[Closed] Snow driving question.

More "grunt" - less chance of spinning the wheels as you accelerate. Most modern vehicles will happily pull away from a standstill in 2nd gear.

high gear means no rapid acceleration, so no wheel spin

So, just the same principle as when pulling off (though I did have some spin even in 2nd tonight) but on the flat/uphill?

Druidh- mine is not a modern vehicle 😉

The other thing to bear in mind is if your vehicle is 2 wheel drive then engine braking will only effect 2 wheels, whereas using your brakes very gently will distribute braking around all four wheels. Meaning it is less likely that you will slide.

Yes using a higher gear will mean that you use less power, as power is directly related to engine revolutions.

Thing to remember in bad weather (& I'd argue all the time) is that a well maintained vehicle without any mechanical faults will only ever slide for 3 reasons:

Sudden/hard steering inputs
Sudden/hard acceleration
Sudden/hard braking

All of which are controlled by you, the driver. Just be very gentle on all the controls and you'll be fine.

The thing that always stuck in my mind from training years ago was being told to treat the controls like they would cost you a fortune every time you used them.

i.e. try not to use them

You obviously have to - but you get the idea

Neither does engine braking have any ABS, so stay in a higher gear and use the pedal brake.

Even on a 2wd drive car you should use engine braking (but not high revs) as much as possible. The brakes are quite insensitive so it can be quite hard to not lock the wheels, once the wheels are locked the car will follow the camber of the road, whether that be sideways or forwards. If only one set of wheels lock then the car will start pointing in a different direction as well.

With engine braking, if the wheels lose grip, instead of being completely locked they will turn slowly as the engine idles. This will give a small amount of control enabling you to keep away from the kerb and steer around stuff.

[i]Thing to remember in bad weather (& I'd argue all the time) is that a well maintained vehicle without any mechanical faults will only ever slide for 3 reasons:

Sudden/hard steering inputs
Sudden/hard acceleration
Sudden/hard braking[/i]

Or gentle inputs on snow, or any input whatsoever on ice!

I am dont subscribe to the higher gear school of thought on this one. I much prefer to just do stuff really far in advance. Smoothness is key.

Smoothness is the key

+1

And don't be afraid to keep your speed low, all the ****s behind in 4wds can just sit there fuming

Should people be letting some air out of their tyres? Like we do on our bikes when grip is low...

I am dont subscribe to the higher gear school of thought on this one. I much prefer to just do stuff really far in advance. Smoothness is key.

Effectively the same thing getting into a higher gear earlier for a smoother gradual change rather than aggressive.

Thing to remember in bad weather (& I'd argue all the time) is that a well maintained vehicle without any mechanical faults will only ever slide for 3 reasons:

Sudden/hard steering inputs
Sudden/hard acceleration
Sudden/hard braking

It'll reduce it massively but at times you'll slide even following all those, you need to know how to control it when it does go wrong.

Thing to remember in bad weather (& I'd argue all the time) is that a well maintained vehicle without any mechanical faults will only ever slide for 3 reasons:

Sudden/hard steering inputs
Sudden/hard acceleration
Sudden/hard braking

Err no. Ice on a corner? Too much speed? Changing surface? (Hit a white line when braking for instance)
You can start sliding for many reasons. The trick is to either anticipate it, or know what to do when you do slide.

About 14 years ago I was going to pick a mate up from his parents house just outside Newark, in a small village. I was early so as I came up to the village I'd just backed right off and slowed down without braking. I was under 30mph before I got to the 30mph sign. Just entering the village the road took a gentle, slightly off camber right turn, under some trees. I was trickling along really, but under the trees was pure sheet black ice. Totally invisible. All the rest of the roads were fine, but the trees must have sheltered this section. I hit the ice and with no input at all, I was sliding. Up the kerb and onto the pavement and towards someone's front wall! Luckily the pavement was a bit rough and I got some grip back, so I could straighten up and slow to walking pace before carrying on. I got to his house 200-ish yards away, and was telling the story outside when there was the sound of crunching metal. 3 car pile up......

I was on a neutral throttle, under the speed limit, paying attention and the surface looked EXACTLY the same as all the others that day - A bit wet. No input from me at all, save from a gentle right turn which I'd initiated before I hit the ice..... I've had it once since too, under different circumstances. It does happen!

