[Closed] SNP. You LOST, get over it

The best tactic is to invest in Scotland now, because when England leaves the EU, Scottish independence will occur, and you will then still be able to trade with the EU.

You have to smile at the sensitivities that the Scots have to UK being equated with England, and yet seem happy to regularly ignore Wales and the other parts of the UK.

Narrow, nationalistic-centric? Me pal.......? Perhaps McFly were right all along!!

Two urban centres will be dominating the politics of the whole country soon....representative, me pal?

Yes, it's a worry. This whole get out of Europe movement is extremely unsettling for business and is bound to affect investment.

The best tactic is to invest in Scotland now, because when England leaves the EU, Scottish independence will occur, and you will then still be able to trade with the EU.

😀

Unfortunately for the No camp a 55:45 divide, while a clear win, didn't deliver anything like enough of a margin for the matter to be totally put to bed. The Smith report itself is insisting that 67% is required for something as important as a consitutional question, so given the No campaign didn't come anywhere near that then it's not surprising that many think there could be another referendum with the next 10-20 years - especially given the likelyhood of political turmoil across the UK in the next few years.

Why not turn it around and give Glasgow independence from the UK. Lets face it they don't like the UK (based on their voting at least) and the rest of the UK don't like them, so everyone's a winner 😆

teamhurtmore - Member
You have to smile at the sensitivities that the Scots have to UK being equated with England, and yet seem happy to regularly ignore Wales and the other parts of the UK...

Clutching at straws mate. I didn't mention Wales or NI because I haven't seen anything about them wanting out of EU.

Maybe we'll even do a rUK with them while England sails off to oblivion in its make believe leaky imperial boat. 🙂

But on a more serious note, eat_more_cheese raised quite a valid point about uncertainty. Scotland is a provincial market, so its separation from the Uk was unlikely to have serious longterm effects on investment here, especially as the reality was that we would have remained in or re-entered the EU.

But the UK moving out of the EU, is much more serious. For companies wanting an English speaking base with access to EU markets, an non EU UK would be very unattractive.

Objectively the answer right now would be to not invest in the UK at all (including Scotland 🙁 ), and base the business in Eire. It has an open border with NI, so it allows a bet each way. I would be surprised if the Irish are not playing this card right now.

We live in uncertain times. "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold".

Gregor Townsend would be proud of such a sidestep. Don't worry our friends in Wales are used to it by now and the rest of us understand the anti-English driver (excuse for all ills).

Dragon good idea - independent states of Glasgow and Dundee, and rUK - including Wales, N Ireland etc... Everyone's a winner.

Re-entering the EU - the old automatic assumption!!! Plus ca change.....

eat_more_cheese - Member

What concerns me now is the lack of uncertainty in Scotland's future-it can only lead to a lack of investment which in turn affects every single one of us living in Scotland.

No, remember only lack of certainty over independence is damaging to the economy. Lack of certainty over europe is absolutely [i]fine. [/i]

teamhurtmore - Member
Funny how that argument only seems to work one way?

Why did so many SNP voters vote NO?

Anyhow, if people think this is going to go away, they are kidding themselves.

tbh i'd like to see the "yes" movement widen into wales and northern england, and further if possible.

It's interesting that the enlightenment spread from scotland to the rest of the uk. lot of political thinking going on up here these days.

far as I see it's the whole argument isn't particularly about independence but it's more about moving politics onto something better.. i'm still waiting to see the rumblings for more democracy from elsewhere in the UK.

Ultimately that's what will split the UK imo, it's a case of whether rUK wakes up to more democracy or sticks with the status quo..

The independence movement is more about democracy than nationalism. It is very much an amorphous people's movement and not a monolithic thing that can be directed.

If we accept that the problem starts at the Watford gap, it raises the question of what are you doing about it in your part of the country?

From our perspective, it looks like you are swinging to an even more right wing version of what we are trying to get away from, so there doesn't seem much prospect of a common cause.

