Matters little who gets the top job... what remains is a set of problems they are not ideologically prepared to address.
The frog boiling will continue.
The elder will vote conservative because they remember what it was like under Labour.
1997 - 2010?
I rememberer it and on the whole it was MUCH better than 1979 - 1997 and 2010 to now thanks.
Interesting to see how the 'magic money tree' is now refered to on here as though it was part of economic orthodoxy. Some of these young uns so easily taken in by DM Tory ideology, and they support Labour!
And these are the more politically savvy people. You can see why it goes so badly with the arguably less interested/more gullible average voter.
I read an interesting article in last month's Economist yesterday..
In the decade from 1997 to the financial crash, UK productivity was second only to the US amongst the G20 nations.
In the subsequent decade, the UK comes bottom of that list. (although we are projected to climb above Russia by the end of 2023).
Relatively low productivity arises from a failure to invest due to the availability of cheap labour. It's a systemic problem not one of laziness. Capital has been pouring into the property market, however, it's easier to be a rent-seeker than a producer. Have any of the candidates mentioned the housing crisis? Thought not.
Interesting to see how the ‘magic money tree’ is now refered to on here as though it was part of economic orthodoxy.
I can't be sure what your point is here - do you think there is such a thing as a magic money tree, or not?
Nope, don't believe in father christmas either.
Where do you think money comes from then? What do you think money actually is?
I think this is the point in the election process where is gets to be interesting for an outside observer (well, are any of us outside observers? - One of these plonkers is going to be PM, we just don't get any say). Tactical games will make all the difference here on in. If you are anti Truss and Badenoch (the more I read about her, the more I despise her) and currently voting Sunak, do you switch to Mordaunt? Or do you role the dice and switch to Bedernoch thinking if she gets into the last 2 your man would easily win in the members vote.
I think it was fourth form Economics class - our teacher said that a useful way to think about money is that is is not a thing that exists in its own right but a useful scale by which to measure the value of other things compared to each other. A portable version of barter that has been extended. So you don't create wealth you just change the value of things compared to other things.
There is totally a magic money tree.
Have you ever taken out a mortgage? Borrowed money to buy a car, or a bike? That money came directly from the magic money tree. It didn't exist before you asked for it, and as soon as you signed the papers - bang! It was magicked into existence. And that is how all money is created - just by asking for it and promising to pay it back.
another -1 vote for Penny M, Tobias Ellwood has had the whip removed for not turning up to vote in the confidence motion.
There is totally a magic money tree.
The tories have a magic money forest. Although they will sell it off cheap as with most other assets and then pay over the top for a small portion back.
The elder will vote conservative because they remember what it was like under Labour.
Should they ever get in again the graph will repeat itself as the young get older.
The young will eventually pay for the Labour magic money tree, while the elder may benefit but won’t have to pay the price.
A reminder that the Tories doubled the National Debt, in the decade BEFORE Covid.
This magic money tree?
'Where do you think money comes from then?' It's printed for the exchange of use-values and Keynes (no socialist) argues that printing money and Govt Exp should be against the trend of the markets and not behave like a Micawberish household economy. No magic involved at all.
It’s worth reading this thread
"If the government could just create money without limit it would soon be worthless."
argues that printing money and Govt Exp should be against the trend of the markets
spend in the bad times and save in the good?
'spend in the bad times and save in the good?' Exactly.
Tobias Ellwood has had the whip removed for not turning up to vote in the confidence motion.
Nice to see them acting quicker against MPs stuck in Moldova than against those accused of sexual assualt.
spend in the bad times and save in the good?
Yes. The past 12 years have proved that you can't cut your way to a recovery. But it's also important to direct that spending to the right place - giving all the money to the rich achieves nothing as 'trickle-down' is not a thing.
Nice to see them acting quicker against MPs stuck in Moldova than against those accused of sexual assualt.
It all depends if Boris regards you as 'one of us' or not.
I expect that we'll be see a lot more score-settling from the man presently masquerading as PM as he inexplicably continues in this weird pime ministerial theme park ride he's got going on at the moment
There has been a systemic failure in the UK and western economies to ensure that QE or the extra money is used to best effect. Rather than invest in people or new technology, big businesses simply used cheap money to finance share buy-backs thus reducing the number of traded shares, increasing profits per share and thus increasing dividends, bonuses and remuneration of executives rather than improve volume or productivity. Cheap money meant those existing property owners could leverage their wealth to buy more property, thus fuelling house price increases. Add in the billions used to fund useless PPE from their mates, lackadaisical response to fraud and tax avoidance and this government can hardly call themselves economically responsible. Ironically, just as we enter a recession, a large scale social housing building programme could be a sensible use of money - but as they’re not likely to be of benefit to Tory voters, then there’s little chance of it happening.
Apparently Elwood’s whip withdrawal is tactical as he is a Maudant supporter, so it helps Truss.
Can I recommend "The Deficit Myth" by Stephanie Kelton as a relevant read to some of the comments?
Topics not being discussed adequately - anthropomorphic climate change, housing, disparity between rich and poor.
I'm also finding some of the topics being discussed toe-curling as driven by gammons, such as trans issues. What is wrong with being woke? It's laudable?!
Democracy is on its death bed.
