So that ship collision.....

but where else does US fuel go?

Not US aircraft? I doubt whether any military plane, US or Ukrainian, will be grounded and unable to fly due to this collision, but I guess we will find out soon enough.

Btw the US had suspended all military aid to Ukraine when this dastardly operation was set in motion.

given the circles he moved in

What circles did a playboy in the 1980s move in and how might have this been useful to the KGB? Trump didn't have a government job nor was he in the military, I doubt that the KGB were interested in property development. Nor do I understand how they might enticed him. Trump's commitment to communism has never been obvious as far as I am aware.

As for a Russian citizen (if that’s all he is) being coerced to do this, again absolutely believable. 

Wouldn't it have been easier if he had claimed political asylum when the ship was docked in Scotland? He has now been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter.

Or did he think that the UK authorities would just shrug their shoulders and say "off you go son, and don't do it again"?

Posted by: ernielynch

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As for a Russian citizen (if that’s all he is) being coerced to do this, again absolutely believable. 

Wouldn't it have been easier if he had claimed political asylum when the ship was docked in Scotland? He has now been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter.

Or did he think that the UK authorities would just shrug their shoulders and say "off you go son, and don't do it again"?

Posted by: ernielynch

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but where else does US fuel go?

Not US aircraft? I doubt whether any military plane, US or Ukrainian, will be grounded and unable to fly due to this collision, but I guess we will find out soon enough.

Btw the US had suspended all military aid to Ukraine when this dastardly operation was set in motion.

given the circles he moved in

What circles did a playboy in the 1980s move in and how might have this been useful to the KGB? Trump didn't have a government job nor was he in the military, I doubt that the KGB were interested in property development. Nor do I understand how they might have enticed him. Trump's commitment to communism has never been obvious as far as I am aware.

 

 

Commies are bang into golf, that must be it.

Donald's just a vehicle for unpleasant populism, they might have spotted him as a potentially exploitable gobshite but was never "turned", shirley.

Re: the tanker, I dont see what Putin gets out of annoying the US Air Force, except an annoyed US Air Force. They've got 9 more of these tankers on the books and could readily call in more. But it is a spooky bunch of coincidence.

What circles did a playboy in the 1980s move in and how might have this been useful to the KGB? Trump didn't have a government job nor was he in the military, I doubt that the KGB were interested in property development. Nor do I understand how they might enticed him. Trump's commitment to communism has never been obvious as far as I am aware.

Probably worth having a few business leaders on the books, as it were, just in case. this one has turned out to be quite useful, must be loads who didn't.

And sinking a ship full of jet fuel probably serves next to no military purpose at all, but it does push boundaries, tests reseolve, sows doubt amd mistrust etc.

Not saying I believe any of this, just saying it's possible. Most likely an accident, but it does fit a pattern

Posted by: Lummox

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I absolutely fall into the camp of if It looks like a duck and quacks like one it’s probably a duck!

Me too. It’s a maritime accident. 

You'd be quackers to think otherwise.

Anyway, whether it was or wasn't, that ship is completely goosed now. Someone is going to get a big bill.

One question, for the sailor folk here:

The rebuttal of "ship was aimed at the tanker" seems to be "no it wasn't, because if it was then we would've seen it adjusting its course, it's a die straight line so that means someone simply fell asleep (or whatever)".

But ... it hit the tanker. Therefore, obviously no course correction was needed, which is why we didn't see it, so it could have been deliberate after all.

Am I being thick here?

Look at the movement of Stena Immaculate here:

Virtually nothing. In the last 20 minutes or so it actually drifted slightly more into the path of the Solong and swung broadside on so was an even easier target, and even that movement was barely the length of the ship (assuming those ship icons are to scale).

I still don't think it was deliberate, FWIW!

I very much doubt that the KGB ever had a policy of recruiting stupid people but if they did of what benefit would have Donald Trump been to them in the late 1980s?

its claimed that he was useful for money laundering. When one of the times Trump was facing bankruptcy, the soviet (and eventually Russians) came to his rescue. Trump towers in NY has an unusually high number of ex-Soviet officials and Russian era mafia living there (or at least own apartments there), as its one of the few residences that don't insist on knowing the name the end-owner of the property. It's further alleged that eventually the Russian mafia realised that they could do the same thing by building their own tower blocks using the Trump name (which they'd paid for) as a 'flag of convenience' and thus launder their money through. 