As above - smoothness is the key and 2nd gear pull-away's are not always practical or the answer, especially when engine management kicks in and causes a surge even at a tick-over speeds.

As for engine braking, spookyb has it absolutely right as there were loads of instances in the past few days (in a front wheel drive car and 4 ton rwd ambulance) where if I hadn't been in 1st gear I would not have been able to go [b]down[/b] hills safely as the abs cut in with the slightest pressure on the brakes.

The roads near my work were snarled up yesterday so almost without thinking took a side road to get around it that I often use, having underestimated how 'steep' one section was.

I guess it's no more than 1 in 7 or thereabouts but was ungritted, little used, and has a 90 deg bend part way down. I stuck it in 1, and idled down with with no problems at all, until in my rear mirror I saw some hafewit coming down behind me sideways. Managed to clear the bend with about 15yds to spare before he went straight on into the gate / post / bank - made a proper mess, airbags and all.

When I went back up to see if he was OK, he was incredulous at how I'd driven down 'as he couldn't brake, couldn't steer, could only slide in a straight line' He wouldn't believe I'd done it completely without brakes.

That's what scares me about driving in this. I couldn't have gone faster and if he'd been 15yds earlier would have hit me instead due to not knowing how to drive in this stuff.

If you aren't sure of how to handle the conditions, pls stay at home.

[edit - staying at home today for just this reason, the other buggers]

I wind down the windows so I can hear the sound of the tyres on the road. You can tell how much grip you have more easily.

I find steady and smooth is the key. Anticipate what is coming up and act accordingly well in advance. Sometimes speed/momentum is your friend if you need to get up a hill.

I also find not driving is great. Stick some big knobbly tyres on and take your bike. Much less stress on short journeys. If you are having trouble just hop off and walk.

Jon Taylor - Member

Neither does engine braking have any ABS, so stay in a higher gear and use the pedal brake.

/Scratches head 🙄

Neither does engine braking have any ABS, so stay in a higher gear and use the pedal brake.

1st gear [b]no[/b] brakes down steep hills is how offroaders do it in slippy mud so I'd assume same applys to snow.

[i]I was on a neutral throttle, under the speed limit, paying attention and the surface looked EXACTLY the same as all the others that day - A bit wet. No input from me at all, save from a gentle right turn which I'd initiated before I hit the ice..... I've had it once since too, under different circumstances. It does happen! [/i]

Had this on my motorbike once, everything goes silent... one of the scariest things thats ever happened to me.

Surely the key is to drive at a constant 22mph, slowing gradually to 2mph to take any corner and touch the brake numerous times on straights whenever another vehicle approaches?
EVEN WHEN IT'S ONLY A BIT WET!!!

ABS IS pretty poor in snow - it just can't cope with so little grip so has a bit of a fit.

Just roll as slowly as you can in a low gear but aim to pull off in 2nd - 1st has a lot of torque and breaks traction too easily. Some autos have a snow function and pull away in 2nd.

As above just be smooth with your driving and expect the worst. Expect a car to come too fast around that icy blind corner, expect a pedestrian to step out in front of you or slip over. Double your expected journey times unless it's all on treated roads - I can guarantee the extra time is a lot less than an insurance claim or worse.

Oh and ignore aggressive drivers and laugh at the fact that they will crash soon.

I wind down the windows so I can hear the sound of the tyres on the road. You can tell how much grip you have more easily.

Well if there was award for biggest poop in a post you'd be second after Jon Taylor.

PeterPoddy +1.

Sometimes there is nothing you can do. Last year was my first year driving on snow. I thought I was getting the hang of it pretty well. I read all the advice I could find, practised a bit in empty carparks, and made several successful trips from Newcastle to Fife in horrible conditions (blizzard, foot of snow, etc).

Then one day I was out for a relatively minor tootle locally. It was cold but the roads were clear and dry. Then it started to snow. Still fine. Heading up a back road, nice and gently, got to a corner, smooth engine brake before it down to around 10mph, nice gentle turn of the wheel: nothing happened. I just kept going straight.

[img] [/img]

Turns out the run-off from the field at the corner had frozen and formed a nice sheet of ice, hidden under the snow, on otherwise ice-free roads. I sat there for about ten minutes and watched another car do exactly the same thing and slide into the field.

Even the recovery lorry was spinning its wheels and sliding as it tried to pull me out!

Live and learn eh?

