[Closed] So did we break the law today?? Car removal content.

Yes you did break the law and how do you know you did no harm? He might have been an idiot for parking there but I suspect you could have knocked on a few doors to find out whos it was before dragging it about.

Walked half the street knocking, usual helpful responses. They know what we're on with yet the ejit still parks there. The car was most certainly not damaged as it was out of gear and the strap attached to his tow bar, lifted up and wheeled back on the front wheels. It would have looked far worse had I run the muckshift past it all day!!! Are we expected to stand a machine and driver at 24 an hr, 3 lorries and drivers and two site staff till he decides to come up and move it??

And as he drives off he finds out the hydraulic pipes for the brakes have been severed in the process of moving it...

Ooo, forum legal experts' debate. What law was that then coffeeking?

Are we expected to stand a machine and driver at 24 an hr, 3 lorries and drivers and two site staff till he decides to come up and move it??

Legally, yes, at which point I think you'd be fine to call the police as it probably falls under obstruction laws IIRC (especially if there's one of your vehicles already in the area being worked on).

It's tampering with a motor vehicle, good for 6 months max IIRC? But so is putting leaflets under the windscreen, so I'm not sure how likely you are to get prosecuted. If it wasn't obvious that you needed access (to someone who isn't building there etc) then I'd say you're out of order and I'd go more than mental at you. If I'd cheekily parked there knowing it was an active building site I'd expect something to happen.

(I'm not a legal eagle, just putting 2 and 2 together - I know it's illegal to park in front of someone's drive and block them in (obstruction) and I know it's illegal to tamper with a vehicle, section 25 of the RTA IIRC?).

Despite what the law/stw says, you were right. We need more of no nonsense action in this world! Good on you.

And as he drives off he finds out the hydraulic pipes for the brakes have been severed in the process of moving it...

Ah, yes of course. We all know how brake pipes are prone to severing every time a car moves....

🙄

The car was most certainly not damaged as it was out of gear and the strap attached to his tow bar, lifted up and wheeled back on the front wheels

I would have waited til there were no witnesses and then just pushed it out the way with the bucket.. live by the sword die by the sword and all that..

Ah, yes of course. We all know how brake pipes are prone to severing every time a car moves....

Indeed, but you might have damaged the tow bar by loading it in the opposite direction to its normal loading (upward) and then weakened it for next time it's passing a bus full of primary school children with a 1.5 ton trailer on the back....

Despite what the law/stw says, you were right. We need more of no nonsense action in this world! Good on you.

That woudl be taking the law into your own hands, which is great when the person doing it has common sense and forethought. Unfortunately, 50% of the population have a below average IQ and sod all common sense, unable to comprehend the possible failure modes and complications of what they've done.

Indeed, but you might have damaged the tow bar by loading it in the opposite direction to its normal loading (upward) and then weakened it for next time it's passing a bus full of primary school children with a 1.5 ton trailer on the back....

But surely the onus is on the driver of said vehicle to check that the towbar is in a secure, safe condition to be used before he attatches anything to it?

😉

tow bars normally have a limit of 75kg for vertical load - lifting the car up by one is probably very bad as you've probably put a 700kg static load on it.

If it were my car I'd be taking it to a garage for an inspection and sending you the bill.

Having said that I'd also understand you beign pee'd off and wouldn't have parked there in the first place.

Good on you, bet he doesnt park there again 😆

I know it's illegal to park in front of someone's drive and block them in (obstruction)...

No it's not 😯

We need to know what model of car it was now so that we can establish if it can legally tow a 1.5 ton trailer 😉

And we have a "won't someone please think of the children" post.

Thread closed.

At the end of it all, you have 3 witnesses to confirm that he parked it where he found it on his return and he would appear to be a little confused about where he thought he had parked it. Probably shouldn't be allowed to drive in that mental state... 8)

Ha ha good old stw, love the extreme responses from both sides. There was genuinely no malice intended, it was just in the way, I can quite honestly say it would have been wrecked if we'd left it where it was. And I think it'd be all on towing a bike rack let alone a 1.5 tonne trailer!!

