NO dyna ti Before the smoking ban this pub was fairly empty. Now its heaving. Still the same number of pubs round here. Its heaving because its moved with the times. Been a big demographic shift locally as well. This bar used to be the hookers hangout.
AA - I am so hip I cannot see out of my own pelvis
*preens with manbun*
The pub garden smoking ban is a drag on our freedoms -
David Mitchell
But the advocates of the ban tried to claim that it was not an assault on liberty, by citing the health impact of passive smoking.
Are they really going to make the same claim when it’s being done outdoors? That smoking in pub gardens significantly shortens the lives of significant numbers of non-smokers? More than driving non-electric vehicles or smelting steel or lighting bonfires on 5 November, activities the government is not proposing to ban?
People against this ban seem to hold personal liberty in high esteem, above all else. Presumably because they don't like being told what to do. However smoking can really **** you up, and a lot of people who are ****ed up and dying seem to regret ever starting, so I can see that banning smoking entirely has merit.
Personally, I'm addicted to sugar in some way or other and will happily admit that I wish I could only buy decent healthy food.
Let’s just ban everything then, in case anyone does anything that negatively impacts their health and possibly later regrets it.
I’ve ended up in A&E on a number of occasions from my clumsy stupidity while out mountain biking, once having my face stitched and glued back together (which was fun).
Following your logic, let’s ban mountain biking too then, eh? What then, after we’ve banned that? Rugby, surely? Skateboarding? Heading footballs? In fact, let’s just ban football! BMXing? Definitely Trampolining? That’s got to be on ‘the list’ Cakes? Biscuits? Sugary death which people can’t be trusted with. Playing Russian Roulette with Mr Kipling.
Apparently quite a few people were injured last years from being hit with rolled up wet towels. For the sake of the survival of civilisation we definitely need to ban towels. Just in case.
Ban it all! Ban everything!
Job jobbed!
Hmmm it's an odd one to go after as a matter of urgency.
The outside smoking thing not being a big public health issue on it's own, what with ciggy smoke quickly diffusing in air. I think you pretty much have to blow it up peoples noses or directly into their mouths (who does that to a stranger in an outdoor public setting) for there to be a serious risk of illness from passive inhalation. In a confined space different story of course!
The first smoking ban definitely accelerated the closure of pubs across the country and this proposal will finish off the remainders that are limping along. Those that don't have much outdoor space, can't become family restaurant venues that also serve alcohol and those in locations with poor footfall/premises in secondary and tertiary areas of towns and cites.
It pushed loads of old hands/tenants out of the industry and fueled the already predatory behaviour of chain pubs stitching up new tenants with onerous leases doomed to failure for all but the most exceptional tenants!
There's some rather extreme reactions on here to a pretty light weight ban. Personally it's a pretty pointless exercise as it's almost totally unenforceable and even of it was the affects would be minimal.
However and I'm all for a full smoking ban, we need to introduce the age related ban the Torys were talking about, stamp out smoking for good. The UK is way ahead of many other European countries, I'm in Germany at the moment and smoking is much more prevalent here and in Mediterranean countries it's still quite widespread.
The civil liberties arguments against a ban would be fine if we all had to pay for our own health care directlu etc. In which case do want you and take full responsibility for the consequences. We don't live in that society though (thank God) so there is some quid pro quo between the state looking after you when you need it and how you behave.
It shouldn’t really come as a shock that if you have 18 pubs and 17 have gone bust then the remaining 18th is a bit busy.
there are still dozens of local pubs and none have shut - because they adapted to the change. there are actually more places to drink around here than 30 years ago
The first smoking ban definitely accelerated the closure of pubs across the some parts of the country
fixed it for you
Those that don’t have much outdoor space, can’t become family restaurant venues that also serve alcohol and those in locations with poor footfall/premises in secondary and tertiary areas of towns and cites.
Two pubs that stopped doing food and have have no outside space have thrived as well.
Well run pubs that can adapt thrive. The competition locally has meant pubs need to innovate and find a niche for themselves. These niches include "traditional bar with good beer"
However and I’m all for a full smoking ban, we need to introduce the age related ban the Torys were talking about, stamp out smoking for good.