SI was at anchor so wouldn't be moving other than on whatever length that chain is.

IDK maritime law and convention, so just musings of an interested party here but at what point would the two ships realise they were on collision course? That youtube above covers about 2hrs of tracking and the Solong is arrow straight through it. At what point does the SI realise, and start taking action - maybe first by making contact with the SI and then when that fails, moving themselves? If at anchor is someone still on watch, are engines at idle, how long to raise anchor and fire them up to making it move again, etc.

Not meant to suggest any sort of conspiracy, just interested in the How this Happened? 

Im expecting the next few years to be punctuated by cyber attacks and disinformation campaigns, hopefully it remains at that level. 

We're being cyber attacked multiple times a day already, by all sorts of actors - hostile nations, friendly nations, private hackers.....we're already at war, just not the conventional type.

Posted by: andrewh

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You'd be quackers to think otherwise.

Anyway, whether it was or wasn't, that ship is completely goosed now. Someone is going to get a big bill.

I feel deserves recognition 

Posted by: theotherjonv

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If at anchor is someone still on watch

My understanding of this is yes absolutely someone should have been on watch, and when they noticed a whacking great ship coming right at them, should have done something about it

presumably if you were an unscrupulous nation coercing a citizen to do such a thing you use serious threats to family members to stop them just saying screw you and seeking asylum?

Well UK investigators are going have their work cut out, he's clearly not going to talk and tell them anything. Which presumably will be more evidence of a conspiracy.

Btw I had no idea that the KGB needed a money laundering operation in the United States in the 1980s, were the CIA not aware, or were they in on it too?

Anyway it's great to see that the modern day phenomena of conspiracy theories now spreads right across the political spectrum and is no longer solely the preserve of right-wingers. Sometimes a simple conspiracy theory explains everything.

Has the US been providing aviation fuel to the Ukrainian air force? I agree there's no reason for Russia to pick a fight with the US, but where else does US fuel go?

Just thinking aloud

AFAIK, Ukraine doesn't allow any civilian flights. Only military flights and authorised passenger services can use their airspace. If you look at something like FlightRadar24 you can see the effect. Apart from safety this massively reduces the need for jet fuel.

Having said that Ukraine will still need lots of fuel (for comparison one of the UK's (small) aircraft carriers bunkers about 4000 tonnes of jet fuel)

Pre-war it was supplied by Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Romania and Turkiye, but it isn't publicised now.

Fuel is spread around by international agreement (another reason for President Trump to not leave NATO) and there's a complex billing process depending on local pricing under DLA Energy. This includes giving an equal amount of fuel back, rather than $$$ https://www.dla.mil/About-DLA/News/News-Article-View/Article/1731115/dla-energys-international-agreements-program-supports-a-network-of-global-relat/

Well UK investigators are going have their work cut out, he's clearly not going to talk and tell them anything. Which presumably will be more evidence of a conspiracy.

As will Russia's refusal to extradite him for any Court if he's released, because Russia doesn't extradite its citizens

Anyway it's great to see that the modern day phenomena of conspiracy theories now spreads right across the political spectrum and is no longer solely the preserve of right-wingers.

Newsflash, conspiracy theories are just as common on the left as they are on the right. IMF intervening to cause economic crash in the EU, Mossad causing Charlie Hebdo attack. Islamic state beheadings staged by Hollywood. There's even a theory amongst folk who study modern conspiracy theories that suggest its easier to persuade the left because a core feature of the extreme left is that they tend to make clear-cut assumptions about the world, rigidly classifying people, institutions, or events as positive or negative, competent or incompetent, evil or benevolent, and so on.

The only evidence there is about the KGB capturing Trump are statements from a few ex-KGB (you can find a French TV documentary about one of them who now lives in France). and the Steele dossier, and AFAIK, no hard evidence as ever come to light. 

Watchman might have seen the russian freighter coming at them , however there's not much time to start the engine and get the boat moving.

