[Closed] So these French Elections

I hate to say it but for once Z-11 is correct.

Don't the BNP have similar policies designed to appeal to disaffected 'old labour' voters?

Zulu-11 is very right and not trolling. Ernie, the typical left right dimension is overly simplistic. That is one of the first things you learn when studying politics or "state science".

Read what I wrote in my OP.

And you could do too grum, RE : [i]"Don't the BNP have similar policies designed to appeal to disaffected 'old labour' voters?"[/i] I mention the "positive" aspect of ordinary working people voting far right.

.

And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

Guardian readers no doubt.

wrecker - Member

Am I getting this right?

No you're not Teej. No you're not.

So zulu is not claiming a nazi party are lefties?

And the nazis were indeed lefties of the highest order.

Really -*checks history books*

Tandemjerry: don't know if you're pulling my leg but they were socialists.

Electoral platform of the National Socialist German Workers Party

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.
17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.
20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.
21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

Hardly looks like it was written by Thatcher, does it 😉

swedishmatt - Member

Tandemjerry: don't know if you're pulling my leg but they were socialists.

really? Nazis are socialists?

*checks history books again*

Does this mean Ernie is a Nazi? he does appear to be a socialist.

Tandemjerry: no idea what you're trying to achieve. Have fun.

Nah, Ernie's a dyed in the wool Trot 😉

swedishmatt - Member

Tandemjerry: no idea what you're trying to achieve. Have fun.

Poking fun at the weird concept of a nazi / facist party being lefties

Tandemjerry: would be happy to discuss over a beer. No idea about your level of interest. Typical left right dimension revolves around, in essence, the size/influence of the state.

Socialism/communism on the left and facism/conservatism on the right.

Nazis were left-wing with strong authoritarian tendencies. Facism is not the same thing as the german nazi party. Fair enogh, some would argue the german 1930-1940 party of national socialist democratic party were neither right ir left wing so feel free to have that opinion. I implore you to find a party with the word social and worker in the title to be a right-wing party amywhere else.

You don't have to trust me on this, google is your friend. The media talk is overly

I was meant to write that the media and powers that be often refer to parties with a rstrictive stance to immigration to be "right wing". This type of labelling is truly bot reflective of their general policies on the size of the state (used in its broad sense and overly simplistic model of a singular political dimension).

The uk media landscape is utterly simplistic.

I simply disagree - the French Nazis originally referred to are not lefties, nor were the german Nazis or any other nazi / facist party. The ideology is far right despite leftist rhetoric used in some propaganda.

Tandemjerry: The french nazis? Front national? They're not nazis.

Anyway, i'll leave this discussion as it's late.

Tandemjerry: what do i know. Politics is there to be discussed. My former lecturers and writers of books on political ideology, and i, would say you're wrong on NSDAP anno 1940.:)

Im bo expert on front national.

Good night.

Not nazis? Really?

TJ, it's not as simple as right or left. Here's one example

[img] [/img]

I expect no less from Z-11 but it's interesting to note how a few others are happy to say rather silly things which contravene accepted protocols when describing political ideologies. I guess though, that it conforms with that desperate middle-class need to engage in futile intellectual dueling and point scoring over pointless pedantic points, which is sometimes so prevalent on here.

swedishmatt - Member

I was meant to write that the media and powers that be often refer to parties with a rstrictive stance to immigration to be "right wing". This type of labelling is truly bot reflective of their general policies on the size of the state (used in its broad sense and overly simplistic model of a singular political dimension).

The uk media landscape is utterly simplistic.

So utterly simplistic that you do it yourself, ie, you equate [i]any[/i] state ownership with socialism - everything else is simply dismissed.

A 100 years ago the neoliberalism which Thatcher espoused would have been considered by many as left-wing, coming as it did as a conclusion by some from classical neoliberal. However as we understand it Thatcher was not left-wing, she was right-wing. Likewise as we understand it, neo-nazis, the BNP, the Front National in France, etc, are far-right organisations, despite Z-11's protestations. And you can fart around as much as you like with your "yes but if you look at this particular policy" and "but the Nazis used the word socialism" but it won't changed the facts, other than in your own personal silly little worlds.

Well that is pretty dodgy - its all somones interpretation and much of that is highly questionable.

Grums post not Ernies

Ernie, ah yes. I only studied this at university for four years. It tends to lead you to discuss what you call the pedantic points.

I btw didn't equate 'the size of the state' to state ownership. That's your interpretation of what i wrote.

Ernie, ah yes. I only studied this at university for four years.

😀 priceless..........."I went to university" !

I thought you were going to bed btw ?

I btw didn't equate 'the size of the state' to state ownership. That's your interpretation of what i wrote.

You want to read what I wrote. Here it is again :

"you equate [i]any[/i] state ownership with socialism"

sweedishmatt - its not a "rstrictive stance to immigration" that makes them right wing its the racist nazi ideology

Ernie, make fun of my degree. I don't mind, i wouldn't study it again. It is only useful when discussing shit on internet boards.

Tj: one last comment, nazi refers to the german nazi party. Nazi is not another word for 'racist'.

Im writing this on my phone which has 5% battery. I dont equate any state owbership wirh socialism? Like really? How do you make that?

Ernie, i dont have a beef with you. I dont support FN.

Never argue on the internet.

Ernie, make fun of my degree. I don't mind

I not making any fun of your degree.

Sadly however, I couldn't give a monkeys that you've got a degree.

Anymore than I give a monkeys that Gordon Brown has a PhD.

Ernie: good!

