Any way at the moment regardless of which colour or who gets to redecorate number 10 we are just passengers in this global mess
That sounds a lot like the 'politicians are all the same' refrain
Our government have taken some very specific decisions to make a bad situation worse , brexit being the most obvious, Sunak admitting the government channeled money away from the most deprived urban areas being another
The legacy of the Tories& their brexit will be a long & painful one, especially for the poorest
"The eyes of the world are turning to Great Britain. We now have the moral leadership of the world, and before many years are over we shall have people coming here as to a modern Mecca, learning from us in the twentieth century as they learned from us in the seventeenth," said Mr Aneurin Bevan, Minister of Health, at a Labour rally in Manchester yesterday.
The meeting was called to celebrate the anniversary of Labour's accession to power. The Labour party, he said, would win the 1950 election because successful Toryism and an intelligent electorate were a contradiction in terms. His own experiences ensured that no amount of cajolery could eradicate from his heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. "So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin," he went on. "They condemned millions of people to semi-starvation. I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying, do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. They have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse."
The Government decided the issues in accordance with the best principles, he said: "The weak first; and the strong next." Mr. Churchill preferred a free-for-all, but what was Toryism except organised Spivvery?
As a result of controls, the well-to-do had not been able to build houses, but ordinary men and women were moving into their own homes. Progress could not be made without pain. People who campaigned against controls were conducting an immoral campaign. There was a kind of schizophrenia in the country, so that people reading newspapers and hearing talk in luxury hotels got an entirely different conception of what was happening, which did not square with the statistics. The bodies and spirits of the people were being built up - but the Government's efforts could not be sustained except by the energies and labour of the people. Production must be raised to make the new legislative reforms a living reality.
The Government never promised in 1945 that everybody was going to be better off. It knew some were worse off to-day, but it always intended they should be.
not much has changed in 70 odd years
Tories being Tories again.
Why is anyone surprised that Sunak especially, cream off the poor in their ways?
Tories have been transferring the countries wealth to the few for years.
When it's overt people are shocked. Not me.
The reason they don’t post anymore I have no doubt is because of the extreme level of intolerance on what many clearly want to maintain as a echo chamber of like-minded people.
This in spades.
I was suggesting that they didn’t want to try and defend the shit the tory party gets up to, which is a shame as be good to see the thinking behind why they think what the tories do is good.
Most people aren't interested in arguing politics on the Internet or in person. Their certainly not going to try and justify their choices to strangers on STW. None of the regular political posters on here would be swayed by any of their arguments they just want someone to attack and belittle.
Most of the people I've spoken to certainly from more humble backgrounds who vote tory do so because they have aspirations. It doesn't matter that a Labour government might suit their current needs better, just that a tory government might help them fulfil their hopes and dreams better. Largely it stems from the belief that tories look after economy better. No amount of arguing will change that, people have different life experiences and different views, that's just how it is.
the faux outrage @ Sunak in the daily fail is something else (as he's not their man) 😕
Largely it stems from the belief that tories look after economy better. No amount of arguing will change that, people have different life experiences and different views, that’s just how it is.
As I always say, we get the government we deserve. The problem isn't necessarily that people support the tories when they shouldn't, it's that they support a system of government and economics which has been proven not to work. We're living in a cult, and until the people in that cult break free from their brainwashing, nothing will change for the better.
@kimbers not at all
This lot have been unbelievable, I just don't think that in the current global climate No10 will be a passenger in What ever happens.
Don't forget that people of my generations only real experience of labour was Blair or brown.... and that's not ideal.
Said it again say it some more the shouting down, vitriol etc that's in modern politics on both sides has destroyed democracy
None of the regular political posters on here would be swayed by any of their arguments they just want someone to attack and belittle.
Maybe. I can only refer to myself but I have changed my thinking on subjects due to discussions on this forum. I am genuinely interested in discussions with tory voters as we live in a country where the tory party are in power the majority of the time and it is down to those very voters.
The rhetoric in some of these threads is horrific.
So is the treatment of the poor by the Tory party.
It's a Tory leadership contest. I would have thought that it's exactly what the people of Tunbridge Wells want to hear.
Largely it stems from the belief that tories look after economy better.
It’s a commonly held belief. Reinforced by the USA led credit crunch and subsequent fall out. Labour were in the hot seat… and arguable mitigated the crisis very successfully. Then we* voted them out of office, and the Tories stepped in and not only stalled the economy for over a decade, but used that stalling as an excuse to make workers poorer in real terms, and also to impoverish the services we all need… all while making some rich people very rich indeed, and helping them pass on more of that money to the next moneyed generation. Not a party for grafters, but a party of inherited wealth and capital.
[ *I’m including myself here, I only started voting Labour in 2017 ]
https://twitter.com/newstatesman/status/1555476253045673987?s=21
Sunak who is far more right-wing than some people on here give him credit for
I’ve even heard some people refer to him as a centrist! Both candidates are right wing. And both are signalling to their members that the “levelling up” agenda will be reversed. Which is doubly worrying, as it hasn’t even happened… the government that these two were in have been cancelling infrastructure projects in the North left right and centre… but still, the language of levelling up has unsettled the well healed elderly members of South East, so they’re being promised that the less well off areas will be screwed even more going forwards.
