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On 01 May, beavers became protected in Scotland.
Since then, SNH have approved ⅔ of licenses for lethal control or dam removal (of which all but 5 were for lethal control) and 87 beavers out of an estimated population of 450 in the Tay catchment have been shot.
Is it just me, or does this seem a bit… inconsistent with the protected status?
Where was WCA during all this? 🤔
I think a beaver would struggle to fit in that trap.
Put it another way. A few years back there were zero beavers in the Tay catchment. Now there are at least 343 of them. And don't forget that they are rodents and breed like rodents, so be careful what you wish for....
PS I have nothing against beavers. But since we live in the UK, by and large in a managed landscape (certainly the Tay Valley is one), it is not unreasonable that we manage all aspects of that landscape for the compromised benefit of everyone who needs to use it.
No trap but I have a special 'beaver lure' 🙂
As well as what welsh farmer says the Tay valley beavers were not reintroduced in a controlled fashion. Its an accidental or even deliberate unsanctioned release. Its not the sort of land they would have been reintroduced on deliberately. Beavers do a great deal of good for the environment in wildish land. A pest in cultivated land. I'd rather they trapped them in live traps and relocated them tho.
Its all about compromise. Beavers have no natural predators in Scotland ( I don't think?)
I get that there’s a need for control (and in some cases lethal control) but killing 20% of the population in the 7 months since they became protected seems a tad excessive.
It would be interesting to know why some/all of those that were shot couldn’t have been relocated, either to the smaller officially sanctioned population in Knapdale or to the various English/Welsh reintroduction schemes (as it’s no longer possible to import from European populations).
Also remember that the Tay never floods and so wouldn't benefit from the sort of upstream damming and pool flooding that beavers carry out naturally and that might otherwise mitigate the effects of intensive farming and forestry.
SNH have also been somewhat closer to landowner interests than conservation ones in the past.
Roseanna Cunningham is the Perthshire MSP, and environment minister. She is trying to keep a few of the local farmers happy.
it is not unreasonable that we manage all aspects of that landscape for the compromised benefit of everyone who needs to use it.
Well, provided that happens in a way that is forward looking and doesn't perpetuate practices that are demonstrably harmful or only benefit narrow interests, of course. That's why reintroductions need to have widespread buy-in to be successful.
Wildlife licensing is really about legal compliance and demonstrating the minimum requirements have been met though.
Were they near salmon rivers?
I get that there’s a need for control (and in some cases lethal control) but killing 20% of the population in the 7 months since they became protected seems a tad excessive
What percentage did the population exspand in those 7 months?
@WorldClassAccident Even if they were, the evidence apparently says they increase the populations of salmonids.
@Cheesybeanz Don’t know the answer to that, but I’d be surprised if it was by anything approaching 20%
There have been wild beavers on the Tay for almost 20 years. They are not a new arrival. They are thriving, as the environment is well suited to them. Just as they would have a few hundred years ago.
As the population expands, they will spread out further onto tributaries. Doesn't necessarily mean more in particular area.
Seems SNH are embarrassed that they are doing so well. Unlike the over-managed damp squib at Knapdale.
They have been hugely successful in the Tay catchment. They are present in all the tributaries and much of the standing water in the catchment - far more successful than those in the Knapdale trial. A licensed kill of 87 is not going to damage the population, but may help with landowner relations which may result in better wider ranging environmental outcomes.
@oldtennisshoes So why not translocations some of the Tay ones to Knapdale?
I'm a beaver fan.
[strong]ratherbeintobago[/strong] wrote:
So why not translocations some of the Tay ones to Knapdale?
You mean like the English did with the Scottish Highlanders during the clearances? 😉
Not sure what effect that had on the local populations in the areas they were moved to but I am bettin it wasn't all positive!
Roseanna Cunningham is the Perthshire MSP, and environment minister
As well as appeasing local farmers she's also keen on a Sea Eagle cull in the western isles at a time when the rest of the world is wondering why so many raptors are being killed in Scotland.
@welshfarmer More likely hybrid vigour or something.
@munrobiker It’s good to see that Westminster hasn’t got all the idiots.
SNH have managed to kill most of the beavers they tried to relocate. eg when wiping out the population on the River Beauly.
I am a fan of the beavers being there.
But I am also a fan of balancing how quickly the things are breeding - the Tay catchment is my local paddling spot, and you can see the huge impact quickly.
I am told, by SNH source, that the Knapdale population and Tay population will mix within a couple of years. They also suggest they will be in Aviemore and the Spey pretty pronto at the rate they are going too...