Trickle down is all they'rer offering, Tory and Labour...'get economy back on track, take a pay cut, don't strike, jam tomorrow.' The only one who's actually experienced trickle down is M Hancock.
Another comment about Elwood having whip withdrawn...whip's office made no attempt to pair him with an opposition MP so it's clear retaliation for his perceived 'disloyalty' - and it's one less vote for Mordaunt which might suggest she isn't johnson's preferred candidate.
Can I recommend “The Deficit Myth” by Stephanie Kelton as a relevant read to some of the comments?
Everyone should read it with even a remote interest in economics.
It was not the first but definitely the most accessible books on MMT.
And yes people are banding printing money and Q/E around without even a basic understanding of government finances.
It's not their fault, they've assumed it be a certain way for years. So did I until about 5 years ago.
But printing money is a nonsense that tends to be chucked around by right-wingers like John Redwood.
They don't understand that their own government signed off 400billion of spending to save the economy. Funded in theory by Q/E - which is not necessary to pay for things. But Q/E helps it look like there's a balance sheet at play. But it's balls. The spending happens first - bond issuance and subsequent buy back via Q/E is not needed.
Boris has a graded list of scores to settle, with presumably Rishi pretty much at the summit, so is this meant to tell us that he thinks that Truss is the only one with a hope of beating him?
she isn’t johnson’s preferred candidate
Surely Truss has to get the job for Johnson's knee-trembler-in-chief to have any hope of a government position after the beginning of September. And say what you like, Boris loves a knee tremble.
and it’s one less vote for Mordaunt which might suggest she isn’t johnson’s preferred candidate.
I honestly don't think Boris gives a toss who gets the job. All that matters to him is the continued "its SOOOOO NOT FAIR!!!' persecution complex.
The whole Elwood thing is sheer malice, as you'd expect from a tragic, petty, insecure little man like Johnson
Nice to see that 'I need you to do me a favour though...' diplomacy isn't just a Trumpian thing.
Her mettle, inner steel, and clarity of purpose have been indispensable in crafting crucial decisions.
What do you mean....that is exactly the sort of phraseology you'd conjure up in your non native language......and in no way something that would be copied and pasted in from a text you'd been sent to use.
Have you ever taken out a mortgage? Borrowed money to buy a car, or a bike? That money came directly from the magic money tree. It didn’t exist before you asked for it, and as soon as you signed the papers – bang! It was magicked into existence. And that is how all money is created – just by asking for it and promising to pay it back.
completely incorrect. At some level of money supply its arguable that there is more money moving around, but your +£10,000 on your current account has a matching -£10,000 on your loan account. Nothing has been "created". if your current account is with a different bank to your loan, the loaning bank transfers the money (netted, at the end of the day) to the current account bank, and they're only able to do this if they have cash in reserve provided by savers (in addition, they're not allowed to loan out all the money that the savers have deposited).
if the retail bank was really a magic money tree then they would all just print a limitless amount of money, be infinately rich and never go bankrupt. none of these things are true
giving all the money to the rich achieves nothing
Well if you give money to those who already have plenty they will look after it by putting in the bank and keeping it nice and clean and crisp.
Give it to those who haven't got a pot to piss in and they will go out and spend it on goods and services, thereby causing it to become dirty and grubby and limp.
Well if you give money to those who already have plenty they will look after it by putting in the bank and keeping it nice and clean and crisp.
They also will probably hand some of it to the tories as well which the plebs will fail to do.
Poorer people are much more likely to spend all of any increase and on locally produced goods or services whereas the rich are more likely to save it or spend on luxury goods from overseas according to the marginal propensity to leak. To stimulate the economy reward the poor!
I think Truss will pick up most of Badenochs support moving into 2nd tomorrow. How’s she doing in polls of conservative members vs Sunak?
I think Truss will pick up most of Baenochs support moving into 2nd tomorrow
That's how I see it too, I'm pretty much convinced we're gonna have Truss as PM by the 5th Sept
That’s how I see it too, I’m pretty much convinced we’re gonna have Truss as PM by the 5th Sept
Did folk who voted for Brexit in 2016 or Tory in 2019 realise where the 'chain of events' could deposit us?
they’re only able to do this if they have cash in reserve provided by savers
If you think that banks have to take in deposits in order to lend them out, then it is you that is completely incorrect. The reserve requirement in the UK is zero. You are right about it balancing - you have £10k to spend, the bank has a £10k loan on it's books - an asset. Where did the money come from?
How’s she doing in polls of conservative members vs Sunak?
Sunak is being trounced in all combinations of the final-two polls, I believe.
I’m pretty much convinced we’re gonna have Truss as PM by the 5th Sept
Yup.
FFS.
The plus side being that surely, surely(?), Labour can beat a Truss-led Tory party at the next general election.
I put a bet on Liz Truss as next PM last September at 5/1
I thought at the time that post-brexit Britain is now so absolutely ****ed that it had a certain crushing inevitability to it. It was almost preordained to happen
The bookies may as well pay out now as its surely just a formality.
I suspect my modest winnings aren't going to be much compensation for the horror that awaits us. I look forward to gnawing my own fist off while listening to hr stumble through her acceptance speech like a malfunctioning Speak and Spell
Let's be honest with ourselves.
Prime Minister Truss is the leader we currently deserve