But how do people arive at what seems a totally arbitrary figure. How is 1 hour good 2 hours bad.
Indeed. We have technology times after school, but it's not rigid. After all, things need to come to a conclusion - you wouldn't want someone to turn your film off 10 mins before the end would you? If they've had a hard or busy day they get more, if it's a nice day and they need a run about they get less.
In most things we try to give them as much control as we can, but we just point out what time it is and what the rules are. Then they decide if they want to stick to the rules or not - and we show how we feel when they don't. Of course I know it's early days, but we are trying to do groundwork for the teenage years. I've no idea how we'll get on, but last night they tidied their room on their own without being asked. I think it helps that our own room is currently a shit heap, and they have a sense of pride in doing better than their parents.
But how do people arive at what seems a totally arbitrary figure.
If you don't impose an arbitrary figure then the lad will be up at 3am playing Minecraft and falling asleep in lessons.
And at what age do you start passing elements of control over to children and let them start making their own decisions about such things ?
Dunno but at 46 I can't be trusted to put my phone down and get on with something I ought to be doing. So I'm thinking a lot older than 13.
I can sympathise with the OP completely, I too have a 13 year old and they are a living hell. I was told when our youngest was born and we're dealing with the whole newborn nightmare that "teenagers are harder" and I scoffed as I was cleaning poo out of my daughter's hair that that simply wasn't possible, but I'm starting to think they're right.
The worst part is that my Wife and I don't agree, so his problems quickly create our problems.
In short, my Wife thinks I'm a reactionary, Ogre who hates him because he's just doing normal teen stuff.
Whereas I think he's a lazy, narcissistic and more than anything else a SPOILED brat, and we should be saying "Come on now Babe" to the 4 year old and shouting "stop doing that!" to the 13 year old and not the other way around.
He will routinely "I can't believe someone would say that to a CHILD!" if an adult ever say anything negative to him, or any other kid, because in 2018 it seems Children know best and we should only encourage them in whatever their under developed brain thinks they should do that very moment.
Chores? To given an example I've started to ask him to take his plate out after dinner and he goes full Ronnie Pickering. We argued the other day because, with a terrible cold an incredibly sore back I cooked his lunch for him and sat down again before the pain made me weep. "Dad, there's no forks!" in a tone you might use to a subordinate who's only, well-paid, job was to ensure there was always a clean, dry fork for you to use at any given moment, bit my tongue, "you'll have to wash one mate" and get the full Ronnie Pickering - "they're all the way at the bottom of the washing bowl - I'll use a spoon then!" I swore (naughty me) and stomped out to the kitchen, to find him throwing around the crockery with gay abandon to get to a fork "stop that" more Ronnie Pickering, so a grasped hold of his wrist - now I will concede that whilst the OP and his son about par, My Son and I are not, if he tried to push me against a wall I'm not sure I'd notice. I washed a fork for him and sent him on his way, as usual muttering words under his breath he won't say out loud.
A few hours later and I'm being laid into by my wife for threatening and / or assaulting him and no amount of calm, measured explanation of the true turn of events will persuade her that I'm not some kind of madman who attacks kids for asking, politely, where the forks are.
I am the pantomime villain at home, we agree, as a couple when the kids are in bed things like screen time limits, access limits, bedtimes, home times, how and when they'll do homework, chores (ha ha), but rather than hard and fast rules that someone could get used to and accept, they're completely fluid things to be constantly negotiated, the good news always coming from my Wife, but if she thinks it's a bad idea to allow him unlimited, unrestricted access to the internet all night , it's me that has to give the bad news.
They have little, whispered meetings about how they're going to tell me things, if at all, and how best to 'deal with Dad' so whatever credibility I had left at home is now completely eroded.
