In facts it’s so clever I’d be surprised if it were true.
I don't want to quote my own words but I always thought electorally people underestimated Truss because of lots of ridiculous sound-bites.
That said she can still be a right-wing mess at the same time when she executes ideas.
hey’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic
It's a Tory thing - to do something at the very last minute.
Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won! LMFAO.
Actually furlough was 70bn so it could be.
(I was thinking about the 450bn - my mistake.)
Please stop calling them centrist as they are not. They are right wing.
Calling Blairites "centrists" distinguishes them from old school right-wingers of say the Dennis Healey mould.
For all their differences until New Labour came along left and right within the Labour had broadly the same goals, just different paths and strategies to achieve them.
That changed with the arrival of New Labour, a development which Thatcher claimed was her greatest achievement. New Labour's "Third Way" was a combination of right-wing thatcherite economics but which unlike the Tories would allegedly benefit ordinary working people.
Describing them as centrists is both a fair description and what they like to call themselves so I see no reason for not doing so. I can only assume that you are uncomfortable with the term TJ because as a slightly pink vaguely leftie individual you see the "centre ground" as something to aspire to 😉
Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won
Over the last few days it’s been rumoured that it’s closer than we think, albeit Sunak pretty much admitted defeat yesterday by agree that “…yes, he would support the new government”.
TJ's problem is that he defines political identity by the rules of 50 years ago. Thereby ignoring the fact that politics is all relative & that if the political population as a whole has moved to the right, then by definition what is now the centre has moved in the same direction.
the political population as a whole has moved to the right
Depends on whether you mean Scotland, England, or the UK (or even Europe).
The debate on this thread is clearly in relation to Westminster.
Someone has said TJ’s “problem” is that he views political identity in an out of date way… I think that mostly applies to views in England, which isn’t where he lives. Not much sign of Scotland, or the MPs they return to Westminster, following England down the same increasingly right wing path. How many Scottish MPs can Truss rely on for support…?
political population as a whole has moved to the right
I don't think that is true, they are often however nudged into more rightwing voting by lies, misinformation, fearmongering and character assassination. When you actually poll the individual policies of what is normally considered left and right, leftwing policies are hugely popular, even with lifelong tory voters.
Also a considerable percentage of the population are ignored and disenfranchised by the current political landscape, they have not swung to the right, they are just cast aside.
The majority of this country only think about the now. If she does that and calls an election we’ll have four more years of Conservatives in power. They’ve created a perfect storm by getting everyone to within a few days panic and riots, so that she fixes it this winter and becomes the heroine of the nation for six months at least.
Yep, that is what I think will happen. Do something to save the nation, get a quick election in on the back of that and then have a 'mandate' to do whatever shit you can for the next 4 years, including removing any help given this winter on energy crisis for next years winter.
No
The point is labour occupy roughly the centre ground so the right wing of labour are right wingers not centrist
Anyone who prefers to have a tory government than a left of centre labour one is a rightwinger
Anyone who prefers to do deals with the tories than the SNP is a right winger
The problem is these right wingers in labour have simply forgotten who the enemy is.
Ian Murray is a right winger. Anas Sarwar is a right winger.etc etc. All those who breifed against Corbyn are right wingets
By calling them centrist you are allowing them to get away with it.
Yes the scots context is important to me and more obvious but just because the labour party has become centrist does not actually change definitions.
Many of these so called centerists are to the right of folk like Healy
including removing any help given this winter on energy crisis for next years winter.
You cannot have millions of households, businesses, hospitals, schools, scout huts, etc, unable to pay their energy bills even if you have won a general election and have supposedly about four years before the next.
https://twitter.com/meadwaj/status/1566673754121543681?s=20&t=y0NUtbaTveD372dt_B70IQ
Wow. Interesting.
By calling them centrist you are allowing them to get away with it.
I think it stops them being called left-wing economically.
And I think Centrist perhaps excludes them being right-wing from a cultural and social perspective. It's the oppoiste of the red wall voters.
You cannot have millions of households, businesses, hospitals, schools, scout huts, etc, unable to pay their energy bills even if you have won a general election and have supposedly about four years before the next.
Nope, but can certainly help a lot less after winning an election combined with having more time to come up with approaches that satisfy tory voters and donors.
Same price controls the EU are talking about? Even proposing it had helped keep gas prices subdued, a bit… ‘till the latest Nord Stream 1 sent them skywards again. The only problem is that capping wholesale prices could result in reduced production/supply and energy blackouts, unless the government essentially takes control of production.
Anyone who prefers to have a tory government than a left of centre labour one is a rightwinger
Anyone who uses the term 'left of centre" is imo embarrassed to call themselves left wing and therefore probably right wing.
There is no reason to say left of centre, if the position is on the left it isn't in the centre.
If we are going to get fussy about terminology.
These folk are right wing from a cultural and social perspective
Anti immigrant etc etc
Wow. Interesting.
I’ll simply repeat what I’ve said in the past. Liz Truss is no rightwing ideologue.
Pk. Sorry for the hijack.
