[Closed] So these French Elections

Current politics is throwing up some interesting things at the moment:

1. Our coalition with its good and bad bits
2. The failure of socialist/labour parties to make the most of what should be their best opportunities
3. The rise of more extreme/fringe parties
4. Protest or real votes?
5. Socialist French leaders courting the far right!!!

I thought Sarko would have done a lot worse - it will be interesting to watch. More messy compromises...????

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/france-is-basically-hitler%2c-agrees-everyone-201204235151/

The French are all mental anyway. It doesn't matter what government they've got, they'll still be busy blockading ports, flouting EU laws, overfishing, going on strike, having sex with their neighbours wives, eating horses, smoking gitannes and annoying the rest of Europe, while shrugging Gallic-ally

[url= http://fr2012.election-maps.appspot.com/results/embed?hl=fr ]Here, have a pretty map[/url]

Sarko did better than I thought, but it looks as if he will be re-elected. The far-right will vote for him to keep the socialists out, most of Bayrou's vote will go to him too (this is where the balance hangs). The far left have always garnered that many votes, but because they have the one candidate rather than all the little left wing factions, it looks larger.

I've always loved the French attitude towards politics. They do seem to get far better turnouts and the physic dictates they're all involved and happy to wear their hearts on their sleeves.

I think we need a sea change in the EU, this middle ground stuff is just not going anywhere, lack of drive and foresight.

He will remain in power because he is short ... and we know all short people are very cunning ...

I think we need a sea change in the EU, this middle ground stuff is just not going anywhere, lack of drive and foresight.

if the left get in we'll be stoney broke

Most of Europe is there already. The EU are trying to hush it all up for a bit, but the Spanish economy is an utter car crash, with completely unsustainable levels of debt. A situation that it refuses to do anything to address. Italy is not far behind. And that's before you get to the real basket cases.

The Eu is ****ed!!! Yet the French are part of the fingers-in-ears la-la-la-we're-not-listening problem

Yet the French are part of the fingers-in-ears la-la-la-we're-not-listening problem

binners - Member

The French are all [s]mental[/s] [b]too cool [/b]anyway. It doesn't matter what government they've got, they'll still be busy blockading ports, flouting EU laws, overfishing, going on strike, having sex with their neighbours wives, eating horses, smoking gitannes and annoying the rest of Europe, while shrugging Gallic-ally

FTFY

geoffj - believe me, none of that was intended as a criticism. Well.... maybe the eating horses bit 😀

8)

Adding another one:

6. Hollande (the true enemy is the world of finance) having to tap international capital markets urgently in the early days of his term. How will the rhetoric change?

we due a French re-fi soon then THM?

Fortunately not - the French have more immediate funding requirements (approx 20% GDP financing due in both 2012 and 2013) plus a greater %age of funding coming from offshore than the UK - a minor inconvenience peut-etre? So if you have little/no intention of introducing austerity packages (presumably) then you have the unenviable choice (for Hollande) of bending over backwards and being rodgered by those you despite or swallowing Gallic pride and going to the eurozone bailout funds or the IMF.

Well not sure the votes from the centre are going to the UMP. Plus it will be interesting to see who the [s]morons[/s][s]IDtenT[/s] don't really know how to name them, people who have voted FN just for the sake of protesting are going to vote for. I don't want to believe 20% of fellow french who went to the poll are genuine racists. I still want to think they just want things to change. Best bet will be indeed to vote for the centre (come with such program hollande is not left wing). I'll be watching the news very closely.
I really hope we get the least worst disease on the second round.

THM - but he'll be able to disassociate the act of boring to spend from actually engaging with the financial markets. Everyone knows government expenditure comes only from taxes...dont they? 😉

"Je vois", dit l'homme aveugle!! Merci beaucoup.

Mange tout, THM, mange tout.

The French know all about being condescended to and often respond in kind. Fais gaffe. 😀

Julian, sorry, dont understand the joke/point? I was responding to Stoner's comments on tax in what was also meant to be a joke!

chewkw - Member

He will remain in power because he is short ... and we know all short people are very cunning ...

Priceless ! Thanks chewkw 😀

.

I don't want to believe 20% of fellow french who went to the poll are genuine racists. I still want to think they just want things to change.

I hear that at least 40% of the FN's vote is expected to go to Hollande in the second round. So that means that almost half of those who voted for the far right will be voting for the left wing candidate rather than the right wing candidate when it's a straight choice between the two.

Which of course makes no sense at all and speaks volumes about FN voters. I suspect that sort of completely irrational attitude is widespread throughout Europe including in the UK. And it has historical precedents going back to the 1930s.