I'm particularly enjoying the build up to Christmas. A few months ago he came home very excited that "everyone" was going on a very expensive Welsh Language trip to Euro Disney, it was my responsibility as Head Finance Ogre to decide if we could afford it, or, to put it more accurately, HOW we were going to afford it, and more importantly how if the sacrifices we'd have to make down the road to pay for it, however mild seemed unpleasant it would be my fault. So, I did, under the firm condition that this very expensive trip that EVERYONE was going on (everyone in this case being 30 kids out of around 600) would be his Christmas Present "oh, but we can get him a few stocking fillers can't we?" of course we can, not even this Finance Ogre could leave the kid empty handed on Christmas Day. He's currently got ever so slightly more for Christmas than his not-going-to-Euro-Disney sister and my Wife is almost beside herself because I sold his old Bike that he's grown out of (used around 4/5 times in 2 years) and haven't replaced it immediately with a more expensive one that simply won't turn a wheel until conditions are warm, dry and sunny.
Since starting High School last Sept, which we hoped would help, but only made things worse, he was:
Been put in isolated for punching a boy who was giving him a hard time (I only add this for the sake of a list as I wasn't overly bothered).
Been given an ABSO by the local library, and visited at home by the Police to explain if he does it again, he'll have to visit the station for a word with the Chief Inspector.
Been banned from the local Youth Club.
Slashed the seats on our Dining Room chairs, because we dared to tell him off.
Started 3/4 very small fires at home. Because 'bored'
Invited several members of his class to our house after school whilst we were in work, even though he was expressly told not to. We don't know how many or how often this happened, but to give an example of how well known this was, I was working from home one day when 3 kids, who aren't mine, let themselves into my house without knocking and started up the stairs to his room, he wasn't even home.
He, along with some, if not all of his group of friends has identified as every point on the LBGTQXYZ% spectrum, which was a concern before we knew it wasn't an instant invitation for bullying these days, but fashionable thing to do, but him being him, this escalated to him DMing with Paedophiles. with his friends for fun, and wouldn't accept that this was in any way a dangerous thing to do.
I wanted, when he turned 13 to loosen the reigns slightly with the Web, I understand that kids these days are hugely more sexulized than we were, Hedge porn was hard to find and usually softcore, these days double fisting is always a few key strokes away and he's going to want to see porn, but he just can't be trusted not to take things to the extreme the moment he's given some freedom, he's just not mature enough to self-moderate at the moment.
So I've had his mobile for a month after the DM thing, I've built him a whole new iCloud profile, killed the old one, his PC is about as secure as you'd find in GCHQ, all his SM accounts are dead, and he can't open new ones. Which sounds terrible, but then I never thought I'd have to say "I need to do this because you were sexting with Paedophiles". He gets it back tonight, and I don't know if he knows he won't be able to access Insta, SnapChat etc, he knows he's not allowed on them, but whether he knows he CAN'T access them (which is quite different) I don't know - I expect to receive a million requests for apps he's not allowed daily, and my Wife negotiating on his behalf.
I am yet to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Next time he threatens you physically, punch him hard and square on the nose.
Couldn't physically do this, even if mine went psycho and threatened me.
I’ve no idea how we’ll get on, but last night they tidied their room on their own without being asked.
My eldest is 26 and we have never achieved this. Give yourself and the Mrs a pat on the back MG you must be doing something right 👍
If you don’t impose an arbitrary figure then the lad will be up at 3am playing Minecraft and falling asleep in lessons.
The aim is for the kid to think 'shit, it's 12, I need to get to sleep'. Of course younger kids will never do this, but at some point the aim is to bring an adult viewpoint into it. A sense of responsibility. I admit it's a pretty lofty goal but personal responsibility is always the first thing to try in everything, and we manage the consequences for failure.
Bloody hell P-Jay, I'd go out for milk and never come back.
P-Jay that sounds shit, and it sounds like you are fighting a lone battle. It's hard to know what to say when both parents aren't agreeing.
Sounds to me like the top priority by far is to agree an approach with your Mrs. Even if it means building an unassailable case with evidence and presenting it around things like paedo DMing.
Jesus ****ing christ P-Jay.
All the best yeah, maybe some of you ought to arrange a group ride to blow off steam together?
Sounds to me like the top priority by far is to agree an approach with your Mrs. Even if it means building an unassailable case with evidence and presenting it around things like paedo DMing.
If she needs a typed up report, she needs her head examined herself. She would surely know about all of these individual events?