If it is illegal Jeremy Beadle was lucky to stay out of gaol that cheeky monkey was always moving cars and pushing them of docks etc.

On one hand it's a big deal but on the other hand it's not a big deal.

On one hand it's a big deal but on the other hand it's not a big deal.

ah, the old ones are the best!

Once many years ago our rugby team bus got blocked in by a mini outside the sport hall at Huddersfield Poly. The entire team picked up the offending car and carried over a low wall before gently setting it down in the Rector's garden. It may still be there now.

This would have learned him:
[img] [/img]

With that many people around - I'm surprised you couldn't have manually lifted the rear wheels and dragged it a yard or two...

With that many people around - I'm surprised you couldn't have manually lifted the rear wheels and dragged it a yard or two...

Health & safety of course! 😉

(deleted, I can't read)

If it was a BMW or an Audi then you where perfectly within your rights to move it 😉

naedeyw - Member

I know it's illegal to park in front of someone's drive and block them in (obstruction)...

No it's not

Yes it is as you are blocking access and the vehicle can be removed / ticketed for causing an obstruction.

And which particular law is that then?

Fancy coming clean on PedantTrackWorld.
Should have known better.

Good on you for dragging the ejuds car out the way.

And which particular law is that then?

That's why I deleted my edit. It's illegal to obstruct a road, not a residence. Unless you're in London.

In answer to your original question, no you did not break the law. Tampering with a vehicle :-

"If, while a motor vehicle is on a road or on a parking place provided by a local authority, a person—

(a)gets on to the vehicle, or

(b)tampers with the brake or other part of its mechanism,

without lawful authority or reasonable cause he is guilty of an offence."
so you would need to mess with the mechanics of the vehicle not just move it and the offense has the defense reasonable excuse which you would easily run.
The other relevant offense would be interfering with a motor vehicle which requires the intent to do another act such as steal when you interfere with the vehicle.So not relevant in your case.
Criminal Damage requires you to intend or be reckless about causing damage and you were not and indeed took steps to avoid doing so.
The only possible offense is TWOC, while i will happily get drawn in to a row with at least two coppers on here about legal issues of actus reus and mens rea in Twoc, the bottom line is in this case you did not use the vehicle as a vehicle merely moved it and there is a case that says moving a car round a corner as a prank was not a crime which clearly covers your scenario.

You can go to bed and sleep the sleep of an innocent.

I got bonus points off the wife for not getting drawn in to this earlier and taking her out for tea instead.(post hastily edited to hide stupidity)

Nice work crank boy, a fine response backed up with use of Latin (?). I shall sleep easier tonight. I do love stw's expert non lawyers with a big opinion though!!

But if you're blocking access i.e. a driveway then you're causing an obstruction. Thats what local plod told me a few years ago when my old neighbour was being a nobber anyway.
Instead of being a smart arse naedeyw, feel free to correct / educate? Im quite happy to be corrected if my knowledge is incorrect. You must be a copper with that some of attitude (or cynic-al with a new login!)!

It's definately illegal to block access where there's a dropped kerb, as my sister has recently had two cars lifted from outside her house on the grounds of that offence. Well that's what the old bill told her anyway.

Used to pick cars up with taillifts on lorries and shift them, that's when they weren't left unlocked anyway.

Is it not exit, as opposed to access?
I always thought a drive with lowered kerb could be blocked if no vehicle is in the drive. If a vehicle is in the drive then you couldn't legally block its exit.

I await correction/ridicule/flogging! 😀

i.e. a driveway then you're causing an obstruction.

That is true but the law relates to unnecessary obstruction of the [i]road[/i], not private driveways. Reference to dropped kerbs is spurious. As far as I'm aware, whilst it is an annoying thing and probably should be an actionable offence, it has never been tested in court to my knowledge. Having said that, it is a commonly held belief that it is illegal and the police, if they get involved, will give the impression (whether unwittingly or not) to 'the offender' that it is an offence.