Do you really think two million Scottish tories came out of the woodwork and stole your referendum?

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9383482/the-national-shows-just-how-much-danger-the-union-and-scotland-is-still-in/

You missed the point as it related to rUK and Scotland finding a common purpose and they are clearly saying that rUK is swinging towards UKIP/ the right and scotland is rejecting this and being more left wing. They were not commenting on Scotland no voters at all.No tsure why you think they were tbh. Given there are more UKIP mp's in england than Tory ones in Scotland it seems a reasonable point to make

bearGrease - Member
"The independence movement is more about democracy than nationalism. It is very much an amorphous people's movement and not a monolithic thing that can be directed."

Utter BS. It's SNP ideology pinned to any policies they fancy that week.

So the LibDems for Independence, Labour for Independence, the Green party, RIC, Common Weal, and Wealthy Nation to name a few nonSNP political groups are actually SNP?

Dream on.

"From our perspective, it looks like you are swinging to an even more right wing version of what we are trying to get away from, so there doesn't seem much prospect of a common cause."

And this rather betrays your prejudice that anyone against Scottish separatism must be a an English tory.

I don't know how you extrapolated prejudice from that. I specified the word perspective.

A perspective I might add that for those of us not resident in England, can only be obtained from the mainstream media.

So, does that mean you agree with us that the media are telling us lies?

There is no swing to the right. Current projections show a hung parliament with Labour requiring one seat for majority. So Scots do not have to worry about a conservative/UKIP/EDL/BNP coalition.

What is all this nonsense about Labour and the conservatives being in bed together? Some of the worst tripe I have ever come across, just because they were on the same side in the referendum does not make them bed mates. A politician saying something does not make it true I am afraid. 🙄

There is no swing to the right.

What is all this nonsense about Labour and the conservatives being in bed together?

[quote=fasternotfatter ]There is no swing to the right. Current projections show a hung parliament with Labour requiring one seat for majority. 😆
[img] http://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/uk2010.php [/img]

Rise of UKIP is a splitting of the existing right I reckon, not an overall swing.

Ok - which left-of-centre UK party is likely to be in power next?

I'm actually interested if there is anything recording a genuine rise of the right.

Beyond that is, those already on the right either changing political allegiance. Or becoming less politically apathetic.

I know of a few UKIP voters, and they've always been that 'way' inclined but have either voted Tory* or not bothered to vote.

Scotroutes wins todays prize for out of date obscure graph from a website no one has heard of.

I suppose labour do look to the right of the SNP, but then again Labour are aiming to reduce the deficit rather than buy votes. It will be interesting to see how the SNPs figures for an independent Scotland stack up with the oil price set to hit rock bottom! There would have been some seriously austere times coming had Scotland chosen independence.

[quote=fasternotfatter ]Scotroutes wins todays prize for out of date obscure graph from a website no one has heard of.You mean "a website [i]you've[/i] never heard of". Do you think Labour have moved left since 2010?

The only way they could move left is to splash the cash, we don't have any cash to splash I am afraid. Neither would Scotland if it was independent. Aren't you glad Scotland is still a part of the UK?

No

There would have been some seriously austere times coming had Scotland chosen independence.

There are anyway, with most economic growth currently based on very London-centric jobs and a property bubble, wages still declining, and many more cuts to come. And that's before businesses flee the country when the morons drag us out of Europe.

I guess we can rely on every scot to vote against leaving the EU then. Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.

fasternotfatter - Member
...Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.

It will be, when we get it.

Ben have you forgotten just how exposed the Scottish economy is to two very mature industries (one of which has volatile and currently low prices) and another one owned mainly by Johnny Foreigner?

ComRes EU Referendum Poll:

UK:
Stay: 32%
Leave: 48%

Scotland:
Stay: 45%
Leave: 36%

Blah blah, **** blah. Watch the money masters, then u will 'see' it doesn't matter who 'YOU' vote for.
Stupid people.

Believing that is how they win.