Pjay, not sure what to say other than that's a horrid situation. I hope you find a way through it.
P-Jay
Jesus f*cking christ.
You have more resolve than me. Surely, even with your own children then comes a point where enough is enough?
My mate is going through something very similar, not got any direct experience as I don't have kids but he vented last time we caught up.
He's said he's seeing very positive results from both taking up a new shared hobby which happens to be mountain biking. Gets them out of the battleground and onto neutral territory where they can be mates rather than just seeing each other as fighting partners. Think it's pretty important to both be starting from scratch to share it rather than something you're already good at.
The worst part is that my Wife and I don’t agree
IANAP, but I'd hazard this is the root of the problem. The two of you need to present a united front, anything else is gravy.
If I were you, I'd have a talk to the missus at a time where neither of you are angry / emotional and try and establish some common ground. Then stick to it. If the kids know they can play one against the other, they will relentlessly (I know I did), and they've got you over a barrel.
My eldest is 26 and we have never achieved this. Give yourself and the Mrs a pat on the back MG you must be doing something right.
Me and my wife live in apartment inside what is essentially students halls for professionals. I have a mate here who is a competent programmer working for a good company, but he is 7 years younger than me.
Sometimes I really feel like I'm his dad or something, I'll go round and knock to see how he's doing and I end up telling him off because his place is a complete ****ing shithead. How does he expect to bring a woman back etc etc.
I took him out to the Alps this year mtbing, he slept through his alarm for 30 straight minutes with it going off constantly and I was continually schooling him on how to get organized for a ride.
He's a good lad though who can hold an interesting conversatioation, so I put up with it in the hope I can make him a bit more manly/decisive hahah.
Jesus **** christ P-Jay.
+100. Whatever rubbish life throws at me in the future I'll think of you and things will instantly seem better. Just hang in there, it's got to get better, same for you OP.
Good grief PJ, I wish I could help with that. Stop doing things for him will you please, don't give in. And this...
the good news always coming from my Wife, but if she thinks it’s a bad idea to allow him unlimited, unrestricted access to the internet all night , it’s me that has to give the bad news.
You REALLY need to change that. You both need to be on common ground, not good vs evil. I'm sorry to comment on your circumstances but I'd suggest talking this through with your wife and coming to a mutual agreement regrading delivery.
But how do people arive at what seems a totally arbitrary figure. How is 1 hour good 2 hours bad.
It was arbitrary, based on the fact we feel that a 6yo and a 9yo staring at a screen continuously for more than an hour cannot be good for them - and their needs to be some kind of rule. Of course there is flexibility e.g. a movie at the weekend, but this relates to when they want to sit on their iPads. We like to encourage other activities - toys, reading, painting, drawing, playing, garden, sport.
The Mon-Weds no tech rule is there to enforce a pattern of homework & music practise after school on weekdays without the tech distraction. On Thursdays and Friday we would allow the Tech Hour only if the homework & music practise is done first, although there is a no Tech after 7pm rule 7 days a week for pre- bedtime arrangements.
We don't allow internet capable tech upstairs in their rooms, with the exception of the Mac in my office within which each has an age related login and is only allowed to be used for School-set homework that requires a computer.
For us this pattern has been established from a young age, and of course I expect it to be "the norm" as they grow up. No doubt the forthcoming teenage will apply a challenge to that!
Thanks for everyone expletive laden sympathy, I never thought my little rant and massive vent would produce such a response.
Even though this is anonymous I should say, my list was a concentrated list of his screw-ups over a difficult 2 year period. I should have added about the time he rode across town to help his Granddad who was having a row of TIAs post heart surgery, arranged to get him to A&E and stayed with him for hours, when things were very grim, until we could get there or the time he stayed with me in A&E when I had Pneumonia. They squabble over the TV a lot and argue, but he loves his little Sister totally. The last 2 years have been hard, we're not as close as we were and that really sucks, he used to be a mate of mine, now whilst I always love him, sometimes I don't like him. I think I'm hard working and always try to think of others, especially my family first, but he's so wrapped up in himself he doesn't seem to care how his actions effect the rest of us, but he's 13, I don't know of many selfless 13 year olds.