ABS IS pretty poor in snow

it's 'kin useless

I tend to turn off the traction control too until I get onto the main roads & get more grip

Sky News last night showed a woman in Yorkshire in a Discovery who had forgotten that even 4x4's need to slow down, and she'd put it into a lamppost. Thought entered my head whether she'd only bought it after last winter?
No point having the vehicle without the training/skills to go with it.

Here in Eire loads of drivers floor the accelerators and get surprised their low profile-tyred cars slide sideways. I've even seen a Ford Ranger with Goodyear off-road tyres fitted stuck on a hill I drove up in my Pug.
BTW Good day to go shopping, Tesco carpark was empty this morning, loovely!

That's one of the things I like about my diesel car, I can pull away and drive with no throttle input from me. Just let out the clutch and the car gently pulls away, with no wheel spin.
I drive down my snow-covered road in 2nd gear, again no throttle input. It works really well.

On the subject of using as high a gear as possible Jackie Stewart has some thoughts on the possible contributing effect of low gear driving in the death of his team-mate Francois Cevert in 1973.

Jackie Stewart's book Principles of Performance Driving.

Chapter 4
The High Speed Technique.
"On the subject of gear changing techniques, I have always believed that you should take as little out of the car's transmission as possible that obviously means gentle, sympathetic changes when going up through the gears, but also by using the brakes to their maximum when slowing down, often missing gears while changing down through the box. Many people think that racing drivers go all the way down through the gears in a six-speed box like a machine gun. But that means you're taking on a juggling act: steering, operating the pedals, blippingthe throttle and using the gear lever like a madman. I always chose to change down by jumping through gears.
........from sixth to fourth to second. Thet applies to wet or dry conditions, although you need to be careful how you do iy in the wet, perhaps eliminating all the down changes, using the brakes to knock off your speed, and then finally slipping from sixth to first gear right at the end. [b]Remember, you are not going to stop any faster by using the transmission. Brakes are made to stop a car, gears are primarily for acceleration. Deceleration was not part of the gearbox's original purpose: don't abuse it. [/b]

Chapter 6
The Road Application.

"Somehow many people think that the better the driver you are, the more gear changes you need to make, both up and down, not to mention changing down as many times as possible when you are braking for a stop sign or a round about. Not so! I'd rather use the brakes first because brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

Roll into a corner under braking, even in fourth gear, and put it directly into second gear when the time is right, but not when the car is going to nose down and the rear wheels lock up momentarily while the revs shoot off the clock.

So don't rev the engine violently; change gear early and apply the brakes before down-shift smoothly. The braking comes before the gear changing on the way down, never the other way round. And the brake application again should be smooth and progressive. Before you have even so much as touched the brakes you must consider the way in which you come off the power. Don't come off the throtle pedal abruptly, but ease back on it gently.......
The same should apply when you press the brake. Do it gently and progressively and , before you have finished the braking motion, release the brake again very gently and progressivley, so that you don't feel it coming off.

.....a road car is more softly sprung and greater suspension movement , more roll, more dive and more squat. All the movements are exaggerated compared with a competition car."

t's 'kin useless

I tend to turn off the traction control too until I get onto the main roads & get more grip

Can't turn ABS off in pretty much all cars but yep, traction off (if you have it) is the way forward in snow/ice.

Jackie Stewart's book Principles of Performance Driving.
Chapter 4
[u]The High Speed Technique[/u]...

Yeah because what we need out there are people trying to drive at high speeds because they think they can drive like Jackie Stewart after reading a book. 🙄
Perhaps a chapter on driving on snow and ice might have been more useful?

Remember, you are not going to stop any faster by using the transmission. Brakes are made to stop a car, gears are primarily for acceleration.

But he's talking about driving and stopping quickly. Surely if you are on snow then you don't want to "stop any faster", you want to stop slowly and smoothly without locking the wheels up.

I took our Mazda 323 out on a mercy mission to the in laws after 5 days of snow / frost. They were running out of food and couldn't get out.
I took it gently and smoothly and was fine, was actually catching a 4x4 up on a long snowy climb!
I made the mistake of wanting to take some photos too, as snow on the IOW is pretty rare. Bascially got myself stuck for about 40 mins, BUT I had a spade in the boot and eventually got free. Then had no choice but go down a very icy road which is about 1 in 5. I'd barely been able to ride up it on the bike a few days before.
Just stuck the car in first, took my feet off the pedals and let it do its thing, i was fine.
As said above do everything well in advance and very gently and smoothly and you should be ok.
Given the choice don't drive.