This really is the proper answer. Remove smoking from people who have never known it in the first place, and you make the problem go away with minimum fuss. Smoking in beer gardens and other public places will gradually fall, and the kids who’ve never known it won’t give a shit. Although, as the parent of a kid who’d get caught by the 2009 law if it’s enacted, his age group really aren’t interested in smoking. Or drinking for that matter.
Falling off a mountain bike has no detrimental impact on anyone else. On Saturday in a car park there was a family with young child in push chair, both parents standing round him smoking. Unfortunately that child has no choice whether they inhale the passive smoke.
This is why there needs to be a complete ban. In some situations the Government need to act for the greater good and wider benefits to the population. Health out trumps anything else. There would be no negative impact in banning smoking, I guess if you are a smoker you will disagree and still think it’s ok to light up in a beer garden, next to a family having lunch.
TJ you know your local experience doesn't reflect the situation in most other places? I Googled from idle curiosity and found that Edinburgh has the highest ratio of pubs to population in the whole of the UK.7.4 pubs per 10,000 people in Edinburgh, the UK national average is 5.4. So you are starting from a much higher base and Edinburgh's tourist destination status trade must help. I don't know, but I suspect in similar fashion, pubs in London would be able to weather financial and legislative burdens better than provincial pubs.
Where I live pubs are closing. Same in smaller towns, villages and rural areas all over the country. The closure of a single pub in a village has a much bigger impact than a handful closing in a large city. Nationally 80 pubs on average close every month, that is the figure for those that cease to be pubs and never reopen, not those that change hands. I am a life long non smoker who strongly supported the indoor ban. A pub garden ban though feels petty, disproportionate and largely ineffective as a public health measure. And likely to adversely affect pub licensees who live a precarious existence at the best of times.
Government need to act for the greater good and wider benefits to the population. Health out trumps anything else.
Have you thought about the logical progression of that? Beyond smoking? How many foods, drinks, modes of transport and recreational activities are you prepared to see banned for the 'greater good'?
Yes - I have said before this is regional and did so in my post above " across the some parts of the country"
I am just pointing out two things
1) this is not universal across the country
2) well run pubs who find a good niche will weather this
Edinburgh as a whole has a significantly increasing population and my area is a gentrified old port area
Some of the local places have a no smoking at their outside tables policy as well
In rural Scotland brexit caused huge damage to the pubs as they were used to having a lot of seasonal staff made up of young EU folk on gap years. Pubs have had to reduce opening hours because they cannot get staff ending up in turning away punters. I was discussing this with a rural pub manager just the other day.
Falling off a mountain bike has no detrimental impact on anyone else.
Neither does smoking outdoors. But if you’re arguing passive smoking outdoors puts a strain on the NHS, try visiting A&E on a Saturday afternoon? They should rename it the middle class sporting injuries ward.
On Saturday in a car park there was a family with young child in push chair, both parents standing round him smoking. Unfortunately that child has no choice whether they inhale the passive smoke.
And banning smoking in pub beer gardens is going to stop that how exactly? The kind of person who’s happy smoking around kids in pushchairs is just going to do that anyway. Most people, even smokers (booo, hiss… bastards!) wouldn’t be so inconsiderate and stupid.
As Uncle Jezza is regaling us all with anecdotal pub stories, I was sat in a particularly nice pub beer garden last night. One half of the beer garden had ash trays for the smokers, the other half signs on each table saying ‘no smoking’. Any pub landlord can do this. They can ban smoking altogether on their premises if they like. Most don’t, for obvious reasons
Is it a matter for government to get involved in with legislation? Of course it isn’t
I thought when I saw the proposals that this would just be supported by the type of sanctimonious busybodies who think they should be able to ban anything they don’t like and airily lecture other people on how they should live their lives.
…and so this thread has proved. God spare us from people who think they know best what’s best for us
I’m the very worst thing… a reformed smoker. Having packed in a decade ago I can’t stand the smell of fag smoke. It’s absolutely minging! I can’t believe I used to do it, but if other people want too, while having no actual detrimental effect on others ( other than upsetting the pearl-clutchers) then let them get on with it
Falling off a mountain bike has no detrimental impact on anyone else.