My Wife and I do disagree and occasionally argue over him, I think the fundamental problem is that despite a lifetime of being known as the calm guy who never loses his temper and raises his voice, I seem to be constantly on edge in regards to him and I do over react sometimes, I don't know if that was caused by my Wife always defending him, or vice versa. It does annoy me when whenever he screws up, she will immediately start mitigating, "oh he was caught in a bad crowd" which is rarely true.
I supposed I'm trying to say that, in a Social Media age, it's easy to think that everyone else's kids are these perfect little mini adults who are going to change the world for the better even more than they do now when they're grown up and how their parents thank the starts for every moment they're together, but I think most parents really don't like their teenagers from time to time.
It was arbitrary, based on the fact we feel that a 6yo and a 9yo staring at a screen continuously for more than an hour cannot be good for them – and their needs to be some kind of rule. Of course there is flexibility e.g. a movie at the weekend, but this relates to when they want to sit on their iPads. We like to encourage other activities – toys, reading, painting, drawing, playing, garden, sport.
The Mon-Weds no tech rule is there to enforce a pattern of homework & music practise after school on weekdays without the tech distraction. On Thursdays and Friday we would allow the Tech Hour only if the homework & music practise is done first, although there is a no Tech after 7pm rule 7 days a week for pre- bedtime arrangements.
We don’t allow internet capable tech upstairs in their rooms, with the exception of the Mac in my office within which each has an age related login and is only allowed to be used for School-set homework that requires a computer.
For us this pattern has been established from a young age, and of course I expect it to be “the norm” as they grow up. No doubt the forthcoming teenage will apply a challenge to that!
That's pretty much how we'll be going and we've long since accepted that the only way to make it happen without resentment is to enforce it from day one so they don't realize there's any other way. I appreciate this is very easy now and is going to become very difficult in future.
Hey PJ, Its sounds as though your boy is a great little chap trying to grow amongst a midst of confusing messages and choices.
I know my situation is different, but one thing me and Mrs K have always done if troubling issues loom is to sit down together when they are not there / in bed and talk through how we'd both deal with it, before we have to. We often start with differing opinions & answers about the issue, but do end up with an agreed plan.
I will say that when I was 12/13 I was a confused angry arsehole that drove my parents mad. Although I believe some of their choices did not help my situation, today I try to look at my kids perspective using my experience. All I've ever wanted was my own children that love their parents as I'm sure yours do, but I never did with mine. I'm not perfect, I have lost it, raised my voice and demonstrated some of the personality traits my own parents did, but after I've calmed down I've cried (out of sight) about the way I've acted in front of them, then later sat down with them, said sorry and explained my actions as incorrect but why they materialised.
In short this is nearly always ends up as "Daddy got cross because... ...and I'm sorry I shouted" followed by "but you understand what you did wasn't right either..". I don't know if this is right or wrong, but we always end up in a big hug, even if there is a punishment still to serve. I once shared cleaning the bathroom with Jnr because we both agreed I was as wrong as he was after misunderstanding him, seemed only fair.
None of us are perfect, its a hard job and we all do our best in different ways.
Fascinating post P-Jay. I went the entire spectrum from thinking you were the cause of all the issues, to thinking it was an impossible situation that nobody could deal with, with several points in between. I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle. Whatever, good luck!
Regarding screen time, it's important to recognise that there is screen time and screen time. Playing mindless Toca games on a tablet is one thing, but then trying to build something and problem solve in Minecraft multiplayer with a sibling, that's quite different. You can manage your kids' experience online when they are young. Even older kids on multiplayer shooters can be encouraged to be constructive and get something out of it. My wife is currently advising 6th formers about university applications. When asked about hobbies some of them say 'nothing' and then they say they spend their time gaming online. Well, turns out some of them run clans or whatever they are called these days and they take their gaming as seriously as anyone takes their football or hockey and apart from the physical aspect they acquire the same kinds of life skills and develop the same kinds of interpersonal relationships.
