[Closed] So… public sector workers...

What pay rise is this then?

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/mar/13/pay-decisions-announced-for-nhs-staff-and-other-public-sector-workers-politics-live-blog ]1%[/url]

I'm not sure it applies to teachers. I get to pay 0.7% more towards my pension from april though.

My heart bleeds purple piss!

As they say.

Nice pay cut.

No pay rise for me in the private sector for a couple of years so don't see the issue they appear to be saying about only getting 1%.

That oh so generous 1% pay rise is not across the board, each dept chooses how to use it. Last year they used it to help those at the bottom of the pay scale here, which was fine.

This year it appears to be linked to performance reviews. Either way it's worth jack shit if you are already at the top of the pay band and they don't move the band margins.

If I got 1% it may help us cope as MrsMC is having to apply for her own job in local government as they halve the size of her team.

MCTD - earning two thirds what he was on in the private sector in 1999, but with a much better work-life balance. But regretting not joining before the great pension schemes were abolished

On the other hand we have Gideon saying that the economy is recovering yet there are massive cuts going on in the public sector, only to outsource them to more expensive, less competent private sector companies with next to 0 accountability.

Whether you work public or private sector don't begrudge what is a joke of a pay rise - we never hear the private sector workers bemoaning their bonuses / pay rises when the going is good.

Oh yeah, forgot my pension contribution goes up again in April....

Pieface - Member
On the other hand we have Gideon saying that the economy is recovering yet there are massive cuts going on in the public sector, only to outsource them to more expensive, less competent private sector companies with next to 0 accountability.

Whether you work public or private sector don't begrudge what is a joke of a pay rise - we never hear the private sector workers bemoaning their bonuses / pay rises when the going is good.

^^this

On your marks.

Get set.

Race to the bottom.

I had my 1% last year at the same time as pensions upped so I got about 20p a month more. This year I'm hoping for an extra 30p in my pocket. I'd move back into private if I could but there's very little work about unless you're around That Landan.

Public sector jobs will one day soon all be private sector jobs,so best to be happy with what you get, lots of unemployed and sick people get a lot less.

If I got 1% it may help us cope as MrsMC is having to apply for her own job in local government as they halve the size of her team

If you can half a team and till function, then that must of been a pretty over staffed dept.

Well it is better than my 0.5% in the private sector.

gobuchul - Member
If I got 1% it may help us cope as MrsMC is having to apply for her own job in local government as they halve the size of her team

If you can half a team and till function, then that must of been a pretty over staffed dept.

But then the long term plan is to half the team so it can't function, thus "proving" that public sector is not "efficient", for it then to be outsourced to the private sector on a more expensive contract so the new company can **** it up whilst making a profit with no accountability.

FTFY

@gobuchol - only overstaffed if you decide to slash the amount of training you provide.

It's not like child protection staff need keeping up to date. What could go wrong if already pressurised newly qualified staff aren't given necessary support?

When the economy was booming and the private sector were getting well above inflation pay rises I can recall the government using low public sector pay increases to avoid excessive inflation, with the justification of good pension deals offsetting some of the difference.

When the economy was doing badly and private sector pay rises were lower (figures for last year were around 2.8% on average) the private sector had a long pay freeze and increased contributions to pensions with poorer pension outcomes.

Now we have some recovery in the economy there are predictions of private sector pay rises up to 3.5% (that I have seen) while public sector are to get 1% maximum and further increases in pension contributions.

?

Time for industrial action?

After all, public sector pay is now outstripping private sector pay by less than in the past. Is that fair?

Private sector worker here - what are these bonuses you speak of??

After all, public sector pay is now outstripping private sector pay by less than in the past. Is that fair?

I could get more pay, longer holidays and the same pension in the private sector!

gonna take it all out of the bank in £5 notes and throw it on the street to watch the poors fight over it

It's not like child protection staff need keeping up to date. What could go wrong if already pressurised newly qualified staff aren't given necessary support?

So your Mrs's dept has been victim of mis-management by incompetent public sector management?

I don't think anyone would suggest that child protection should not be top of the list when it comes to priorities, however, a lot of public sector stuff is unnecessary and over manned. I have witnessed first hand how departments grow for no apparent reason and very vague job justifications are used to do so. This was before the "crash" and the current cuts.

I could get more pay, longer holidays and the same pension in the private sector!

Really? What do you do?