Sunak who is far more right-wing than some people on here give him credit for
I’ve even heard some people refer to him as a centrist! Both candidates are right wing.
But isn't "centrist" just a fancy term for right-wing?
Generally people don't mind being called left-wing, in fact people often claim to be left-wing when it is far from certain that they actually are.
In contrast people feel far more awkward and uncomfortable about being called right-wing so prefer to be called "moderate" or "centrist".
The fundamental psychological issue is that a lot of the public think in terms of left v's right on one scale.
You really have to look at things as left/right on one axis, and libatearian /authoritarian on a separate axis.
For example, Hitler was extreme authoritarian, but also extremely left wing.
It's all about balance.
Hitker was not left wing
Clever move from Sunak saying he wants to take money from poor areas and give it to rich tory shires. That’s just what the Tory selectorate want. They don’t care about the poor, they don’t care about social decay in deprived areas, they don’t care about ‘levelling up’ or interest rates going up or any of the other things which are going to crush the less well off. The selfish tory c**++ only care about one thing, themselves, and Sunak is now playing that perfectly.
Hitker was not left wing
Ah, that will explain why Germany's wealthy conservative elite backed him and why he sent left-wingers and trade unionists to concentration camps.
Clever move from Sunak saying he wants to take money from poor areas and give it to rich tory shires.
Nothing clever about saying it in front of someone recording the comments. I am actually genuinely surprised that he was that daft.
Presumably he wasn't aware that someone was actively recording but he should obviously have been very aware of the possibility.
What a muppet.
Nothing clever about saying it in front of someone recording the comments.
You think? I reckon it was deliberate, and now he’s doubled down on it on the hustings. He wants to paint truss as the tax and spend liberal whilst he’s the true blue Thatcherite. It could work.
People who were traditional Tory voters don't post in favour of the current government because they are not representative of most people with main stream right wing views. The current lot have no policy, no morals and no ideology.
There's also a lot of people who would like to see a more equal society who dont actually believe the way of the left is the way to successfully deliver it. There needs to be more of a social contract between citizens and benefits, consequences for not making some effort to contribute to society (dependant on ability to do so). All we hear from the left is how it's all the fault of the wealthy (and the way things are there's a lot of truth in that but it's far from the whole story), if we just redistribute wealth it will all be rosy, it won't. But hey we can't actually discuss an alternative view of how to achieve better equality without the left demonizing anyone who doesn't agree with their simplistic world view.
Now having put my head above the parapet I have every expectation of Rone, Dazh and Kerley and to a lesser extent Ernie having a left wing pile on so I probably won't bother posting again in this thread for a while.
You think?
Yeah - he doesn't just want to win the Tory leadership election he also wants to be a successful prime minister who wins general elections.
That comment won't win the Tories much in the way of votes and it is certainly likely to lose them many.
To deliberately want that to be recorded and provide Labour with powerful ammunition would be pretty dopey.
I suspect what happened was that he didn't give the possibility of his comments of being recorded and the likely consequences a thought.
But hey we can’t actually discuss an alternative view of how to achieve better equality without the left demonizing anyone who doesn’t agree with their simplistic world view.
The only "demonization" which occurs on here is from so-called centrists. Just look at their rants on the political threads.
On the previous page someone accused me of 'littering' threads, the suggestion is that I am some sort of rubbish because they don't agree with my opinions. Then there is of course the constant accusations of being a "cult" follower if you happen to disagree with someone who wasn't on your list of alleged offenders.
And God help you if you make a comment like that poor punter made on the Boris Johnson thread (a thread of endless hyperbolic ranting) when they had the audacity to say "I quite like Boris".
I have no idea why you even considered including rone in your list of alleged offenders btw, I don't know anyone who contributes to the political threads and who plays the ball rather than the man more than rone. His posts specifically focus on the topics and he ignores personal attacks.
I am not going to name names because personal attacks is something which I try wherever possible to avoid, but imo the real list of culprits is very different. Among the list is one individual who goes out of his way to insult all those whose political views he doesn't approve of - left and right. And another one who polices the political threads in his endless quest to challenge absolutely every comment that I make.
Who’s excited to see the drafting of what constitutes “unfair protests” ?
https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1555624903566663680?s=21
Someone’s had a quick go…
Unfair protest - someone telling me an uncomfortable truth that I don’t want to hear
~ from Liz’s Trussaurus
Largely it stems from the belief that tories look after economy better. No amount of arguing will change that, people have different life experiences and different views, that’s just how it is.
It's that word again, BELIEVE!
And no amount of pointing out the facts will make them BELIEVE otherwise.