Our kids get kicked off electronics at 7pm, but then if we are watching telly we often let them watch too. Because even if it's repeats of Castle, grown up shows are loaded with things to teach little kids about how the adult world works. My 9yo will watch intently and ask stuff like 'so why did he kill her?' and we get to explain a bit about abusive relationships or something...! Dr Who is also a good opportunity to learn - after the Rosa Parks episode we had a long chat about racism, civil rights and the characters in the show. The kids, little as they are, love dipping a toe into the adult world and are fascinated. See also Death in Paradise repeats on Netflix.
See also Death in Paradise repeats on Netflix.
I’m ringing childline
Only a matter of time before Molgrips is found murdered under mysterious circumstances and the cops are baffled.
Meanwhile, his kids are enjoying unfettered Xbox access.
Our kids get kicked off electronics at 7pm,
they decide if they want to stick to the rules or not
Hmmm.
they decide if they want to stick to the rules or not
As far as I'm concerned, they came make there own rules up when they're over 18 and living somewhere other than our house...
...communicated in the nicest possible way.
Hmmm.
I think you need to read the next bit.
I think you need to read the next bit.
I did, it doesn't change or caveat the meaning of the first bit at all.
As far as I’m concerned, they came make there own rules up when they’re over 18 and living somewhere other than our house…
…communicated in the nicest possible way.
My concern is if we don't impose sensible and consistent rules they won't ever be in a position to afford their own house.
I did, it doesn’t change the meaning of the first bit at all or even caveat it.
It's the same thing - we make them stop, but not by ordering them to. At least, not usually. The aim is to make them understand what's reasonable behaviour, and to want them to be reasonable.
It works for now, who knows what'll happen in 5 years time of course.
The aim is to make them understand what’s reasonable behaviour, and to want them to be reasonable.
It works for now, who knows what’ll happen in 5 years time of course.\
This is essentially my approach hence the word "education" in my post. I hope they learn why things are right and wrong and grow up to be able to make their own choices sensibly.
Our kids get kicked off electronics at 7pm,
we make them stop
they decide if they want to stick to the rules or not
Hmmmm.
You'll have to do more than hmm, do you have a contribution regarding parenting?
Sounds awful but his lack of respect for you likely comes from his mother.
The next time he starts up start recording it and if he threatens you again call the police and use the recording as evidence. The mother will side with him and say its your fault.
Personally I'd go for the "pull a knife on me and I'll beat the *&*& out of you" approach. But i appreciate the difficult situation you're in.
Pjay - teenagers are a raging pile of chemicals which would cause most adults to.become catatonic if they ever experienced it. It's not you it's them. They need structure and boundaries because they literally cannot do it for themselves. Their brains just aren't there yet. The regulatory systems of the brain ( the executive funcitons) are not developed. That's what adults are there for. Having said that, the extreme nature of his disregulation, particularly the slashing of chairs and fires is a very big red flag and needs sorting, possibly professionally. Your wife is being his friend leaving you to be the parent. That's not fair on you or him. See above re needing adults. You two need to sort that.AAbout the lunch thing - choices. If there are no forks, you can eat with your fingers, a spoon, or wash a fork, your choice. Give them control over the things that they are mature enough to deal with.
To the OP. The similarity to pjay is apparent. Your ex is allowing your son to run his own life, being his friend and not setting boundaries. You are doing the opposite, which he desperately needs but being a raging pile of chemicals he hates.
The knife thing? That is a giant red flag and needs sorting, maybe professionally. If not for your safety then for his. He might lose control and do that to someone who doesn't have your restraint.
Give them control over the things that they are mature enough to deal with.
This is what I've been trying to say. People get upset when they feel they don't have control.
To the OP, I’m not the best judge as I’m in the fortunate position of having two daughters who have been pretty straight forward to bring up. However, it sounds to me as though your son could have a whole heap of anger issues from the separation of his parents, quite possibly fuelled by your ex. Not wishing to come across as a hand wringing lefty, but is it worth looking into some counselling for him?
Give them control over the things that they are mature enough to deal with.
Like washing a fork?
"Dad, there's no clean forks!"
"No problem son, if you do the washing up there will be plenty!"