Why don't you go and work in the private sector?

Can't think of where this is true apart from being a mercenary!

Having never been a public sector worker, I do get confused by the whole payrise/payscale thing.

Dr North's a pseudo public sector type (university). Each year she seems to get a pay rise (small) and move up a "spine point" on her payscale.

Is that normal? It's not a criticism either way (I wouldn't work as hard as she does for the money she's paid, although I quite fancy one of the cushy admin jobs that seems to pay around £50k for turning up for around 6 hours a day).

After all, public sector pay is now outstripping private sector pay by less than in the past.

Isn't that just because the public sector staff get laid off then re-hired on zero-hour, zero-benefit, zero-pension contracts by the uber efficient private sector.

Hardly a cause for celebration...

Gobuchul
Teacher
Morals

Average public sector pay £ 16 approx per hour, private sector pay £14 approx per hour. I strongly the average work conditions favor the public sector worker.

It's a disgrace I tell you.... 😉

ourmaninthenorth - Member

Dr North's a pseudo public sector type (university). Each year she seems to get a pay rise (small) and move up a "spine point" on her payscale.

Is that normal?

yes but, she'll only move up a spine point 4 or 5 times until she's at the top of the 'grade'.

going up a grade is difficult at best.

Gobuchul
Teacher
Morals

Fair enough.

Is it the same pension though?

Yep, I presume the school pay the bit the government pays (or doesnt as the case is)

I do get the impression that all the changes to public sector jobs are simply to reduce the liabilities, in order for the lot to be handed over to G4S, Serco, and Capita.

And they've all got the best interests of the country at heart

This thread proves that the Tory's divide and rule mentality has certainly worked (not that labour would have done owt different). Lots of people bickering about who's worse off. In reality the financial crisis, and subsequent austerity, has been used as a cover to **** everyone over, public and private sector equally. Apart from those at the top of course. Who seem to have done rather nicely out of the deal.

anagallis_arvensis - Another question - How is it longer holidays? I assumed that children had to attend a legal minimum each year?

Do the rich kids get more time off?

Kryton - interesting that the top of my scale is below the average hourly rate in the private sector. And I have quite a responsible job as an independent statutory officer - i.e. I am personally accountable if someone takes me to a judicial review.

In the public sector haven't had a pay rise in years :/ nor do I get a public sector pension. I don't know if I will get 1% this year but it would be better than nothing but as Northwind says it is a pay cut. In real terms my salary has fallen by about 10% over the last few years...

gobuchul - Member

If you can half a team and till function, then that must of been a pretty over staffed dept.

We did just that in my last proper private sector job.

We achieved the "efficiency savings" by providing disastrous service and losing customers, making more mistakes leading to high cash losses far in excess of the staff savings, running up a massive overtime bill despite management bullying to attempt to get staff to work for free, and then losing a number of staff to long term stress-related sickness from which they never returned. Then the department was closed down entirely because it was so dysfunctional it wasn't considered worth trying to repair the damage done by the hatchet man.

TBH if this were to happen in the public sector the current government would view it as a success.

Average public sector pay £ 16 approx per hour, private sector pay £14 approx per hour. I strongly the average work conditions favor the public sector worker.

Lower paid public sector staff tend to be better paid than they would be in the private sector. So, cleaners, traffic wardens, etc. are better off.

Higher paid public sector staff tend to be more poorly paid than they would be in the private sector.

Hence, the higher average pay.

We got our first pay ride in 4 years this year, of 1% (sixth form college budgets weren't protected like pre-16). Our salaries are now slightly lower than school teachers'.

In that four years, our pension contributions have risen, we all have an additional 5% contact time, and our class sizes have gone up meaning more work per class outside of contact time.

We've also made some staff redundant and as people leave or retire they're generally not replaced and their work is either spread out among others or just not done at all.

In real terms my salary has fallen by about 10% over the last few years...

ourmaninthenorth - Member
Having never been a public sector worker, I do get confused by the whole payrise/payscale thing.

Dr North's a pseudo public sector type (university). Each year she seems to get a pay rise (small) and move up a "spine point" on her payscale.

Is that normal? It's not a criticism either way (I wouldn't work as hard as she does for the money she's paid, although I quite fancy one of the cushy admin jobs that seems to pay around £50k for turning up for around 6 hours a day).