Ermmm - it really does. It uses up scarce resources. Lothian had to get a 4wd ambulance to get people out of Glentress IIRC and there is a significant number of injuries treated at BGH every weekend
Long term of course cycling is very good for health but it does not need to be full on MTBing for that benefit
Lothian had to get a 4wd ambulance to get people out of Glentress IIRC and there is a significant number of injuries treated at BGH every weekend
I heard the Welsh NHS send doctors to Merthyr Tydfil A&E to get fracture and trauma experience from BPW. Anecdotal, so I don't know if it's true. BPW also have their own ambulance, treatment room and 3 or 4 first aid responders. Every time I've been there I've seen an ambulance and/or mountain rescue team looking to recover a casualty. I expect BPW are coy about he stats for business reasons, but there must be a significant impact on local health services. Albeit at least partly offset by employment and income to the local economy.
I don't think the impact of MTBers injuries is huge in relation to the total need of the NHS. But to claim no detriment is wrong
But the question is, is it more of a burden on the NHS than the tsunami of demand for healthcare caused by passive smoking in beer gardens, which unchecked will bring the entire health service to its knees?
heard the Welsh NHS send doctors to Merthyr Tydfil A&E to get fracture and trauma experience from BPW.
Yeah I doubt that very much. Major city hospitals have trauma centres, so a bike park in wales will not provide much experience.
Fair enough Drac, I know you are qualified to say that. I did acknowledge it was anecdotal.
It certainly used to be the case that the number one cause.for absence from work in the Lothian and Borders Fire Service was fractures due to MTB falls (usually at Glentress) 🙂
Falling off a mountain bike has no detrimental impact on anyone else.
Neither does smoking outdoors
Now then....
It’s all relative innit?
We’re not talking about Roy Castle performing night after night for years in windowless working mens clubs where everyone is chain smoking.
We’re talking about getting the odd waft of a bit of second hand lambert and butler while sat in a field
Nobody is going to get lung cancer
Smoking needs removing from society... go smoke in your own home if you have to. In this day and age when we all know the dangers, it's beyond belief that people still take it up. Vaping is another bunch of shit we have to put up with - supposedly to encourage people to stop smoking, it's now become an epidemic in it's own right, right down to schoolkids, primary and secondary. Our local McD is overrun with vaping schoolkids at home time. I'd soon get complaints if I went and pissed next to someone's table while they were eating - same scenario, equally disgusting. Tired of the stink of both.
I can’t stand the smell of fag smoke. It’s absolutely minging!
This is where I'm at. I accept there is next to no risk of me contracting cancer due to someone smoking in a pub garden. It's just that I want to sit outside in the sun without someone's fag or vape (potentially even more revolting) smoke drifting around. Give the smokers a nice hermetically sealed room indoors away from the rest of us.
But we haven’t, in fact life expectancy is declining.
I have a sneaky feeling there are a couple of other recentish factors which have contributed to the slowdown in life expectancy improvements.
Weirdly, another one may have been the fallout from a cohort of ageing women smokers - as there was a noticeable bump in women taking up smoking during a period when fewer men were doing it.
I'm a non-smoking asthmatic weakling who doesn't like sitting in a fug of second-hand smoke, but even I think this is pushing it a bit, and would rather the government expended their energy cutting fossil fuel air pollution, exposure to mould spore via our terrible housing stock, and improving access to respiratory medicine, all of which would have a much greater impact on mortality and quality of life for millions.
Hopefully as we see any health harms of vaping, particularly in the young, start to emerge over the next decade or so, we will move quickly to nip that one in the bud, and save a whole generation from the kind of suffering experienced by their grandparents and parents.
I, and many others, prefer smoke & vape free.
What surprises me is that market forces haven't sorted this out for themselves. Or do smokers drink more?
In rural Scotland brexit caused huge damage to the pubs as they were used to having a lot of seasonal staff made up of young EU folk on gap years. Pubs have had to reduce opening hours because they cannot get staff ending up in turning away punters. I was discussing this with a rural pub manager just the other day.
Whilst you are at least partly right - a rural pub manager who wanted to solve this could easily find UK temp staff - but they will need to solve the acomodation challenge. Decades ago places used to provide free or very low cost digs - but the owners realised they could make more money from them as Air BnBs! Perhaps itinerant EU workers were more willing to live in overpacked squalor.
Interesting to see the correlation between those who are keen on banning smoking but are also in favour of legalising drugs...