Now that the independence movement is over I guess it is time to start making the UK work and campaigning for change that benefits the whole of the UK. I take it there will be a lot of positive voices from Scotland extolling the virtues of staying in the EU. After all an independent Scotland would not have wanted it's biggest trading partner out of the EU would it? Potential import/export tariffs and a border to cross where you have to show your passport, this would not benefit Scotland at all. Rather than trying to show how divided Scotland is from the rUK shouldn't Scots be working to keep the UK in the EU.

[quote=fasternotfatter ]Now that the independence movement is over
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Nice to see that my sense of humour is not lost on everyone 😆

shouldn't Scots be working to keep the UK in the EU

The SNP and the Greens are committed to this, but unfortunately Scotland is outnumbered 10:1 - not much Scots can do when Westminster and the media (and the public in the rest of the UK) are going the opposite way.

OH just had to explain what "Red Tories" were to our 4-year-old, though - she saw a big banner saying "Red Tories Out" 😉

epicyclo - Member
fasternotfatter - Member
...Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.
It will be, when we get it.

So just because you lost the vote, the issue becomes undemocratic???

Everyone stated what a wonderful example of democracy the referendum was including a very high turnout and a high level of engagement. Are you guys never satisfied.

There used to be a joke among E'burgh taxi drivers at the airport about the London shuttle - you could tell which plane it was because when the engines stopped you could hear (the English) whining, I think the target of that joke needs changing.

No wonder there is such support for the EU given it's tradition of ignoring democratic decisions!

So just because you lost the vote, the issue becomes undemocratic???

The referendum was democratic. Westminster is not.

Ben certain aspects of Westminster are not democratic and could be improved. Labour are talking about replacing the lords with an elected senate, so things could be looking a lot better sooner than you think. Scottish votes could decide whether we have Cameron in charge again, So I don't think Scots should be looking to punish Labour for being on the same side as the Tories in the independence referendum. I am not saying abandon the SNP but I wouldn't rule out asking Scots to vote tactically to oust the Tories from Scotland.

Sorry, but that's what we're told time and time again. We need to vote Labour to get the Tories out. It's our responsibility to protect everyone else from the Tories. We need to forget what's best for Scotland and vote for what's best for the UK.

Bollocks to that. We've tried it again and again, and look where it's got us - there's naff all difference between Labour and the Tories. Labour started the dismantling of the NHS with foundation hospitals. Labour was more than happy to go along with the Thatcherite privatisation agenda. Labour is firmly behind the UKIP-led anti-immigration policies.

No more.

Help me O BEN One COOPER you are our only hope
[img] [/img]

Labour are talking about replacing the lords with an elected senate, so things could be looking a lot better sooner than you think.

Or a lot worse....!

[quote=fasternotfatter ]Labour are talking about replacing the lords with an elected senate,Wow. It's like [s]1988[/s] 2007 all over again.

OH just had to explain what "Red Tories" were to our 4-year-old, though - she saw a big banner saying "Red Tories Out"

Bet she was pleased she'd asked! 🙁

I bet PM Churchill, after WWII, thought that the formation of EU meant the British could be in charged etc. Hey PM Churchill are you turning in your grave yet? Your future weaklings have practically negotiated away all that the nation's rights and "independence" by bowing to shite technocrat like this ...

[img] [/img]

Bet she was pleased she'd asked!

Probably was - always wants to know stuff. It can be quite exhausting, especially before I've had my first coffee of the morning. I once ended up agreeing to show her how to make gunpowder - luckily she got distracted by something but she'll remember eventually.

Your future weaklings have practically negotiated away all that the nation's rights and "independence" by [s]bowing to shite technocrat like this[/s] doing everything the US tells us to do

FTFY

epicyclo - Member
fasternotfatter - Member
...Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.
It will be, when we get it.

Really, you defeated separatists really come across as what Dr. Spooner would have described as a bunch of shining wits.

bencooper - Member

Your future weaklings have practically negotiated away all that the nation's rights and "independence" [s]by bowing to shite technocrat like this[/s] [b]doing everything the US tells us to do[/b]

FTFY

Are you saying Mexican is in charged? 😆

Are you saying Mexican is in charged?