There is a spine for certain roles (e.g. senior lecturer), and yearly increases are a way to reward experience - mine is about £800 a year. But once you reach the top of a particular scale you're stuck with the yearly rises agreed between employers and unions (e.g. 1%) unless you get a promotion.

This thread proves that the Tory's divide and rule mentality has certainly worked (not that labour would have done owt different). Lots of people bickering about who's worse off. In reality the financial crisis, and subsequent austerity, has been used as a cover to **** everyone over, public and private sector equally. Apart from those at the top of course. Who seem to have done rather nicely out of the deal.

THIS and what DONK said

Its pointless argue over who gets the best deal when we are discussing which one gets the better quality lube whilst the rich shaft us.

As DONK notes its a race to the bottom for no reason that makes sense for anyone but the rich

I have not seen the figures on Public sector but i assumed it was due to the high % of degrees in say teaching and nursing.
I also though the comment above was fair - better pay at lower grades ie cleaners and poorer for professionals say accountants and the like

FFS even Boris agrees to pay a living wage to staff in London and he is hardly a lefty. I bet the city paying the bankers huge bonuses employ a hoarde of zero hours minimum waged cleaners though as costs are important eh.

One rule for them and one for us and distract us by arguing over who gets it worst poor public sector or poor private sector

Having never been a public sector worker, I do get confused by the whole payrise/payscale thing.

Teachers have* a nationally agreed/negotiated pay scale.

There are 6 points on the main scale (£21k to £32k); each year a teacher can progress upward by one point on the scale, subject to passing certain standards.

There are 3 points on the upper pay scale (£34.5k to £37k); every two years a teacher can progress upward by one point on the scale, subject to passing certain standards.

The progression is supposed to reflect the fact that more experienced teachers help their newer colleagues, rather than competing to outperform them: research has shown that the people who go into teaching aren't generally motivated by performance-related pay.

After 12 years you hit the top of the pay scale. You're then stuck at that until you retire/die/go into management. Now that I'm at the top of the scale, I (potentially) have another 31 years of earning this much ahead of me.

[i]*had - see Free Schools[/i]

1% is 0.5% more than I got last year, and that was my first rise for 4 years

Mrs Llama is in public sector and gets £1000 rise every year automatic (while within a pay band).

One rule for them and one for us and distract us by arguing over who gets it worst poor public sector or poor private sector

THIS

llama
1% is 0.5% more than I got last year, and that was my first rise for 4 years

So move to the public sector. Problem solved.

D0NK Winner gets a zero hour contract with no paid holidays no sick leave and [s]sub-minimum[/s] [b]no[/b] wage pay scale, whoop whoop!

If you add in "no pension" too then welcome to the world of the self-employed. We've always been in this situation.

Of course, among the whining and accusations of racing to the bottom, the small factor of our poor trend in productivity is conveniently ignored!!! The productivity gap between the UK and other developed nations is at its widest in 20 years and we expect pay rises - are we all bankers on here??

Increase cost of labour without increasing productivity and what do you get?

Each year she seems to get a pay rise (small) and move up a "spine point" on her payscale.

Is that normal?

It used to be normal.

Not so much now. In my case no spinal point progression for the past 3 years. Now they are reintorducing it but based on performance (fair enough), only every two years and they have removed the top band in each spinal point.

So move to the public sector. Problem solved.

It is very tempting, but not that simple, lack of suitable positions in my area being a key problem.

It is very tempting, but not that simple, lack of suitable positions in my area being a key problem.

Understandable. Since the financial cutback hit home we have been employing fewer and fewer llama's each year. Same goes for alpacas.

Have you considered retraining and becoming a dog?

Mrs Llama is in public sector and gets £1000 rise every year automatic (while within a pay band).

thats pay progression though, not a pay rise.
Take teaching first six years go from 21-32 unless you are shit. People start tea hing knowing this its part of the pa kage that attracts them. Now given that a third of teachers leave the profession in the first five years the government gets a good deal rather than having all of them on 29k or whatever.

There are 6 points on the main scale (£21k to £32k); each year a teacher can progress upward by one point on the scale, subject to passing certain standards.

There are 3 points on the upper pay scale (£34.5k to £37k); every two years a teacher can progress upward by one point on the scale, subject to passing certain standards...

