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There’s something slightly ironic about a dying pub industry being propped up by people killing themselves but there is it.
You know what? I don't think it is.
You know that the idea of a pub – a public house – is that it contains ALL members of the public, not vetted members of the middle class, uncontaminated by frightful working class habits?
So middle class = non-smoker, working class = smoker?
Never really sure why pubs closing is seen as such a bad thing, they only produce pissed idiots anyway.
So so wrong.....
There’s something slightly ironic about a dying pub industry being propped up by people killing themselves but there is it
So what business is it of yours, or the governments, in not letting all concerned get on with it?
I’m normally unconcerned about middle class virtue signalling except when it comes to legislation that applies to us all and has serious implications for the real world.
And who’s going to enforce this shit? Like the average boozer landlord is going to have a stern word with anyone having a fag outside their pub
Middle class, health-Nazi, virtue signalling bollocks
Source?
the number of pubs that have closed, perhaps?
@convert - apologies for my comments being more than a touch insensitive, given your own personal experience
"So middle class = non-smoker, working class = smoker?"
Basically yes, it's why you can buy a bottle of wine for the same price as it was 25 years ago but fags have gone up tenfold.
A massive tax on predominantly the working classes.
"Yeah smoking drugs in doors is the peak of awesomeness in 2024. Proper edgy."
Edgy or not, he had the best night he had in ages and I for one am happy for him. Whatever happened to having a bit of fun?
The irony of people drinking themselves to death in public houses seems to be lost on some people. A pub isn't a health spa, (although the social health benefits of pubs should not be ignored) it's more likely that it'll be the alcohol that kills you than a bit of passive smoking in the pub garden.
Swap diesel for any motorised vehicle…. As if petrol engines were only emitting the scent of roses.
That's not what I meant and you know it.
Personally, I'm agnostic about smoking in open spaces, but even as a smoker trying to quit..I find the smell from things like pipes and cigars horrible, and people who vape and put out huge clouds of cherry flavour crap, even worse..
I mean, if you are vaping to quit tobacco, great, but you don't need to be huffing and puffing cumulonimbus clouds to do that.
My local has a smoking area in the garden, which is kind of away from the main outdoor seating area, and that's fine by me.
If only people got as upset about the forthcoming austerity implications than their ability to want to smoke a fag in a location where cheap supermarket booze had already killed its ability to thrive.
The middle classes are currently keeping the pub/hospitality industry going by the way. Because they're the ones with the money to spend!
Still it's good to see Starmer with all his priorities right.
The market on all this stuff has shifted - things don't stay the same with or without government interference.
(I can remember when you could smoke in the cinema - I mean what a terrible experience that was.)
Have you bothered to read the reasoning?
Still much much bigger issues.
And let's please not go down the path of burden of money on the tax payer for the NHS. Cos that's drivel.
There are a million and one better things that could achieve a healthy environment that Labour could be doing.
Front the guardian:
However, health experts backed the idea, while polling showed it had majority support among every demographic and voting group apart from Reform UK supporters.
😉
Isn't this being driven by NHS costs now being higher than the money taken from tobacco revenue. % of smokers has reduced from 50% to 13% so in the past that 50% were more than paying for the NHS costs of them killing themselves whereas now the 13% are not covering it and there is a 6BN 'black hole" each year as the 50% who did smoke are still dying and costing lots of money. Left long enough it would balance out as the 13% would cover the NHS costs again due to less smokers left to die.
But if smoking is bad for people (it is) and it costs more money to deal with health issues than it takes (it does) then just simply make cigarettes illegal. Yes, vaping would obviously fit the gap but at the moment vaping is not expected to be as bad as smoking although it is pretty obvious that breathing something into your lungs on a very regular basis is not going to go without consequence.
It does appear that middle class smokers are few and far between. Those on low:income or benefits seem to spend the most on cigarettes, for reasons I don’t understand.
Ban smoking and the hospitality industry will have to adapt. Consider those who work in beer gardens, do they want to breathe in second hand smoke ?
The issue isn’t solely around pubs either. Are bus companies and train operators going out of business if you can’t have a cigarette while waiting for a train or bus?
Most Costa coffee shops have ash trays on outside tables. Will they go bust?
Play parks, should the kids need to inhale others second hand smoke whilst on the swings ?
Sometimes this place is so detached from reality, it defies belief. Maybe touch base with the real world from time to time
I find myself thinking this on a variety of topics.
I sometimes wonder if this forum is made up of a collection of bots living in a coffee shop in Hebden Bridge
Basically yes, it’s why you can buy a bottle of wine for the same price as it was 25 years ago but fags have gone up tenfold.