Yes? Or No? To be honest I don't understand the question.

teamhurtmore - Member

So just because you lost the vote, the issue becomes undemocratic???

I'm pretty sure you're intentionally misunderstanding tbh. The referendum was democratic of course. But the result has meant the continuation of an overtly undemocratic system, with unelected lawmakers (some of whom get the job for being religious leaders ffs, but only as long as they're from the right sect of christianity) and good old fptp.

There used to be a joke among E'burgh taxi drivers at the airport about the London shuttle - you could tell which plane it was because when the engines stopped you could hear (the English) whining, I think the target of that joke needs changing.

Really, you defeated separatists really come across as what Dr. Spooner would have described as a bunch of shining wits.

The only whining I'm hearing is from the likes of you, obviously annoyed that we wont get back in our box.

It is an oddly persistent view, that since we lost the referendum we should all give up on the idea of independence and just accept the status quo. Imagine if that applied in ohter situations:

"The Tories won the last election, so Labour voters should stop supporting Labour?
"Your footbal team lost, so you should stop supporting them and start supporting a winning team"

Realy, I think it's being wishful. The No people know they won, but they feel like they lost. Labour, especially, know that they're in serious trouble in Scotland, so are trying to desperately pretend the whole thing didn't happen - witness Gordon Brown's ridiculous "press reset" speech.

bearGrease - Member
...Really, you defeated separatists really come across as what Dr. Spooner would have described as a bunch of shining wits.

Defeated? You're only defeated when you give up.

You may have noticed we haven't given up.

And will not.

Ever.

Maybe it is time to accept the result and instead focus on improving Scotland and the UK. There is no mandate for another referendum in the foreseeable future.

You may have noticed we blah blah blah

Nobody is listening. You can always emigrate from the UK if you don't like the outcome of the once in a lifetime democratic vote.

It is an oddly persistent view, that since we lost the referendum we should all give up on the idea of independence and just accept the status quo. Imagine if that applied in ohter situations:

Other situations like if no had lost the referendum?

I'm sure you would be bending over backwards to accommodate the desire of the no voters to not give up on the chance of reunion with another referendum in a couple of years?

Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime...

ninfan - Member
...Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime...

Well, seeing as it's being going on for over 100 years, that's unlikely.

There is no mandate for another referendum in the foreseeable future.

Nobody is listening.

Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime just as ban hunting ended that pantomime 😈

FTFY

Potential import/export tariffs and a border to cross where you have to show your passport, this would not benefit Scotland at all.

we never quite resolved the EU issue now did we

GOD PLEASE NO

[url= http://www.oil-price.net/ ]http://www.oil-price.net/[/url]

No safe home in the Eurozone, no oil bonanza, no chance of an independent Scotland.

ninfan - Member

I'm sure you would be bending over backwards to accommodate the desire of the no voters to not give up on the chance of reunion with another referendum in a couple of years?

Within reason, yup- it'd take more than a couple of years of course, start a reunion campaign, get the mandate to pursue it in the general election, gain support from Westminster etc but why wouldn't we? That's the thing about democracy, you don't go around telling people they never get the thing they want because they lost once in the past

Course, the No parties would all be totally against it- at least, that's what they said in the referendum campaign, there's no way back from independence and I think we established that everything they said was 100% true and definitely couldn't change after a Yes vote 😉

bencooper - Member
It is an oddly persistent view, that since we lost the referendum we should all give up on the idea of independence and just accept the status quo. Imagine if that applied in ohter situations:

As in a yes vote?

Would you be arguing like the DO that this was a once in a lifetime decision, or that unionists should be give up on the idea of a union?

There was enough bllx spouted during the campaign can we not have a break now?

[b]Slight hijack alert[/b] because Ben needs explanation ... 😆

bencooper - Member

Are you saying Mexican is in charged?