I just want to say I'm along with this opinion.
https://twitter.com/centrist_phone/status/1553392856152375297?t=yHs1fIqNhvJKLvB4EIiplA&s=19
he doesn’t just want to win the Tory leadership election he also wants to be a successful prime minister who wins general elections.
Yes but and its a big but the only way he stands a chance of leading the party to a glorious GE victory is to be the leader.
Which presents a dilemma as what could help win the leadership election might not be what will win you the election.
However on the bird in the hand beats two in the bush it makes sense to aim for the leadership election first, especially if you are currently not doing well, and then hoping everyone will forget/you will invent some pacifying policies/the media will cover up for you.
I just want to say I’m along with this opinion.
The same Dr Moderate that insisted there was a secret undeclared electorate were going to vote Corbyn in to power?
I'm not entirely sure how he even thinks these centrist commentators will somehow influence the electorate?
The person setting low expectations for Truss is.... Truss, every time she's interviewed
In sure she will get a polling bounce - all new leaders do, but none of her policies so far announced will do jack to help people with cost of living crisis
But hey we can’t actually discuss an alternative view of how to achieve better equality without the left demonizing anyone who doesn’t agree with their simplistic world view.
Can't we, have you tried? I am up for any ways to achieve better equality but as you have said yourself it is largely the fault of the wealthy (or the power the wealthy have - media, MPs etc,.). I would even support a Starmer Labour government as I believe he would do a better job that the tory government even if far from what I would personally hope for.
I can understand why tory voters don't think the left wing way of solving it will work but at least they would be trying which is more than any tory government has done. Even discounting the current low bar government has any tory government really made things better across society or have they always pandered to the well off?
Yet the tory voters who don't think the left wing approach will work seem content with continuing to vote for a party where it is actually proven that it doesn't work over 50 years. Why is that?
mattyfez
Free MemberFor example, Hitler was extreme authoritarian, but also extremely left wing.
No he wasn't.
Anyhow, I'm still sticking with Sunak, think that's pretty much his fight back started. To be fair I'm a cynical bastard, so I reckon it's all a planned re-calibration of the tory image we are seeing anyhow. Captain 'reasonable' v psychotic pound shop thatcher. 😆
btw, that vid was probably released by himself.
Yeah a call to members, like the changing the rules to allow kicking out more asylum seekers.
It's a bit like Starmer pretending he was a lefty.
btw, that vid was probably released by himself.
Is that why Sunak's campaign team spent yesterday trying to minimise the very obvious and totally predictable damage which the video caused?
like the changing the rules to allow kicking out more asylum seekers
Changing the rules as to what it means to seek asylum is a depressing new low. But that it goes against all our international commitments is exactly what “take back control” is all about. The ECHR is the new bogey man trying to make us be humane and fulfil our international responsibilities to our fellow humans… [Sunak doesn’t mention that our existing commitments go beyond the ECHR, but even he (and the party members) are not ready to blame the UN yet].
https://twitter.com/bestforbritain/status/1555290958404747269?s=21
It’s the Australian system that’s being cited again. A quick summary by the UNHCR…
https://www.unhcr.org/asylum-in-australia.html
I shudder to think, Truss making a u turn before even being in power. No thank you
I wish neither could be
Truss went all Trumpy blaming the media for Johnson's downfall at hustings tonight
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/1557095374602616832?t=2WychtwhQYFFpqxDWD-dCQ&s=19
She's an awful public speaker
https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1557076650436820994?t=EXdJDJmrVWScQPY2YlThCA&s=19
Liz4LOLZ!!
She’s an awful public speaker
I reckon that might well work in her favour. Most people are very poor public speakers and Truss not being particularly good is likely to make her appear more normal and someone which the public can identified with. Especially among people who are truly fed up with slick and professionally polished politicians.
Mind you her soon to be opposite number in the Labour Party is also a pisspoor public speaker. Although in his case it is based on a boring monotone delivery and remarkable lack of enthusiasm in his own beliefs, rather than a lack of fluidity, so probably not so much of a counter-threat.
"@kelvin “go back to your own country”
Should we really expect anything better?"
Do keep up, the new trope is:
'Send them back from where they don't come from.'
Especially among people who are truly fed up with slick and professionally polished politicians.
That may have some gravitas were it not for the fact she's running to replace someone who uses the term "burst sofa" as his professional image. And look where that got us.
Those slick and professionally polished politicians, eh?...
Well, it seems that some reality might actually finally be entering proceedings and we're now getting the grudging acknowledgement from the candidates for the top job that everyones fuel bills hitting £4,200+ might represent a slight problem that may possibly need addressing
Good of them to finally acknowledge the elephant in the room
Of course they have no answers other than the usual flannel from Truss that somehow giving corporate tax cuts is going to magically help someone trying to exist on Universal Credit and some unspecified 'help' from Rishi
Its going to be an 'interesting' winter
Those slick and professionally polished politicians, eh?…
You are not aware of Johnson's strong voter appeal?
You thought that he became PM despite his bumbling persona, because of his overwhelming intellectual qualities?