...After 12 years you hit the top of the pay scale. You're then stuck at that until you retire/die/go into management

That is a bit missleading by omission. There are lots of ways to earn more than £37k as a teacher and still have the majority of your role be teaching kids. The 37k threshold will also increase once you are able to collectively negaotiate a new deal with the government.

Combine that with the fact that £37k is a comparably large amount to earn today as a graduate who hasn't taken on any additional responsibilities and you can see why people have a preconception of "greedy" public sector workers.

Your pay may be collectively negotiated and a private sector workers individually negotiated but they are subject to the same presures. A person in a functional role may get anual pay rises if they are lucky but they will likely be well below the published rate of public sector pay inflation. They will also be suubject to a threshold where there experiance is not longer of any addional value so the only way to increase pay is to take on additional responsibilities.

Public sector pay increases are driven by mobility. A worker can leave one company and work for another doing the same job and while do so individually negotiate a higher sallary. Companyies may pay more to retain staff. As teachers you have forfeited this right by negotiating a collective pay scheme. Free schools give you a glimpse of this option butmany teachers reject them as it is against their public sector utopian vision.

Moving in the opposite direction here. About 6000 staff set to have their hours reduced by 1 hr per week, which for me means a drop of about £740 per year.

We're effectively being sacked then re-employed on the new contract. Which is nice.

Increase cost of labour without increasing productivity and what do you get?

What do you put this down to thm? There seems to be a few inexplicable anomalies with the whole jobs market at the moment. There are apparently more people employed than ever before, but the output is lower.

Could it be that what employers think of as the holy grail, is actually anything but? So employing more people, but all on zero hours contracts, or on part time hours would on the face of greatly reduce their overheads and liabilities. But in reality, this leads to a disjointed, disconnected staff, and thus reduced productivity?

It reminds me of the whole thing of moving call centres abroad for supposedly massive cost savings. Apart from the inconvenient fact, that the cost savings failed to materialise, and all they did was piss their customers off.

In which case, its the fault of short-sighted management

No we havent you can get retention payments as a teacher, I got. 3k rise once for not going to an interview..
Simple fact is in many areas there are a huge shortage of good teachers due to masses being spent on training people who leave very quickly. The standard of graduate coming into teaching as also dropped, combined with better terms and conditions in the private sector its no suprise our education system isnt the best.

No we havent you can get retention payments as a teacher, I got. 3k rise once for not going to an interview..

In that case Miketually's statement is even more missleading. A prime example of public sector whinging while wanting to have your cake and eat it.

Binners, not least our relatively weak track record in terms of investment in investment, skills and training. There is a lot of focus on the current "productivity puzzle" as many call it. Perhaps more interesting, however, is whether the productivity improvements that took place pre the crisis were illusory or not? A nice exam question.

But step aside from the muddy waters at present. In theory, if you increase the cost of labour without adjusting productivity the new equilibrium point will have fewer people in work, but enjoying higher wages than the original point. The classic union/management/labour market conundrum!!!!

this is a race to the bottom and you're losing, get with the program dude! Winner gets a zero hour contract with no paid holidays no sick leave and sub-minimum wage pay scale, whoop whoop!

Its easy to label it a race to the bottom, but the real race to the bottom was offshore - and what we're actually seeing is manufacturing gradually coming back to Britain, so it has real, tangible benefits.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/03/production-returning-uk-manufacturers-china

Perhaps 'not quite so good pay' is better than no job at all?

anagallis_arvensis - Member
The standard of graduate coming into teaching as also dropped

...along with the Hs? 😉

I thought that you were Welsh not cockney AA?

binners

I thought it had been fairly well documented that during the recessions employment didn't drop as fast was expected, many employers held onto people but effectively cut wages in real terms through no pay rises. The alternative would have been to lose more people but pay those that were left more (or at least keep their real world pay in line with the cost of living). Which would you have preferred.

If the private wealth creating sector isn't creating as much wealth there's less money to pay for the supporting services which don't directly contribute to the countries wealth.

That is a bit missleading by omission. There are lots of ways to earn more than £37k as a teacher and still have the majority of your role be teaching kids.

I didn't say otherwise.

The 37k threshold will also increase once you are able to collectively negaotiate a new deal with the government.

Yep, that's the current pay for the P3 point. Hence me saying I'd be stuck at that [i]point[/i], not that [i]money[/i].

Combine that with the fact that £37k is a comparably large amount to earn today as a graduate who hasn't taken on any additional responsibilities and you can see why people have a preconception of "greedy" public sector workers.