Yes? Or No? To be honest I don't understand the question.

The migration of S.Americans(incl Mexican) to merica will inevitably result in a vote for a certain party. Therefore, if migration cannot be control a certain party will have an advantage over others. Hence, the "Mexican" is in charge coz they are just right at the border of merica and migration either legal or illegal mean one day they will be the majority voters. As a result, if British govt " ... doing everything the US tells us to do" it will be like saying follow the Mexican ... 😆

Now, [u][b]IMO[/b][/u] if you are in EU and with free migration the balance of power will become imbalance as the new migrants will likely to vote for political party(s) that supports their values. Therefore, for political party(s) that wants to be in position of power they will do all they can to secure these votes and being in EU means they (political party(s)) will always get support ...

My experience in N.Borneo is exactly that with mass migration within two generations (corrupted politicians granting voting rights/citizenship to illegal immigrants) that resulted in the local voting rights being diminished. i.e. the new migrants population is slowly overshadowing the locals. We have similar Union (like UK) with with three regional states forming a country but due to one region (where central govt is with the main political party) wanting to be in charge, they turn a blind eye or encourage the allocation of voting rights to the illegals (who due to same religion domination want to annex us in the long run).

Now, if British govt stays in EU then the likelihood of not having control over own destiny is very high. A bit like Scotland in UK where the power given to Scotland is negligible.

I bet the formation of EU immediately after WWII was to counter CCCP as Dear Leader Stalin was a bit eager to expand his territory.

Scotland has the dilemma of siding the lesser evil. For the time being it is "better the devil you know (than the devil you don't)" and EU is the latter in evolution while remaining in UK might be a better option for now until Scotland can truly take charge of own destiny.

It is better to be poor and in charge of own destiny than be well off with your life in others' hands bowing. You choose.

😛

Edit: Scotland will eventually be an independence country but the road ahead is tough because your "local" population is tiny. If the central govt wants to get very nasty all they need to do is simply move the prosperity of "London" to one part of Scotland and the population migration will be instant. Guess what ... the new population will easily out vote the local to remain in UK.

Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime...

The Smith report that even the BBC are reporting was significantly watered down by Westminster parties before publication? The Smith report that's only a bunch of recommendations, some recycled from the Calman Commission, that still has to get passed by Westminster?

Yes, no thanks.

I think we established that everything they said was 100% true and definitely couldn't change after a Yes vote

Would you be arguing like the DO that this was a once in a lifetime decision

Asked if he would seek another referendum if there was a "No" vote on Thursday, the SNP leader said: "If you remember that previous constitutional referendum in Scotland - there was one in 1979 and then the next one was 1997.

"That's what I mean by a political generation.

"In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity for Scotland."

It really does not help your case if you call him a deceiver and then you inaccurately describe his statements. Damn them facts eh

was significantly watered down by Westminster parties before publication?

Really? the BBC says that changes happened "in the final days of the negotiations"

While the report makes it clear that

[i]This report sets out the agreement reached between all five of Scotland’s main political
parties: Conservative, Green, Labour, Liberal Democrat and the SNP.[/i]

So, like it or not, the SNP and Green party were signatories to the final version of the report!

So 18 years then? Nice! See you all in 2032 to start the discussion.

Can a MOD please close this thread to stop another year long argument that changes no ones opinion.

Junky, he did day once in a lifetime

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11095210/Alex-Salmond-This-is-a-once-in-a-generation-opportunity-for-Scotland.html

From 1:15 seconds on the video linked

Marr: [i]"Can you pledge that Alex Salmond will not bring back another referendum if you don't win this one?"[/i]

Salmond: [i]"well, thats my view, my view this a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime, opportunity for Scotland"[/i]

I am sure AS is delighted by the weight you put in his opinion now lets see if the mods feel the same abut your opinion 😉

I think it will take something extraordinary for that timescale to not be the case. However this opinion wont stop people campaigning for it anymore than it will stop you being pro the union and campaigning for them to STFU or as they might describe it silence the locals like an Imperialistic overlord 😀

EDIT : I think the bit before where he say yo have said it is once in a generation is that still your view and he goes "yes" is a little less ambiguous than your quote. In context he adds that phrase at the end of thirty seconds repeating its once in a generation. I stand by what I said but accept you [ and others] can labour the point if you so wish but its a little disingenuous and unfair, though not impossible, to argue it thus

I should also add damn them facts but aimed at me this time 😳 but i would still call it spinning/cherry picking if you listen to the whole bit.