Smoothness is the key to good driving in any conditions. You can get away with driving like a twunt on a dry road but in any low traction situation smoothness is key.

A lot of sensible advice on this thread: engine brake, stay off the brakes where ever possible, hold the steering wheel like its a baby bird and treat the pedals like they have egg shells on them

I wasn't at all surprised at just how many new car-sized holes appeared in the walls and fences on the A675 last year given the idiotic overtaking etc. The only time I very nearly pranged it was heading over Sheephouse Lane. It had been ploughed and gritted up to the car park at Spitler's Edge and for some reason no further. Seeing tyre tracks, I carried on, but was very quickly thinking it would have been quicker to turn round and drive round than stick it in a ditch. I took the long way back home...

Based on a many years experience and regular refresher training, and that the last 10 years of my career have been based on driving different performance vehicles on a daily basis in all conditions (including a frozen lake & all of last night) I stand by what I said. However, I should've added speed is a large factor, and that the driver inputs are all relative to the speed of the vehicle.

I'd agree with jackie stewart entirely; But also add that a car, especially older cars, will lock up the drive wheels and stall the engine on snow and ice. The brakes are the safest way to stop in these conditions. If you're sliding when braking you're going too fast in the 1st place.

Can someone also tell me what neutral throttle is? Im guessing it means neither accelerating nor decelerating. Unless the clutch is dipped and the engine and gearbox are disengaged from each other, they will always, no matter how subtle, have an effect on each other. The correct technique is to release the accelerator, dip the clutch and steer into the slide. If you found that you still went off you were going too fast. Golden rule - you must always be able stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your own side of the road/lane.

My car's not got ABS either so at least it's doing some things right.

Just read that back through; sorry don't mean to sound condescending but speed is so much of a massive factor in all aspects of driving, and how a vehicle will behave that most people don't realise it. The sad fact is that a lot of drivers just don't have very good speed awareness or spatial awareness once sat behind the wheel. In fact, many people, when interviewed about their daily drive into work cannot recall one detail. It's like they've done the journey so many times that they're on autopilot and not thinking about the drive. It's a fairly big deal driving, yet many people once the test is passed just don't "participate" in the daily drive.

Can someone also tell me what neutral throttle is? Im guessing it means neither accelerating nor decelerating

Yeah, that's what I call it. Backing off the gas is 'trailing throttle' too. 🙂

I love snow. Big handbrake turn in the yard this morning! 😀

If you're sliding when braking you're going too fast in the 1st place.

I have also been through various courses and have a done a considerable amount of driving in the Scottish Highlands and the Alps.

Using a low gear to keep the speed down when going downhill was definitely recommended on my last 'blue light' course.

mildred, looking at your driving cv I'm guessing you've been on skid pans? First time I went on one [pre ABS] I was totally gobsmacked by how [b]aggressively[/b] we were taught to use they brakes to stop 😯

Not your textbook method for driving in snow & ice I know, except maybe for an emergency braking situation.

Another technique we used to use in off-road testing [again pre ABS / Traction Control] was to pulse the brakes whilst throttling gently to mimic what would now be Traction Control 🙂

And don't be afraid to keep your speed low, all the * behind in 4wds can just sit there fuming

I got stuck behind one of the aforementioned *'s in a 4x4 this morning doing 15mph and holding the steering wheel in a death grip. Slowed down to 5mph for every corner and this was on a dry relatively snow free road. It hadn't been gritted so all the snow had just been pushed to the sides by the vehicles leaving 2 clear dry lines down it.

I love the way my car slides, it actually handles really quite well in snow. The works car park this morning was empty, had a nice play round in there. 🙂

Another technique we used to use in off-road testing [again pre ABS / Traction Control] was to pulse the brakes whilst throttling gently to mimic what would now be Traction Control

Cadence braking

That how I still do even with ABS

Yes, cadence braking but used to reduce wheelspin whilst driving uphill.

LOL ABS. Wouldn't like to be that guys insurance company.

Avoid touching brakes, steering wheel or throttle as much as possible.

If you have to touch them touch them gently. Caress them like you would a fine women.

Can't turn ABS off in pretty much all cars

Taking the fuse out does the job on most cars if you don't want ABS.

My car's not got ABS either so at least it's doing some things right.