I am not plod and I get the impression that crankboy may well be able to correct me. I am never too old to learn 🙂

Not sure Neil, hers is two gates so you wouldn't be able to see if there's a car in or not. Anyhoo the cars were definitely taken away by the truck. One of the women even knocked on her door to see if she'd seen anybody steal her car 😆

Criminal Damage requires you to intend or be reckless about causing damage and you were not

If I was prosecuting, that is exactly what he was... Arguably didn't care about damaging the car. That would be the mens rea sorted. Just the problem of actual dammage to satisfy the actus reus element, and I could have certainly found *some* dammage... I'd have thrown the book atcha! 😉

JacksonPollock not wanting to try the case on the interweb but "The car was most certainly not damaged as it was out of gear and the strap attached to his tow bar, lifted up and wheeled back on the front wheels." does suggest that damage was not only not intended but also active steps were taken to avoid risk. So not arguably didn't care about damaging the car . In fact from his post leaving the car where it was and working round it carried a greater risk of damage.

I have no idea what the criminal law about blocking private drive ways is. If someone does it more than once to the same person it could be harassment.

Just the problem of actual dammage to satisfy the actus reus element, and I could have certainly found *some* dammage... I'd have thrown the book atcha!

...and I'd have thrown a dictionary to you in return 😉

The fact that I tiptoed over the roof of a car does not absolve me of recklessness to damage.

I have no idea what the criminal law about blocking private drive ways is.

All conjecture anyhow, as ever with these things it would depend how well it was argued in court 🙂

oops re; my spelling of damage, the fact I did it twice suggests I really meant it 😳

I could have certainly found *some* dammage

Silence in Court!

I hold you all in Contempt.

b)tampers with the brake or other part of its mechanism,

Tampering with the towbar IS tampering with "other part of its mechanism". I know of a local fly posting company that was taken to court for putting flyers under wiper blades..

And yes, if you block a vehicle into a residence it is covered by obstruction laws, not just in London, anywhere there's a dropped kerb.

There's also the question of trespass to goods but that's not criminal obviously.

Merely by having read the statute and the wikipedia page (which is enough to qualify me as internet lawyer), I don't think you could get TWOC. And if you can't get that (or theft) then you can't get interference with a vehicle.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWOC
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/47

but could you prove beyond reasonable doubt that said damage was caused by the defendant?

If it happens again, call the Police. (not 999) We do it occasionally at work if we have trouble accessing a manhole over several days and residents move cones. They will look up any phone numbers via the DVLA etc and try and contact the driver on your behalf and ask if they can move it. If its illegally parked they may decide they have the powers to remove the car, if its legally parked they just ask the driver politely.

I'm not advocating poor parking, but if someone lifted my car via the towbar I'd go nuts, I'd rather it was dragged against the handbrake using the towing eye. But I always leave it in gear so that probably wouldn't work without doing some damage.

The other relevant offense would be interfering with a motor vehicle which requires the intent to do another act such as steal when you interfere with the vehicle. So not relevant in your case.
Criminal Damage requires you to intend or be reckless about causing damage and you were not and indeed took steps to avoid doing so.

phill.w. top video but I'm not going to spend the day debating subjective, objective and hybrid recklessness for free when i can get paid for it instead. Short answer towing vehicle in controlled circumstances carefull not reckless, lifting unsecured long load at ballance point and swinging it about stupid.

Going back to the OP I think the wording of it was deliberately provocative.

So I got the mini digger and dragged it out of the way

The car was most certainly not damaged as it was out of gear and the strap attached to his tow bar, lifted up and wheeled back on the front wheel

That sort of contradiction wouldn't go down well in court and he could find himself at the wrong end of the verdict.

whilst working on building sites full of bloke's i think you will find the usual and best defence of such acts is simply that everyone on site denias all knowledge. 😀

Yes, thanks to his public confession to the world on the internet

We once moved a car in Manchester with the Hiab on our wagon. The car owner came out (eventually, following signage, leaflets, concierge hassling him, etc) and started going mental. The Police also happened to be passing and weren't interested in us and told him to calm down before they lifted him.

We see it every week, smart arses thinking they know better/are too important/are too lazy, ignoring reasonable and timely requests. It costs money (the contractors and eventually the tax payer) and is a total pain. Good on the OP.