost or unrecognizable.

Politically, it's extremely interesting: Here you have Bojo's usual instinct to advance the interests of the rich and powerful, but confronted by extremely strong feelings unambiguously communicated by a massive UK voter demographic.
When he first came out against the ESL - I was pleasantly surprised: "**** me, Boris has done the right thing....", but then it turns out that he possibly/probably/definitely supported it in a private discussion with one of the architects a few days before. "ah yes, that sounds more likely...."

So maybe the answer is that fans should be putting pressure on the government to regulate, rather than trying to influence the behavior of their individual clubs? If recent history has taught us anything, this needs Marcus Rashford (Ha! there - I know one!) to send a couple of tweets, they'll be a few government statements/u-turns, but we'll get there within a week or so.

MSP

Owner’s have been **** up football clubs since they existed, and fans have voiced their opinions of them. The only new thing is the 24 hour media coverage getting everyone in hysterics about it and a populist government trying to use it to their advantage.

So why stick with that club when its no longer the same club?
Why not just go to a grass roots game ???

It was always going to be a problem when intense passions and historic loyalties/rivalries based on local industries and communities rubbed shoulders with global hyper-capitalism. It's amazing that it hasn't blown up before now really.

Quite funny that it's Man United supporters, the club which was the first to really embrace commercialism, who are now realising it's not all it was cracked up to be.

Lot of kudos in the class and students union.

Your university experience was very different to mine. Playing football wouldn't have got you kudos - being a drug dealer would though.

So why stick with that club when its no longer the same club?
Why not just go to a grass roots game ???

To try and help explain that a bit tongue-in-cheek -

If you are married (and not cheating) -
So why stick with that partner when it's no longer the same girlfriend?
Why not just go to a different potential partner ???

Plenty people will snort at that and think that is a stupid paraphrasing, but to the die-hard football fans, it is very much like that...which is why they can't just change.

So why stick with that club when its no longer the same club?

Owners change. Football clubs are a lifelong thing from childhood onwards. I doubt Mike Ashley will still own Newcastle in 5 years. I'm amazed that the Glazers are still there. I don't think they will be for much longer now their Superleague ambitions have been scuppered. They'll cash in and make a fortune.

Why not just go to a grass roots game ???

Plenty of people do both. We go and watch our local team, Ramsbottom United, in the glamour of the Pitching In Northern Premier League, which is quite a different experience from the Premier League 🙂