The single biggest chunk of cash on your £5.50 bottle of wine is tax, you're actually only buying 21p worth of wine for £5.50, 91p in VAT and £2.33 in Duty. And its definitely not the same price it was 25 year ago.
Source: completely not double checked Google result, pricing from 2023.
FWIW, im not bothered by people smoking in Pub gardens and I agree with "some" of the commentary about the negative impact on social networks, I know of enough locals where its a lifeline to some, the examples im thinking of are usually older and living alone. Although Binners appears to have over-egged the reverse snobbery.
Of the things others do that impact me in order:
1/ ICE cars (EV owner)
2/ stagnant water mosquito breeding grounds; water butts, ponds, flower posts, badly maintained gutters... .
3/ Wood burning ( I own and use a stove and will stop when electricity is zero fossil fuels)
4/ cleaning products, perfumes and the chemicals used in shops, banks administrations etc.
5/ dogs: shit, noise and dangerous off lead.
6/Cats, shitting pissing stinking things.
Smoking and vaping just don't register despite living in a place with a lot of smokers. They're generally very considerate.
Whatever happened to having a bit of fun?
indeed. If the ****ers who are offended by a tiny bit of fag smoke are so bothered they can always stay at home and leave the rest of us to have a good night out. The pub landlords won’t give a shit, as binners sad it’s not them who keep the pubs going, it’s people like me who are in there every night after work and at the weekend.
I was asked/told to stop vaping outside a local pub/restaurant a couple of years ago, it's the owners policy that it is not allowed anywhere on the premises including the car park (which i didn't know at the time). I didn't try to argue the point that I was outside with no one anywhere near me as it's a privately owned business that is free to decide if they allow it or not, just like anywhere else already is. It's also the only establishment in my area that know of that does this and it usually looks pretty busy when I pass. I can only assume the other bars in the area don't see the need to follow suit as their regular customers aren't in favour of such restrictions
COVID has been responsible for shutting down more pubs than the smoking ban.
Plus the rise in minimum wage and employer NI contribution going up.
The pub co that owns many pubs charge so much for rent and force the tenants to buy beer at exorbitant prices the business becomes unviable
Very cheap beer from Aldi and Lidl, less people who drink less , the cost of living crisis and the fact going to the pub or turning on the heating is an issue for many people is why so many pubs have shut in the last few years
You lot don't hang around with many young people do you? Smoking is definitely on the up with Gen Z middle class people. They're the people I see smoking most these days (despite having until recently worked in the construction industry).
Ex smoker. Hate smoking. Hate the acrid foul stench. Feel sorry for the all the girls I snogged when I used to smoke. Gave up smoking when the indoor ban came in.
But I really don’t have too much of an issue about smoking in pub gardens. I think an outright ban is a step too far.
Most smokers I know realise it stinks & do make efforts to minimise the effect.
The usual depressing descent into the country's curse - class. It's 2024 and it seems worse than ever.
What keeps folk on lower incomes out is price, and not just lower incomes. Pubs are almost a thing of the past now for me. Filthy air ban never affected me directly, just made pubs attractive as I never got into that rubbish third rate drug.
While smoke is disgusting, the beer garden thing appears to be distraction as with the outside ventilation it is not an assault on the health of workers which was the reason for cleaning the air inside. A distraction from the far more pressing need to improve interior air quality due to a fair chunk of the population being laid up with respiratory viruses.
This whole thing stinks - not of fag smoke, but of the sort of divisive culture war nonsense that should have stopped on July 5th. Cummings would be proud.
Never really sure why pubs closing is seen as such a bad thing, they only produce pissed idiots anyway.
So so wrong…..
Why? Excess drinking causes all sorts of social and health problems, it's not like a local library closing or something. No idea why the local pub is put on a pedestal whereas a coffee shop isn't......
Pubs provide a social environment where local people connect and friendships are formed.
An established pub closing down is always tragic imo.
Pubs provide a social environment where local people connect and friendships are formed.
Yeah, that's what we hear all the time.
So why did you ask the question?
I am a teetotaler btw.
Edit: And I don't smoke either. The only way seeing other people smoking might bother me is that it reminds me how much I would enjoy having a fag.
On costs. It isn't just about NHS costs. The country saves on pension and benefits costs when smokers die young. Taxpayer costs are not an argument to ban smoking.