You think so? I'm pretty sure I earn a [i]lot[/i] less than many people I was at uni with.

No we havent you can get retention payments as a teacher, I got. 3k rise once for not going to an interview..

I've never known anyone get offered anything like that. I must just work with shit teachers.

In that case Miketually's statement is even more missleading. A prime example of public sector whinging while wanting to have your cake and eat it.

Thankfully, the teachers' pay and conditions are available for all to see online. So you get to make your mind up based on facts rather than what I may or may not have quite worded correctly on a MTB forum, in a hurry.

Is now a good time to mention the hours worked by teachers and the amount of holiday they get compared to us private sector workers?

Is now a good time to mention the hours worked by teachers and the amount of holiday they get compared to us private sector workers?

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week ]Knock yourself out[/url].

Yeah we get less holiday than exactly the same role in the private sector!!

How so? most private sector workers get somewhere between 23 and 28 days holiday. How many do teachers get?

As for hours, if you surveyed many private sector workers they would also tell you they work 60 hours per week. Not sure that proves anything?

Just seen on the news Cameron saying that those going up a spine point in the nhs wont get the pay rise but saying they are still getting a pay rise despite saying it was pay progression himself. What an utter ****tard.

How so? most private sector workers get somewhere between 23 and 28 days holiday. How many do teachers get?

private school teachers get longer holidays with often more pay and the same pension.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
How so? most private sector workers get somewhere between 23 and 28 days holiday. How many do teachers get?
private school teachers get longer holidays with often more pay and the same pension.

So why not become a private school teacher?

And how many days per year do you get as holiday?

Morals
Dont know I dont count em and cant change them ayway, I'll guess at lots!!!

Average public sector pay £ 16 approx per hour, private sector pay £14 approx per hour. I strongly the average work conditions favor the public sector worker.

Did you ever stop to think that there may be a disproportionate amount of minimum wage jobs in the private sector, eg hospitality that brings that average down.

If some of the scientists in my department went back into private industry as opposed to working for a government department..eg DEFRA, they'd dwarf their current earnings.

Private school teachers do get longer holidays, but not necessarily more pay. They also may[b] work longer weeks, for example I teach on Saturdays, run sports in afternoons (incl. Sats) and have boarding duties until 10pm. So it isn't more holidays for exactly the same job.
However, I think that public sector workers, including teachers, do deserve a pay rise and in general do a great job. I would accept a tax rise to fund this. I don't believe that you can cut back without impacting on services and that scale of potential efficiency savings has been overstated for years.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Morals
Dont know I dont count em and cant change them ayway, I'll guess at lots!!!

So it is morally wrong to be a private school teacher, even though you think you are underpaid and overworked (but with lots of holiday) where you are now?

I have the wonderful time of being a private sector employee in a public sector job. I get the same salary as the people on the bottom of their pay scale But none of the public sector benefits, no sick pay, pension (my employer pays £1.50,in a week) less holiday etc all for doing the exact same job!

Hooli, Ibelieve so yes.

RichT indeed pay isnt automatically more but any good teacher I know who has jumped ship has been paid more. As for the hours well its hard to say but class sizes are certainly smaller that must help. Discussion for another day though.

wiggles, change jobs then.

If you add in "no pension" too then welcome to the world of the self-employed. We've always been in this situation.

*But i guess there maybe a bunch of SE people doing jobs they hate for tuppence a week and getting taxed ha'penny of that.

More of the scientists in our lab are leaving. Over the last few years there has been a trend towards some pretty experienced people leaving and going into the private sector or leaving the sector al together. We have a pretty high turnover now. When I last looked I am paid a few thousand less than the average in my field for the number of years experience. I am paid less than the average person in Bristol apparently, even with a doctorate directly related to my job.

You can keep reducing the pay but it is unlikely you will retain the same type of staff.

AA, I'm trying but Newport is not exactly a hub of growth and opportunity

True, but it's complicated by fewer opportunities for progression by lower staff turnover (in some cases). I don't have any particular agenda but just wanted to clarify some of the differences. I trained in the state sector and saw loads of great teaching, life just went in a different direction! I think Gove's recent comparisons of the two has not been helpful to anyone.
Back to work now. Cheers.

No doubt there are differences Rich but its a good example of very comparable public and private sector jobs.