You could get on the radio and sound the fog horn , and hit the collision alarm on your own boat . But a drunk russian seaman asleep at the wheel probably won't wake up.

Big boats run on bunker fuels which needs pre heating prior to injection in the main engine.

So a second engine runs on derv stats first and gets hot , the heat from this heats up the bunker fuels which allows the main engine to start. It's not a quick process.

Newsflash, conspiracy theories are just as common on the left as they are on the right. 

Er, not the modern day ones which I specifically referred to....the conspiracy theories used to contradict facts so as to suit an agenda. The Trump supporting paranoid hard-right had quite a monopoly over the creative art of conspiracy theories.

There have of course always been conspiracies in the world of politics, right through history, there's no need to list them.

Posted by: timba

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As will Russia's refusal to extradite him for any Court if he's released, because Russia doesn't extradite its citizens

Captain was arrested in the UK, why does he need to be extradited? He's already here. 

The Stena vessel would of had someone on anchor watch.

However, they are there to monitor their own position to ensure they don't drag their own anchor.

The COLREGS do not put any requirements on anchored vessels to take action to avoid collision. 

This is because there isn't really anything they could do. When at anchor, the engines will typically be at 30 minutes notice. In that, from the bridge requesting engines, they will be ready in 30 minutes.

In an emergency, you could probably get them a lot quicker but it's not a matter of turning a key.

You also need to pick your anchor up, which take some time. You could the drastic measure of slipping it, but you would still need to take the brakes and preventers off the winch and release the bitter end. Not a routine task and is going to takes a good few minutes at least. 

The watchkeeper on the Stena vessel would probably of seen the approach of the other on the radar and just assumed that they would alter course and go around them. It would of only taken a small alteration course and nothing would of happened.

It was a terrible accident and probably involved incompetence, complacency, poor management but it's not a deliberate act.

Apparently they were doing 16 knots, so 5 minutes before the collision they were still 1.5 miles away, pretty close for ships but not in those busy waters, where things at pretty tight and there is a windfarm restricting options. 

My guess is that they would of only got really worried when 1/2 mile away, which would give you less than 2 minutes to do anything.

Captain was arrested in the UK, why does he need to be extradited? He's already here. 

I assume timba means if he is released and allowed to travel back to Russia.

Although if this was indeed an undercover operation it will presumably be classified as terrorism, I assume that terrorist suspects are not allowed to travel back to countries with which the UK has no extradition treaties.

Posted by: gobuchul

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you would still need to take the brakes and preventers off the winch and release the bitter end

I learned something new today 🙂

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot#Bitter_end

The other simple fact that rules out a deliberate act, how would they know the Stena vessel would be anchored?

A ship doesn't really plan to go to anchor. They have anchored off the entrance as they have arrived a little early and their berth isn't available yet, or they have arrived late and missed their slot. It's dead time and in effect costs money as the ship isn't really achieving anything. 

Going to anchor will be a call made by the Master 0n the day, depending on the circumstances.  

Just rereading this again, whatever software ships use to chart a dead straight course, despite the effects of winds and tides, could revolutionise how threads on the forum develop.

Posted by: Matthew Hornby

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Posted by: timba

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As will Russia's refusal to extradite him for any Court if he's released, because Russia doesn't extradite its citizens

Captain was arrested in the UK, why does he need to be extradited? He's already here. 

Because, unless the police manage an exceptionally quick investigation on a complex seafaring matter they are likely to have not come across in their careers and then get a charging decision from CPS, the captain will be getting bail. Whilst you can impose restrictions; surrender of passport, daily reporting, there is a good chance the captain could have it on his toes whenever he feels like it.

Posted by: gobuchul

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The other simple fact that rules out a deliberate act, how would they know the Stena vessel would be anchored?

A ship doesn't really plan to go to anchor. They have anchored off the entrance as they have arrived a little early and their berth isn't available yet, or they have arrived late and missed their slot. It's dead time and in effect costs money as the ship isn't really achieving anything. 

Going to anchor will be a call made by the Master 0n the day, depending on the circumstances.  