On the face of it working class people being attracted to the lies and simplistic solutions of the far right should be the cause of despair and despondency, but all the evidence is that this support is extremely soft and can be successfully challenged if the determination is there. It just requires education leading to better political understanding and awareness.

On the plus side support for the far right from ordinary working people shows that they have reached a position whereby they feel that radical solutions to their problems is required, that's no bad thing. Obviously the lies and simplistic solutions of the far right plays right into the hands of those who are actually responsible for the problems, but once that angry is redirected at those who are actually responsible, then substantial progress can be made. Voting FN and the Socialist 2 weeks later suggests that many aren't sure who to direct their anger at.

Ernie - do you think that Front Nationale's recent [b]economic[/b] policies were "right" wing or "left" wing?

if you can learn to tackle the dichotomy of a "right wing" party being fundamentally socialist , then you'll begin to understand why so many of their voters will go to Hollande.

There has been a change in FN policies since the 70's that has very much seen a move from capitalism.

(I've pointed this out to you with a critique of the BNP's economic policies before BTW!)

Yes of course Zulu-Eleven, the FN is left wing/socialist. That's why everybody, apart from you that is, describes them as the far right.

No doubt you'll also want to tell us that Melenchon and the Left Front is in fact conservative ?

See, there you go, making an idiot of yourself ernie

Which of the FN policies is [b]economically[/b] "right" wing?

A fundemental aspect of Marine Le Pen's policy is is to nationalize a huge tranche of public services and she sees a strong and central government as an important platform of its economic policy - in the words of the FN:

[i]Le FN promeut par ailleurs des services publics dignes de ce nom, portés par un Etat fort, stratège, protecteur et solidaire[/i]

Basically, The National Front wants a strong state that takes a lot of decisions for its constituents, on social and economic issues

On energy policy, they want to:

Impose freedom of research and commercialization of alternative fuels against the oil lobby.
Develop a plan to reduce consumption of fuel with eventual goal of replacing 10%, oil imports by fuels.
Create support for research in alternative energy to oil: hybrid, fuel cell, use of gas and biofuels.

She claims to be attached to the French public utilities, the civil servants and the general interest.

She opposes the programmed privatization of the French Post Office (La Poste) : in her view, "the privatization, with the aim of only making profitable, will result in the removal of post offices in the rural areas where the relinquishment of the state is already high".

She warned that the UMP government planned a "progressive privatization of the French Social Security system from 2011" and that this was a condition imposed by the financial markets.

The FN favour a "protectionism that encourages cooperation in trade among nations through the end of 'unbridled free trade'"

Is this really the policy base of a right wing economic party?

See, there you go, making an idiot of yourself ernie

Obviously Zulu-Eleven, along with everyone else in the world who describes the FN in France as the far right.

Except for you of course Zulu-Eleven - you're a bit of a smarty-pants, and therefore you describe them as left wing socialists.

Listen Z-11 here's a tip for you - if you are going to troll then at least try to add a comic angle to your trolling. It would make it all so much less tedious.

The Dutch cabinet resigned today after Geert Widers pushed them over the edge by refusing to back austerity measures
Interesting days indeed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/apr/23/eurozone-crisis-austerity-dutch-government

No ernie - you're creating a straw man argument - I did [b]not [/b]say that the FN was left wing, I said that there was a dichotomy involving a "right wing" party being fundamentally socialist

I'll ask you again Ernie - do you think that Front Nationale's recent economic policies were "right" wing or "left" wing? go on, answer it!

[i]"the philosophy of the FN's economic project comes down to some words: construction of a strong, protective and strategist state, reasoned protections at the boundaries, support to the small and medium enterprises, and get back the monetary sovereignty, only able to assure France's recovery"[/i]

I don't think you've actually considered any of the FN's actual policies Ernie - you're just on the bandwagon!

Question to consider - Whats the FN's policy on privatisation of the motorway network?

There has been a change in FN policies since the 70's

Ermmmm nope. Same sh1te different wrapping paper. But I am sure you are going to tell me I am wrong and I know ****-all about French politics.

No change in the [b]Economic [/b] policies Juan?

You sure? go on then, whats the FN's recent policy on privatisation?

Ever heard the phrase ‘gaucho-lepenisme'?

What change tell me...? Funny you hang on this string so tightly. Basically the Front Nazi isn't having a socialist economic policy at all. They are just bragging about a couple of highly criticised fact that happened during the mighty midget reign.
I think you should read more about the FN program and see how much of socialist they are
"kick out all people who form their criteria aren't french"
"Putting back death penalty (and no not for bike thieves"
"Banning IVG"
And don't get me started on their social policy.

What have those issues got to do with Economics Juan?

Show me their free market capitalist economic policies - this is nothing to do with the death penalty or immigration.