In snow and ice ONLY. Otherwise, not good.

Like a motorbike in the rain
- plan further ahead than you would normally
- ride/drive well within your plan
- do everything slowly, smoothly and gently
- remember if it goes wrong, it'll probably be horribly wrong
- don't do it if you don't have to

Caress them like you would a [s]fine[/s] ugly women.

I'm with theotherjonv and others, high gears when your moving off and going uphill (to avoid wheels spin), the uphill bit requiring some anticipation of which gear to be in, so as not to have to change down halfway up. Going downhill, I've always used low gears to maintain a steady slow speed, whilst not having to use the brakes to stop the car increasing its momentum. Changing down a gear whilst going downhill, I engage the lower gear really gently, just letting the clutch out a touch, then pressing it back in and repeating until the car is slowed to fully engage the lower gear without causing it to lurch. On steep downhills, I stop at the top, engage 1st and let the car crawl down, resisting the temptation to touch the brakes, never had a problem.
Like someone says above, it's also nice having a diesel car where you can move off and drive around at slow speeds without ever having to touch the accelerator.

As an aside, I drove a spanking new freelander hse td4 last night in pretty horrendous conditions. I've no idea how much they cost but wow! The electrics in this car are very good indeed. Even driving in a manner that should've unruffled it, it was difficult to bamboozle it. The Hill Descent Control is incredible; on hills where even the slightest touch of the brakes had us mimicking a sledge, it never failed to control it. Cafe creme leather was horrible though.

If you drive everywhere in snow and ice as if your car as no brakes , and only engine braking to bring it to a standstill, you stand a much better chance of arriving at your destination intact.
In freash snow it is sometimes better to try to slow with the handbrake , if your ABS is having a fit, as the locked wheel should push a ramp of snow in front of it . Beware fishtailing , altough normally releasing the handbrake will allow the car to straighten.
If its going orribly wrong in a slow mo ' Im not slowing despite the fact i'm only doing 20mph way', and the abs is not doing any retardation ,then the handbrake can help by steering the rear of the car away from impending doom. Use the handbrake to lock the rears to put the rear in a ditch / hedge / bank sideways before smashing into the queue of stationary traffic. Locked rears will follow the camber , this is last resort only , and might keep your no claims intact.

Defenders have old tech transmission handbrakes so applying while rolling could be ermmm interesting...

Watched a guy using his ABS to get him round a corner today.

Unfortunately he ended up in the hedge.

I actually almost got my brother to soil his boxers when I slammed on the brakes earlier today. The ABS kicked in and juddered the car. He was "impressed" (he doesn't do scared, he drives a Punto). Gonna take it to the Tesco carpark later [s]for some spins[/s] to go shopping.

all the **** behind in 4wds can just sit there fuming

I tend to just fly down the middle of the road, overtaking people in their measly 2wd cars, showering them in snow and slush in the process.

Surely the key is to drive at a constant 22mph, slowing gradually to 2mph to take any corner and touch the brake numerous times on straights whenever another vehicle approaches?
EVEN WHEN IT'S ONLY A BIT WET!!!

I tend to just fly down the middle of the road, overtaking people in their measly 2wd cars, showering them in snow and slush in the process.

And like most others in 4x4s, you soon discover the laws of physics apply to you too

And like most others in 4x4s, you soon discover the laws of physics apply to you too

There was a tad of sarcasm behind my post 😉

Not everyone who owns a car, that has drive to all 4 of the wheels, is an idiot. The same way that there is plenty of idiots who drive normal cars amongst the sensible people out there.

Why are you buting a 4x4 for work I was asked nearly a year ago.

1) I wasn't stuck on a verge for an hour today trying to dig my Transit out today like the bloke I was working with.

2) I wanted one.

3) I'm working in the North East and am not really worried about my journey home tomorrow to 3ft of snow in Derbyshire.

4) I wanted one.

5) If it gets me to work for just one week where I'd normally be stranded in a van, then it has saved me £1500 off it's purchase price straight away.

Saying that, it's bloody scary in 2wd/RWD and even in 4wd with SUV semi-road/off road tyres it has to be treated with care, as the back end will come out. Even on dual carriageways I take it steady when switching lanes and only overtake at a reasonable speed if there's snow on the tarmac.

Ideally need some new tyres, but am loathed to ditch the current ones with a couple of thousand miles still left on them

Buting a 4wd can only end in a headache. 8)