That seems easy to answer.

a) The video above shows about 2 hours of time. I don't know when SI arrived at the anchorage, might've been there for ages before that? Anyway: Solong fire up the engines, aim at SI, 10 minutes later they realise SI isn't moving, bonus, this is easier than we thought!

b) They weren't aiming at SI specifically, just aiming to hit any juicy target to cause chaos & disruption (see also: cutting cables)

c) There's an inside man on the SI 

d) They were having intel fed back from a drone disguised as a seagull

Conspiracy theories are fun.

Posted by: ernielynch

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Although if this was indeed an undercover operation it will presumably be classified as terrorism

Indeed it would. But baseless speculation is pretty bad too.

So as it goes, a cargo ship, that has followed the same route 20+ times recently, and in heavy fog, clearly without anyone on lookout or on the bridge, somehow knew that this particular ship, along with its manifest, was going to anchor up at a specific time and place, and decided just to ram into it, on the orders of Putin.

Seems baseless speculation can only be superseded by wild speculation. But mind you these conspiracy nutters will believe anything.

Captain was arrested in the UK, why does he need to be extradited? He's already here.

What ernie says.

The Captain/Master is in custody here, but the investigation(s) will be carried out by accident investigators from the US, Portugal and UK. UK police won't have that sort of expertise

There isn't a guarantee that he'll remain in custody, especially as few seem to be thinking of terrorism, that'll be for the lawyers and courts

crossed with kilo

Posted by: Steve

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Just rereading this again, whatever software ships use to chart a dead straight course, despite the effects of winds and tides, could revolutionise how threads on the forum develop.

I dunno, many folk navigate that way through threads on here as it is.

Posted by: dyna-ti

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Seems baseless speculation can only be superseded by wild speculation.

It's when you combine the two that things get fun.

Solong was a feeder ship that followed a fairly regular route.

She had transited through that area multiple times on her route from Grangemouth in Scotland.

Why suddenly decide to do that on that day?

There was a nice shiny windfarm a short distance away, you want to cause damage to infrastructure, then go careering like a bowling ball through that, cause a lot more damage than 1 ship and wouldn't set fire to your own ship in the process. 

It was an accident, these things happen for a lot of reasons.

Piper Alpha happened during the Coldest of Cold Wars. Was that Soviet agents?

Posted by: ernielynch

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Captain was arrested in the UK, why does he need to be extradited? He's already here. 

I assume timba means if he is released and allowed to travel back to Russia.

Although if this was indeed an undercover operation it will presumably be classified as terrorism, I assume that terrorist suspects are not allowed to travel back to countries with which the UK has no extradition treaties.

I don't think he'll even be allowed to leave the UK if he gets as far as a charge of gross negligence manslaughter.  Courts deal regularly with foreign nationals accused of crimes.

Published: 12:31 13/03/2025

EAST RIDING OF YORKSHIRE

Following on from the collision between a tanker and cargo vessel in the North Sea, off the coast of Grimsby, on Monday, 10 March, the 59-year-old man arrested remains in police custody.

Detective Chief Superintendent Craig Nicholson said: “An extension has been granted by the Magistrates’ Court to detain the man in custody for a further 36-hours.

“Detectives are continuing to question him following his arrest on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter in connection with the collision.

https://www.humberside.police.uk/news/humberside/news/news/25/mar/custody-extension-granted-in-north-sea-vessel-collision-investigation/

This is just for questioning and investigation; remand in custody or bail, etc. is yet to be decided

Posted by: gobuchul

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Piper Alpha happened during the Coldest of Cold Wars. Was that Soviet agents?

Or if we go back to last month was a cargo ship hitting one of the yanks carriers an hostile act?

I dont think it is unreasonable to raise an eyebrow when reading a ship captained by a Russian has hit a ship carrying military supplies but even skipping over trumps love of putin a couple of minutes reflection should lower the eyebrow.

Going back to TiReds comment about the tracks for those ships "accidently" taking out cables I think it is reasonable to look at those and conclude enemy action.

This one of someone repeating a route they have done several times and proceeding in a straight line for hundreds of miles to hit a jet fuel tanker is somewhat improbable. If just on the grounds that if I had been given the orders I would be "sorry boss I was right in line with them and somehow they shifted so I didnt slam straight into them. Better luck next time eh, maybe you should send someone more suicidal, sorry, skilled?"