Hopefully as we see any health harms of vaping, particularly in the young, start to emerge over the next decade or so
What needs to happen here, quickly, is a review of vape advertising legislation. Cigarettes are sold in grim-looking packets hidden behind closed doors with minty ones banned now even. Vape juice is front and centre on the little side counter in supermarkets, all fruit flavours and bright colourful packaging. I don't know if the display is empty boxes but if they aren't it's only a matter of time before a little kid thinks "ooh, sweeties" and it shouldn't take a tragedy to get it under control.
I'm all for vaping instead of smoking, not least because it doesn't cling to you like cigarette smoke does. I don't get up the morning after a night out wanting to burn all my clothes because someone on the next table was on the blue raspberry all night. But it is very obviously targeting the "get them hooked nice and early" market. Like many people his age, my dad started smoking when he was like 12 or something, I can't see him being suddenly wooed by a bottle of cherry cola sucked out of a cyberman's willy.
Its not easy to find temp staff in rural scotland. Thats a part of the issue - its very seasonable
Interesting to see the correlation between those who are keen on banning smoking but are also in favour of legalising drugs…
Its not illogical to be in favour of both.
Reminds tho of an instance in Canada while I ws there. There is a completely legal market in cannabis but there was nowhere legal for me to smoke it hardly. Not in my hotel, not in public parks, not withing 3 m of a doorway or ventilator intake, not outside pubs, not on the beach
IInteresting to see the correlation between those who are keen on banning smoking but are also in favour of legalising drugs…
I wouldn't necessarily say I'm "keen" on banning smoking, but I would support further increasing restrictions which smokers would probably see at the same thing! I'd also support (or in fact be even keener on) significant restrictions on vapes. It might seem odd then that I would be generally open to legalisation of other drugs - not to encourage uptake, but to undermine the organised criminals and dealers, generate increased tax revenue, control the quality of the "product" etc. Whilst removing the criminal association that makes people trapped by drugs also become trapped in the judicial system rather than health system. Clearly you can't put it in the hands of "business" though as tabacco and vapes have shown us what happens then.
What surprises me is that market forces haven’t sorted this out for themselves.
this is what seems to have happened at least in part locally to me. Huge competition with 25 plus eating and drinking establishments with 400m of my flat. they have had to adapt and attract new crowds to replace the hardened smokers who go out less. Some of the places have banned smoking on their outdoor tables.
Big demographic change locally but huge changes in the way the bars operate as well in large part
Vapes to help folk stop smoking - great.
Openly advertised and being taken up by kids or by non smokers - a real helth issue for the future.
Its heaving because its moved with the times. Been a big demographic shift locally as well. This bar used to be the hookers hangout.
So the pub you're were in used to be populated by neds and dirty old men and has now been bought out by some trendy hipsters and has benefitted from gentrification in the local area. That's why it's popular not because no one smokes.
Government need to act for the greater good and wider benefits to the population. Health out trumps anything else.
No it doesn't. If I want to kill myself by smoking, drugs, alcohol, mountain biking or other dangerous sports like skiing and climbing that's my right and it's got f*** all to do wiith the govt or handwringing idiots who should mind their own business. Passive smoking in beer gardens harms no one. If non-smokers don't like the smell they can go to a pub which voluntarily doesn't allow smoking in beer gardens.
On Saturday in a car park there was a family with young child in push chair, both parents standing round him smoking. Unfortunately that child has no choice whether they inhale the passive smoke.
And yet it's perfectly fine for that child to breathe in the pollution from passing vehicles in that car park? Or are you suggesting we ban car parks and cars too? If you're going to go down the 'won't someone please think of the children' line of argument there are many things that should be banned ahead of smoking a cigarette outside.
Openly advertised and being taken up by kids or by non smokers – a real helth issue for the future.
You can get juice with zero nicotine, it's basically flavoured steam.
Who, if anyone, uses it I don't know. But it's an option if you want to hang with the kids who think vaping is cool.
So the pub you’re were in used to be populated by neds and dirty old men and has now been bought out by some trendy hipsters and has benefitted from gentrification in the local area. That’s why it’s popular not because no one smokes.
Thats a part of it but also the new punters are being attracted to the bars by the change in ethos and lack of smoking. Non smoking pubs have attracted a new clientele
Even the trad bars are doing good business
Even the places that ban smoking outside are doing good business.