Like washing a fork
Not exactly. That's not a choice that's a suggestion. Or to a teenager, an order from a facist authoritarian joy-killer. They don't call being a teenager a mental illness for nothing.
The point is to give them agency over the things which it is safe and reasonable to. That'll vary with the teenager. But given them a range of options, from wash a fork to use a dirty one to use a spoon or spatula or hands. Let them choose and live with the outcome. If they get sick from using a dirty fork they won't do it again. If they make a mess eating with their hands they clean it up. If it makes mealtimes like living in a zoo live with it, it only lasts a few years
Parent like an economist/manager with incentives and nudging? Positive reinforcement always works better. Let them make some mistakes.
Dont rule out mental health. It’s a massive issue for young people.
Why ban school friends without supervision? That shows lack of trust?
Youth theatre? I’m biased but I’ve seen it turn surly weans into focused organised leaders and team members too. The families notice too.
FWIW when Boy2 badmouthed his mum and raised a stick to her I verbally crucified him. I impressed myself with the excoriation I gave him- full flow, varied tone, raised voice, sotto voce and everything in between -the whole nine yards.
And then I removed his bedroom door. He was 15 at the time.
He got it back about a fortnight later. He had to re-fit it himself.
Actions have consequences. People (of all ages) don't necessarily understand this but it is the way of the world and if they don't/ can't get this then things may well be much worse for them later on in life.
It isn't easy. As a teacher of teenage boys and a parent of one it can be a pain in the ass, and ours only has one set of rules. We do the no technology upstairs (where the bedrooms are) and follow this ourselves so there is no 'but you do' comeback. Had all the screentime issues and screams/threats. The thing which calmed hime down I think was when he screwed up royally. A few years ago he ran up a $AUD 1800 bill on our credit card on an online game (legalised gaming aimed at kids). He lost his computer for 6 months, and had to pay us back out of his pamphlet round money/christmas birthday money etc. Took him almost a year but he did. I didn't chase the debt with the company as I had the view he'd run it up, he had to pay (we didn't know he had the credit card number and took eyes off the ball over a week). We now occaisionly take the modem and lock it in the car, means no netflix or internet for us, pain in the ass but managable).
Better he is shit at home and great away from home than the other way around (although hard), which ours luckily have been. Bastards though they can be (lovable ones at times), we hardly ever have had issues at school and never major ones.
OP - Your kid needs help. I know I don't know him or your situation beyond what you've described but it just sounds horribly familiar to an ex-friend who acted in a similar way with his folks. Ended up in and out of bother with the police - stealing a chainsaw from a lumber yard all the way up to regularly beating the crap out his girlfriend. He had a lot of very obvious underlying issues and hated his folks for one reason or another.
You need to talk to him and find out what it is thats bothering him, it could be anything from anger at the breakup to your ex excouraging him so you eventually just disappear from the scene. Either way something sure isn't right. And being the even worse guy by getting him a visit from the police or punching him in the face is just going to get you off the scene even quicker.
P-Jay - That's a whole other level of WTF right there. I take it you have talked to him to try and figure out why he would do that? Serious or not (in intent) that's something that can't be brushed aside.
Wish I could say something reassuring to you both but I'm all out of ideas. Best of luck is the best I can manage.
We got a dog (a rescue greyhound) which helped somewhat.
P-Jay . How do live with that attitude in your house? IANAP ,but by christ .. your wages you earn using your body and brain have paid for the nice warm dry house he lives in . I am going to guess he still gets an allowance , so gets paid for being rude , and does somewhere next to nothing round the house to help out, apart from throw his pants and sox on the floor waiting for the laundry faiiry to collect them.
I would opt out, you made him lunch , but he was unwilling to spend 20 seconds in the kitchen finding a fork, as the washing bowl was " too deep", sorry petal, That would be the very last time I did anything for him. The magic laundry fairy would fail to appear , clean dry clothes would not be available on demand .
Pocket money .- on your bike son .
Dinner on the table , nice hot food. I would cook for myself and not him .
Strip beds , put bedding in machine but let him work out how to dry them and put the ensemble back together.
A few lads at school telling him he stinks of BO will certainly have an effect