Posted by: ernielynch

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Trump's commitment to communism has never been obvious as far as I am aware.

Remind me, how long has Russia not been a Communist state?

Since the KGB ceased to exist.

Posted by: ampthill

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Ernst Russ

Hmmm... 🤨 

Posted by: gobuchul

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Piper Alpha happened during the Coldest of Cold Wars. Was that Soviet agents?

Can we have a separate thread perhaps?

Posted by: reeksy

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Posted by: ampthill

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Ernst Russ

Hmmm... 🤨 

Makes you think 🤔 

So how does this conspiracy work on the bridge

The Captain plots a course to hit the tanker. Does he then tell everyone else to leave the bridge? Or is everyone on the bridge committed to ramming a tanker?

Well hopefully this statement from the MAIB will clear things up for the conspiracy nut jobs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-on-the-collision-between-solong-and-stena-immaculate

"From the initial enquiries made it is known that Solong frequently travelled between Grangemouth and Rotterdam and regularly used the route it took on the day of the collision. On Monday morning at 0130 UTC, Solong passed to the east of the Longstone lighthouse and altered course onto a heading of approximately 150° at a speed of about 16.4 knots. At 0947 UTC it struck the Stena Immaculate that was at anchor off the entrance to the River Humber. 36 crew from both vessels were recovered but tragically one member of crew from Solong remains unaccounted for."

IF, and this is a massive "if", this was somehow a deliberate act by the captain executing it would be relatively simple.

He could be supplied with SI's position and that it had anchored. He would approve the navigation plan to get very close to that anchorage, and very easily calculate ETA at that location.

Goes to the bridge a wee while before, and tells the Officer on watch to take a break (which they have no hesitation in doing!).

There would possibly be a helmsman/lookout on the bridge also, but they could easily be sent off on another task.

One man bridge operation during daylight is quite normal.

Makes adjustments to course to create the collision.

All the above didn't happen. A slack Officer of the Watch was lazy and incompetent.

Presumably we’ll have voice recordings of the bridge?

All the above didn't happen

If it did I am sure that the non Russian crew will be singing like canaries to investigators.

Unless they were all recruited by the KGB in the late 1980s?

Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence

I’m with Hanlon. 

Voice recording, yes, unless the system was shut down, which would be a huge red flag to the investigators.

All ships now have a black box, the Voyage Data Recorder:

Bridge voice

Radio messages

Position course and speed

Radar imagery

ECDIS data (navigtion system)

Echo sounder

Watertight doors open/closed.

And a bunch of other stuff too.  Plenty for the investigators to put together a good case for poor vessel management.

Apparently it was in thick fog. So in restricted visibility, you would expect the Master and the officer of the watch to be on the bridge, with a lookout posted.

The lookout was posted on the forecastle and he's the poor bugger that is missing.

It's a very strange accident but it's an accident none the less.

@seadog101 - Yes he could have known where the SI was but he couldn't of known that they would be going to anchor right on their usual route between Grangemouth and Rotterdam.

And was the Captain even on the bridge at the time or even on shift. Theres also a possibility he was off shift and in his cabin sleeping, but being the master of the vessel is the one ultimately in charge.

If then he wasn't on shift, the charge of manslaughter is just an academic one*, and will possibly be dropped

*No idea to what the actual maritime law is on that.

If the Solong was doing 16 it's in thick fog that's another massive howler.

As for being at Anchor, with the proximity of other stationary ships it must have been a designated anchorage area. Always clearly marked on charts and ECDIS systems. So planning a route through that area was clearly wrong.

If then he wasn't on shift, the charge of manslaughter is just an academic one*, and will possibly be dropped

Surely manslaughter is just one charge in a list of possible charges? I am assuming that if the missing crew member was found alive and well the captain would still be in a spot of trouble for ramming his large ship into a stationery tanker.

The Master is required to be on the bridge in fog.

The SI wasn't in a designated anchorage, however the choice of routing by the Solong, through the approaches to the Humber seem a strange choice? But they repeatedly have chosen it?