C'mon then - whats their position on nationalisation/privatisation?

Z11 is quite correct on this occasion, and its quite common for "hate parties" to have quite socialist economic policies. They don't actually believe in socialism, its just one of the tools used to build their hopeful path to power. They tend to target the most disadvantaged groups in society to build their power base, and need some policies that sound like would be beneficial to that group to dress up their more hateful agenda.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

No ernie - you're creating a straw man argument

😀

I'm not creating any sort of argument !

I'm not arguing with you at all !

I'm very happy to leave you to your trolling 8)

I see you've not been able to point is to any of these "right wing" capitalist policies Ernie 🙄

A little light reading for the doubters

FN are a hardline nationalist party, they are neither right or left wing, simply populist.

[img] [/img]

I see you've not been able to ......blah, blah, blah

Well we've already established that I'm "an idiot" along with everyone else who calls the FN in France a far right organisation ..... politicians, the media, etc.

And we've also established that you, on the other hand, are bit of a smarty-pants.

It looks to me like you've won to me.

So now you can strut around looking and feeling really smug ..... you deserve it mate - well done.

Sauce for the goose Ernie, sauce for the goose

Where's these right wing economic policies? c'mon, should be fairly easy for you to point me towards them!

By the way, I can even disprove your claim that [b]everyone[/b] else calls them far right

https://twitter.com/#!/afneil/status/194354152405606400

I notice someone only becomes a troll [i]after[/i] they've caught you on the hop 😉

I can even disprove your claim that everyone else calls them far right

And it's another win for Zulu-Eleven !!!!!

Seriously mate, this is cause for celebration........why don't you leave your computer a moment and do a little Lazy Town dance - because you've won !!!

[img] [/img]

Am I getting this right? Zulu believes a nazi party are left wing? jeezo -he is further to the right than I thought - how far to the right can yo be if you think a nazi party are lefties.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Whilst thinking of Lazy Town no doubt, eh ?

National [b][u]Socialism [/u][/b] is right wing TJ? 😯

One of the most amusing things about the "usual suspect" lefties on here us their inability to comprehend an argument beyond the most simple "four legs good, two legs bad" - when you throw them with a nuanced argument like [i]"a dichotomy of a 'right wing' party with 'left wing' economic policies"[/i] they drop into a flat spin!

Am I getting this right?

Zulu-11 is very right and not trolling. Ernie, the typical left right dimension is overly simplistic. That is one of the first things you learn when studying politics or "state science".

And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

Thought experiment - why are unions who support labour often highly against open/large immigration? Does that make a union right- wing? The answer is no, immigration does not fit in on a left/right scale.

I hate to say it but for once Z-11 is correct.

Don't the BNP have similar policies designed to appeal to disaffected 'old labour' voters?

Zulu-11 is very right and not trolling. Ernie, the typical left right dimension is overly simplistic. That is one of the first things you learn when studying politics or "state science".

Read what I wrote in my OP.

And you could do too grum, RE : [i]"Don't the BNP have similar policies designed to appeal to disaffected 'old labour' voters?"[/i] I mention the "positive" aspect of ordinary working people voting far right.

.

And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

Guardian readers no doubt.

wrecker - Member

Am I getting this right?

No you're not Teej. No you're not.

So zulu is not claiming a nazi party are lefties?

And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

Really -*checks history books*

Tandemjerry: don't know if you're pulling my leg but they were socialists.

Electoral platform of the National Socialist German Workers Party

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.
17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.
20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.
21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

Hardly looks like it was written by Thatcher, does it 😉

swedishmatt - Member

Tandemjerry: don't know if you're pulling my leg but they were socialists.

really? Nazis are socialists?

*checks history books again*

Does this mean Ernie is a Nazi? he does appear to be a socialist.

Tandemjerry: no idea what you're trying to achieve. Have fun.

Nah, Ernie's a dyed in the wool Trot 😉

swedishmatt - Member

Tandemjerry: no idea what you're trying to achieve. Have fun.

Poking fun at the weird concept of a nazi / facist party being lefties

Tandemjerry: would be happy to discuss over a beer. No idea about your level of interest. Typical left right dimension revolves around, in essence, the size/influence of the state.

Socialism/communism on the left and facism/conservatism on the right.

Nazis were left-wing with strong authoritarian tendencies. Facism is not the same thing as the german nazi party. Fair enogh, some would argue the german 1930-1940 party of national socialist democratic party were neither right ir left wing so feel free to have that opinion. I implore you to find a party with the word social and worker in the title to be a right-wing party amywhere else.