[quote=ninfan ]Marr: "Can you pledge that [b]Alex Salmond will not bring back another referendum[/b] if you don't win this one?"
Salmond: "well, thats my view, my view this a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime, opportunity for Scotland"
See that's the thing about him standing down as FM and leader of the SNP. [i]He[/i] won't be in a position to bring back another referendum.

Anyway, as I said back on Page 2 of this very thread..

17/18 years between Devo/Indy votes (1979, 1997, 2014) seems about right. I guess it will depend on how well these current proposals go down.
And as Junkyard says, the EU thing could make a big difference.

You never can predict the future: in a few years time Westminster might not be stuffed with an arrogant coterie of tossers, and the City of London not filled with self-serving blaggers. In which unlikely case we'll all feel proud to be part of this once-great nation.

[quote=slowoldgit ]You never can predict the future: in a few years time Westminster might not be stuffed with an arrogant coterie of tossers, and the City of London not filled with self-serving blaggers. In which unlikely case we'll all feel proud to be part of this once-great nation.

STW might not be full of argumentative gits. I suppose anything is possible.

Scotroutes, you don't need reminding I am sure that Nicola Sturgeon used the same words as well including the once in a lifetime bit.. So just because we are rid of the deceitful one for now, doesn't change what was said by yS proponents pre the result. I know they said a lot so false things during the process, are you now suggesting that we simply add this to a long list.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24147303

Beware, there is a lot of claptrap to endure before you get to the relevant bit

Of course she also said that a NO would mean no change which we can all see was yet another blatant untruth. Things have changed a lot - clearly.

More spinning than a merry go round but far less entertaining!!

Maybe it is time to accept the result and instead focus on improving Scotland and the UK. There is no mandate for another referendum in the foreseeable future.

To be fair. If your belief is that Scotland will be a better place once independent. Moving on from from losing the vote is trying to change public opinion. In order to create a new mandate for an independence vote.

The thing that intrigues me is will any moves to win over more of the middle classes result in alienating those at the bottom, thus generating higher levels of voter apathy amongst that segment of society.

You never can predict the future: in a few years time Westminster might not be stuffed with an arrogant coterie of tossers, and the City of London not filled with self-serving blaggers. In which unlikely case we'll all feel proud to be part of this once-great nation.

Emm..... sounds like your referring to a time when this was the case. Link please as I'm not aware of it ever being the case.

SOG, odd then that more people voted to remain part of such a dreadful once-great nation than the proposed utopia offered by independence!?!

At least, if it is another 17-20 years, yS might have done their homework by then and save us all the embarrassment of another book of dreams.

What would you describe a manifesto as if not a book of dreams? No political party ever delivers on it.

@ pieminster It is almost always the case. if you need links you will not be convinced.

@THM

4:42
Question: If you lose the referendum will that settle it for a generation?

Answer: Laughs/chuckles the SNP has always said in our view these events are a once in a generation event...probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I think you need to ignore the bits where they state their views and cherry pick [the bit they express with no certainity and some doubt ]if you wish to claim their stated view is that it is a once in a lifetime opportunity.

It really is that thread all over again and I am not doing this again THM is free to interpret what is said as he wishes but its driven by his politics as much as what is said.
I probably wont engage on it anymore
I possibly wont engage on it anymore

See what I did there 😉

🙂 at Minster of the pies

Can I claim it as deliberate 😉

Come the revolution, you can fight it out with Binners, for the job