Tj: one last comment, nazi refers to the german nazi party. Nazi is not another word for 'racist'.

there are many other groups that follow a nazi ideology - BNP for one.

racism is one component of a nazi philosophy.

BTW swedishmatt, RE : [i]"Never argue on the internet"[/i]...... wrong attitude. Argue by all means, and the fact that you have a degree should mean that you can argue well. But don't try the old "I went to university" stroke - you won't win like that, not with me anyway. Besides, it's always best to keep your cards close to your chest.

Tandemjerry: The french nazis? Front national? They're not nazis.

the FN voters don't technically qualified.

There's a technical qualification? City & Guilds or a Euro equivalent or something?

I suspect it'd be a residential course at some sort of Summer camp 😀

Back to the original topic.....

These French elections are a key moment in stage 2 of the denouement of the European Folly as represented by the current Euro project.Stage 1 was the economic and financial crisis that remains on-going and is about to blow another vent. Stage 2 is further social unrest and the questioning of political legitimacy. Political parties are being questioned across Europe and failing to respond. France and the Netherlands yesterday were merely steps on an on-going path that is as ugly as it is predictable. A challenging summer ahead.

You really do want the Euro / EU to fail and will distort everything to make it fit your view won't you. 🙄

TandemJeremy - Member
racism is one component of a nazi philosophy....

...as is religious intolerance 😆

TYJ - learn the lessons from yesterday and from your bans. Please lets not have a repeat.

Nothing to do with what I want - no one wants economic or social chaos for obvious reasons. The Euro project (in its current form) will fail for the simple reason that it is based on flawed foundations. Politicians of all parties have been dishonest with their populations and the recent agreements were such an obvious fudge that all of this is inevitable. For that reason, people across Europe (not just me!) and now waking up to this deceipt and correctly questioning the legitimacy of the political elites. Like Marie Antoinette, these people have bought this on themselves with their dishonesty.

I am agnostic about the merits of a properly executed economic and monetary union. It has pros and cons as an basic economics textbook will point out. There is genuine debate as to whether Europe represents an "optimum currency area" and that is an interesting essay topic in its own right. But, as for supporting a flawed economic construct, then no it doesn't fit my view nor that of an increasing number of people across Europe. In that context, the Dutch case is perhaps the most important development of all and far more telling than France.

Juan,

"Everything else fits in".

Yes, I suspect that it's on front national's agenda to exterminate jews, the disabled, jehovas witnesses, start up a breeding programme of aryans in norway, invade poland, create more lebensraum and build loads of ROADS so the tanks can move around.

To describe Front National as nazis is to downplay what the German Nazi party did and stood for. Front National are not nazis. To argue that is apart from being intellectually dishonest, just plain ignorant and stupid.

Teamhurtmore - stop preaching at me. You are the one who could do with learning some lessons about honesty in debate

You clearly hate the EU and the Euro. You have (wrongly) been predicting Armageddon for many months. It has not come to pass. Your interpretation of what has happened in the Netherlands is distinctly odd to say the least.

The Euro and the common fiscal policy that goes with it has already failed

It's allowed countries to become severely uncompetitive against fellow Euro nations and taken away any means for members to 'adjust' their competitiveness

That's a failure

Teamhurtmore: I couldn't agree more on your view of the Euro, but I would go so far as to say a fiscal or monetary union can never work.

Juan: with regards to decoupling from the Euro and going back to a country's old currency, or new currency, is very much something that Greece for instance, would benefit from. Germany is enjoying the fruits of having a "cheap" currency in so much as they export lots of fancy stuff like cars whereas Greece with heavy reliance on its tourism. Then again maybe you were saying just that with

"Since the euros people's buying power as gone down, so I propose we go back to the Franc". Because right now in the middle of a global economic crisis, going back to the old money and just devaluate it is quite a good idea.

TJ - you are doing it again, please stop it (ie making flawed assumptions about my beliefs). Happy to debate facts but will simply ignore personal, ill-informed attacks. Correctly the mods dont like it, so best stop now please.

I disagree with the current structure of the ERM on basic economic grounds - it is based on flawed foundations and dishonest politics. That does not make me anti the European Union (different thing altogether but actually on balance something I support) nor anti the concept of a single currency (if structured correctly). Having said that, if pushed to a conclusion I would argue that on basic economic grounds the EU has probably become too large to be create an "optimum currency area'' successfully but the argument is not clear cut.

Happy to quote what I wrote on here 6 months ago - three broad scenarios (no not Armageddon thank you) of which the one that I thought most likely is playing out almost exactly. But never let fact get in the way of a good argument, hey?

Read today's FT for the basic facts on the Netherlands, it IS very signficant. Anyway work to do now.

Teamhurtmore - why don't you actually show some intellectual honesty? all I have to go on is your postings on here as you hide your identity and background

your postings show a deep dislike of the EU and a long series of predictions none of which come true. You post I question here does this again.

I have already read up on what has happened in the Netherlands. A neo fascist minor coalition partner with unashamedly populist policies has refused to sign up to an austerity budget and brought the governemnt down. This coalition was beset with tensions and was never going to last anyway.

Oh - and please stop preaching at me.

A neo fascist minor coalition partner with unashamedly populist policies has refused to sign up to an austerity budget and brought the governemnt down.

So, a 'right wing' party refuses to sign up to a 'right wing' economic policy - back to that dichotomy thing again, aren't we?

There is noting to worry about. The French 'socialist' PM will do exactly the same as Sarko, the Dutch will put together another coalition, and those who planned this little market wobble will clean up on the dead cat bounce.

but Spain... now that's a whole new can of worms...