You don't have to trust me on this, google is your friend. The media talk is overly

I was meant to write that the media and powers that be often refer to parties with a rstrictive stance to immigration to be "right wing". This type of labelling is truly bot reflective of their general policies on the size of the state (used in its broad sense and overly simplistic model of a singular political dimension).

The uk media landscape is utterly simplistic.

I simply disagree - the French Nazis originally referred to are not lefties, nor were the german Nazis or any other nazi / facist party. The ideology is far right despite leftist rhetoric used in some propaganda.

Tandemjerry: The french nazis? Front national? They're not nazis.

Anyway, i'll leave this discussion as it's late.

Tandemjerry: what do i know. Politics is there to be discussed. My former lecturers and writers of books on political ideology, and i, would say you're wrong on NSDAP anno 1940.:)

Im bo expert on front national.

Good night.

Not nazis? Really?

TJ, it's not as simple as right or left. Here's one example

[img] [/img]

I expect no less from Z-11 but it's interesting to note how a few others are happy to say rather silly things which contravene accepted protocols when describing political ideologies. I guess though, that it conforms with that desperate middle-class need to engage in futile intellectual dueling and point scoring over pointless pedantic points, which is sometimes so prevalent on here.

swedishmatt - Member

I was meant to write that the media and powers that be often refer to parties with a rstrictive stance to immigration to be "right wing". This type of labelling is truly bot reflective of their general policies on the size of the state (used in its broad sense and overly simplistic model of a singular political dimension).

The uk media landscape is utterly simplistic.

So utterly simplistic that you do it yourself, ie, you equate [i]any[/i] state ownership with socialism - everything else is simply dismissed.

A 100 years ago the neoliberalism which Thatcher espoused would have been considered by many as left-wing, coming as it did as a conclusion by some from classical neoliberal. However as we understand it Thatcher was not left-wing, she was right-wing. Likewise as we understand it, neo-nazis, the BNP, the Front National in France, etc, are far-right organisations, despite Z-11's protestations. And you can fart around as much as you like with your "yes but if you look at this particular policy" and "but the Nazis used the word socialism" but it won't changed the facts, other than in your own personal silly little worlds.

Well that is pretty dodgy - its all somones interpretation and much of that is highly questionable.

Grums post not Ernies

Ernie, ah yes. I only studied this at university for four years. It tends to lead you to discuss what you call the pedantic points.

I btw didn't equate 'the size of the state' to state ownership. That's your interpretation of what i wrote.

Ernie, ah yes. I only studied this at university for four years.

😀 priceless..........."I went to university" !

I thought you were going to bed btw ?

I btw didn't equate 'the size of the state' to state ownership. That's your interpretation of what i wrote.

You want to read what I wrote. Here it is again :

"you equate [i]any[/i] state ownership with socialism"

sweedishmatt - its not a "rstrictive stance to immigration" that makes them right wing its the racist nazi ideology

Ernie, make fun of my degree. I don't mind, i wouldn't study it again. It is only useful when discussing shit on internet boards.

Tj: one last comment, nazi refers to the german nazi party. Nazi is not another word for 'racist'.

Im writing this on my phone which has 5% battery. I dont equate any state owbership wirh socialism? Like really? How do you make that?

Ernie, i dont have a beef with you. I dont support FN.

Never argue on the internet.

Ernie, make fun of my degree. I don't mind

I not making any fun of your degree.

Sadly however, I couldn't give a monkeys that you've got a degree.

Anymore than I give a monkeys that Gordon Brown has a PhD.

Ernie: good!

Tj: one last comment, nazi refers to the german nazi party. Nazi is not another word for 'racist'.

there are many other groups that follow a nazi ideology - BNP for one.

racism is one component of a nazi philosophy.

BTW swedishmatt, RE : [i]"Never argue on the internet"[/i]...... wrong attitude. Argue by all means, and the fact that you have a degree should mean that you can argue well. But don't try the old "I went to university" stroke - you won't win like that, not with me anyway. Besides, it's always best to keep your cards close to your chest.

Tandemjerry: The french nazis? Front national? They're not nazis.

the FN voters don't technically qualified.

There's a technical qualification? City & Guilds or a Euro equivalent or something?

I suspect it'd be a residential course at some sort of Summer camp 😀

Back to the original topic.....

These French elections are a key moment in stage 2 of the denouement of the European Folly as represented by the current Euro project.Stage 1 was the economic and financial crisis that remains on-going and is about to blow another vent. Stage 2 is further social unrest and the questioning of political legitimacy. Political parties are being questioned across Europe and failing to respond. France and the Netherlands yesterday were merely steps on an on-going path that is as ugly as it is predictable. A challenging summer ahead.

You really do want the Euro / EU to fail and will distort everything to make it fit your view won't you. 🙄