If a cull helps appease the landowner/human concerns, and they are still succesful, then that is fine. I suspect (but couldn't prove) that if we don't cull then like the deer death by starvation is worse.
Also remember that the Tay never floods
uhuh.
I thought they were spreading into the Forth now?
Deer are slightly different as there are a lot of rivers in the UK with no beavers.
Also remember that the Tay never floods
uhuh.
🙂 I suspect you know I was taking the piss.
@oldtennisshoes So why not translocations some of the Tay ones to Knapdale?
Until relatively recently there was a question about them being the same species or subspecies - I can't remember the details, but there was bit of subspecieisism going on.
Also, it appears that Knapdale isn't really that great an environment for beavers. Which is impressive considering how well they've done in every scrappy bit of water course in the Tay catchment.
Plus, thinking back to the Uist Wader Project - there's always been unease about mammal translocations.
I suspect (but couldn’t prove) that if we don’t cull then like the deer death by starvation is worse.
I suspect we are a very long way from that.
@oldtennisshoes Ah - right. I don’t think the beavers in the UK are going to be of the same subspecies though, as much as it matters (ie. Eurasian rather than N American) - IIRC most of them are from Bavaria but then there are other populations (e.g. Tay) where no-one really knows where they came from.
For whatever reason there doesn’t appear to be as much documentation of what’s happening in Scotland (or Wales for that matter) compared with England where BACE have a blog detailing what’s going on.
For whatever reason there doesn’t appear to be as much documentation of what’s happening in Scotland
From some things I've been told, beavers aren't the only under the radar project slowly moving along...
I'm curious - why do landowners want them killed? I've only ever spoken to one farmer with beavers on his land and he was delighted.
@matt_outandabout I gather the lynx project is having another go?
@stevious According to e.g. Gow, there are a lot of farmers who’re sold on the idea but don’t live in areas where there are beavers, either because they’ve not spread there, or because it’s England/Wales. Don’t know how accurate that is, or whether translocations are possible. I suppose it might depend on whether increased groundwater is a benefit, or whether dammed drainage is a pain.
Stevoius
Flooding grazing?
lynx
Yes.
And Boar.
Trossachs to Cairngorms forest connection and reforestation all over (with matching exclusion of deer).
Meant to ask earlier - isn’t there something about beavers not being able to spread past the great glen?
(e.g. Tay) where no-one really knows where they came from.
A man with a van from Alyth - allegedly.
Rewilding is happening all over the UK as marginal agricultural areas are falling out of production due to low commodity prices and the fact that no one wants the hassle of the (very hard) work involved in using said areas for production. I have a 30 acre woodland on my farm that is very steep and over 1000 ft above sea level. Traditionally it was used for sheep grazing. I have barely used it for such for the past 20 years, and have fenced 3/4 of it to exclude stock completely. The other day, while walking through the wood I came across a Roe deer. This is the first roe deer seen in the valley for over 100 years. I have also seen 3 hares, 2 red kites, and otters within he past week on the farm. Even 20 years ago none of those species were here.
The Knapdale beavers were brought in from Norway. Supposedly they are most similar to the native Scottish beavers, and similar climate etc.
Whereas most other private collections are from Germany. And probably most of the Tay beavers.
I'm not sure if there is any real difference between them.
There are other ways of controlling beaver impacts. ie putting diverter pipes into dams. Instead of just killing them.
Your right @welshfarmer.
I think it's well overdue looking to support land use like you small woodland, which benefits us all, not just pure food production.
Up here I do think we have some chuffing difficult decisions about how we move from current situation to one that's more diverse, while earning income for rural communities and playing the long and balanced game.
I'm glad beavers are here, hoping I'm going to see one this year while out paddling. I think some dawn floats down the Earn are needed.
Beavers have no natural predators in Scotland
[tongue in cheek] Lynx re-introduction?..wolf?...Bear? [/tongue in cheek]
Wolf has been proposed, IIRC.
I think the difficulty was that enclosing them in a big enough enclosure was problematic, and if they eat some hikers…
I have no moral issues with reintroduced apex predators but local people need to buy in. Fencing them in is wrong. That's a zoo not rewilding and who pays for the sheep that get eaten?
I'm with TJ.
Our country hasn't had to deal with big predators for so long, it's just not acceptable to the population.
Imo, the lynx is pushing it.
Boars I'm good with.
Frankly we should put the effort into our existing wildcat.
Who pays for the environmental destruction caused by sheep farming? Sheep farmers are reliant on subsidies, why not pay them to improve the environment instead.
https://www.monbiot.com/2017/01/04/the-hills-are-dead/