I made my point. Im just disappointed that so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency and that there is an ongoing attempt to turn it into a right of centre party as it became under blair
Do you really think labour mps cheering tory wins at a ge is acceptable
Ernie
My personal political position is way to the left of labour
There is no reason to say left of centre
There is if you fail the purity test. I’m left wing. That I don’t think that means that capitalism must be destroyed results in plenty of people saying I’m not left wing. People end up using the “left of centre” tag to try and push for a consensus on the left, without getting into the “you’re not left wing enough” debate. Control of our political system has been handed to the right wingers on a plate… if that’s to be countered, a coalition of those left of centre (no matter how far or not they are to the left) is badly needed.
so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency
Are you sure about that?
so called lefties on here dont recognise the fact that the modern labour party has a strong right wing tendency
I thought it was all we ever talked about? 😀
Unless of course you’re talking about the likes of binners, who we all know is an embarrassed Liberal Democrat.
If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what's to stop the companies just refusing to sell? Can you imagine the fallout if her first action turns the country off?!
Having said all this can you imagine if Sunak won! LMFAO.
Sunak was never going to win. As if the porkletariat and the Tunbridge Wells pensioners that make up the Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.
If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what’s to stop the companies just refusing to sell?
Contractual obligation? Hasn't setting a price cap always been ultimately the right of the government?
If Truss does announce a price cap per unit of energy what’s to stop the companies just refusing to sell? Can you imagine the fallout if her first action turns the country off?!
Like the Ofgem price cap presumably it would still be set at a profitable level. So it would still pay centrica et.al. to produce gas, just not at the inflated market rate. The only reason to shut off gas would be if you had wells that were excessively expensive to run, or had very low reserves so there was an economic case to save them for the higher price returning (which it might not, logically you'd have to keep the cap untill prices fell below it anyway).
If you added the votes up of Labour/ Lib Dems/ Greens/ SNP/ Plaid you'd beat the Tories at every election. We are not a RW country we have a political system weighted in favour of the right in every way possible.
You saw how scared the Tories were of UKIP splitting their vote but the left parties DGAF.
Sunak was never going to win. As if the porkletariat and the Tunbridge Wells pensioners that make up the Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.
For sure - it's always looked like that to me. Everything you said plus underestimation of Truss from the HIGNFY types.
But politics can throw up surprises can't it!
These folk are right wing from a cultural and social perspective
Anti immigrant etc etc
Not the Centrists I'm talking about.
Unless of course you’re talking about the likes of binners, who we all know is an embarrassed Liberal Democrat
Ooof - Lol. There is no other type of Lib-Dem! 😉
This thread comes to a halt in moments!
underestimation of Truss
No one overestimated the Conservative membership... they were always going to back her when given the choice of her or Sunak. It was a done deal once the MPs let her through to the final two. There is no "underestimation" of Truss as regards her winning the leadership run off with members... just a very low expectation of her as PM... I strongly suspect she'll live up to those low expectations now she's leader [well, will be in about 2 mins time].
Nope, but can certainly help a lot less after winning an election combined with having more time to come up with approaches that satisfy tory voters and donors.
There will be a lot of "middle class" Tory voters who are going to be massively affected by the energy crisis.
If you earn £70k a year and have £1500 mortgage, that leaves £2500 for everything else. If suddenly your energy bills are £500 a month then that is going to hurt.
Not to mention all the small business owners who are facing collapse over the winter.
The country is going to have 40 million socialists by January.
The country is going to have 40 million socialists by January.
This.
Once you become part of the group that is struggling - everyone's a socialist.
Not what history shows us, but I hope you're right.
Tory Party membership were ever in danger of voting for someone who looks a bit foreign.
https://www.ft.com/content/3ccc8cbc-beb1-4809-9b97-f7a7dbce8608
Is Rishi Sunak’s looming defeat in the Conservative leadership election because he’s not white?
I think the answer to this is “well, it’s complicated”. On the one hand, well, just look at this Opinium poll of Conservative members from January:
As you can see, had the Conservative leadership election taken place in January 2022, Rishi Sunak would have won it and won it comfortably. Now, here is an Opinium poll for the Observer from this month:
The picture from January 2022 has almost exactly reversed: Rishi Sunak has gone from defeating Liz Truss by 28 points to losing by a near-identical margin. I don’t think we can easily claim that January’s polls were wrong but August’s are right, and it stretches credulity well past breaking point to believe that Conservative members only noticed that Sunak was British-Indian in February of this year.
Obviously you need to read the FT link to see the graphs which the article is referring to.
Stringing it out worse than masterchef
This thread comes to a halt in moments!
Are you new here 😂
Ooof – Lol. There is no other type of Lib-Dem! 😉
What's wrong with being a Liberal Democrat?? (asking for a friend)
FFS Boris getting cheers and applause for his leadership through the war in Ukraine!
If she comes out of no10 draped in a union jack with that cat stuffed and wrapped around her neck like a tin pot Cruella de Vil it would no surprise me.
Starmer got till oct to get his party firing on all systems go or he might as well get a job somewhere else.
Everything you said plus underestimation of Truss
From what I've seen, it'd be hard to overestimate her.
I'm genuinely struggling to think of a candidate who was realistically in the running who wasn't either thicker than refrigerated Marmite or just downright evil.