As for the pub garden ban. Nanny state nonsense. Let market forces sort it. If a landlord finds smokers are driving his customers away he will ban smoking. Don't see it often funnily enough
Why? Excess drinking causes all sorts of social and health problems, it’s not like a local library closing or something. No idea why the local pub is put on a pedestal whereas a coffee shop isn’t……
Some rural communities would disagree very strongly with that & would argue vociferously to mind your own business. I know of more than a few places where the pub provides a hub for people to come together. Where the local community has come together to stop/but a pub closing because of the gaping hole it would leave if it did shut. Stop looking at things through your own very narrow perspective.
Why? Excess drinking causes all sorts of social and health problems, it’s not like a local library closing or something. No idea why the local pub is put on a pedestal whereas a coffee shop isn’t……
You know most pub goers don't drink to excess?
A pub we used to frequent before we moved was the absolute heart of the community. Loads of different social groups met there in the day time for coffee mornings, there was a sewing morning where people could bring clothes to be repaired for free. A local teenage entrepreneur had his own mini baking business and would sell freshly baked bread in there. Likewise other small businesses. Live music, darts leagues etc. etc. It was always full of families, dogs, quirky characters and laughter. I really miss it as there is nothing quite like that where we live now.
I've been to a village pub in Exmoor where the pub had taken on the role of post office, village hall and fish and chip shop. The whole village relied on it. Others which were also the village store.
I'm a self confessed coffee snob but cafes just don't have the sense of community that a proper local pub has. I feel sorry for those that have never experienced that.
Maybe touch base with the real world from time to time
I'm sure we all appreciate this lesson from a well-remunerated crayon botherer.
The original smoking ban did have a catastrophic effect on pubs.
Catastrophic? Nah. A bigger impact was the fact that they think they can charge £7 a pint now vs people having the choice to walk into a supermarket and having the biggest choice of beer you can have for far less. Pubs can't just sell Fosters/Carling/Smiths by the pint and some peanuts anymore and expect to survive...
So why did you ask the question?
Because we hear it a lot doesn't make it true
Stop looking at things through your own very narrow perspective.
I am not I am looking at it through the perspective of government policy. Pubs seem to be held up as beacons of civil pride and are blessed with magical properties that hold society together....I think it's bollocks
I’ve been to a village pub in Exmoor where the pub had taken on the role of post office, village hall and fish and chip shop. The whole village relied on it.
So why wasn't the local shop supported in the same way?
I’m a self confessed coffee snob but cafes just don’t have the sense of community that a proper local pub has
Why do you think that is? I see loads of cafes that have old ladies spending an hour drinking a cup of tea and chatting. My old mum would never go to a pub to see her mostly female widowed friends but regularly visits cafes with her friends.
I’m sure we all appreciate this lesson from a well-remunerated crayon botherer.
Yeah.., Premier League Footballers are always complaining about not being able to get the latest Ferrari because the graphic designers have already bought them all
Where’s the eye roll emoji gone?
Pubs seem to be held up as beacons of civil pride and are blessed with magical properties that hold society together….I think it’s bollocks
Pubs, have been social hubs which have connected people for centuries. You might not appreciate the role that they have and do play but it doesn't mean that the claim is bollocks.
Too much caffeine can make you angry btw. You sound angry.
I don't go to the pub as often as I used to 'cause mainly I just can't afford to. Pint's what? north of 7-8 quid now? Something like that round my way. I certainly couldn't afford a pub and cigarette habit like I used to. I think pub's are dying off mainly as drink from the supermarket's cheaper.
My friend has a cafe which we stopped at on Saturday. It is absolutely part of the community, my friend was chatting away almost constantly to people she has obviously gotten to know very well over the years.
Pubs, have been social hubs which have connected people for centuries. You might not appreciate the role that they have and do play but it doesn’t mean that the claim is bollocks.
and yet pubs are closing left right and centre because people don't go to them... weird no wonder society is in meltdown
I suspect some of the sentiments about pubs on here come from the kind of people who think dancing is sinful and laughter on a Sunday is blasphemous.
I used to smoke like a chimney. Quit about twenty years ago and one of the best choices I've made in life. I am completely ambivalent about the beer garden bit as I spend very little time in pubs these days. An outright ban seems a bit extreme. It would be easier to just ban the sale of tobacco than police an outright ban. Nothing against people who smoke. I know how hard it is to quit the bloody things and I intend to buy a pipe when I'm old.
Bloke up the road - thats adapt and survive - like my local pubs. those that do do well
Culture's changing as well though. When I started working, it was perfectly normal to go down the pub at lunch time with your co-workers, in fact the weirdos were the ones that ate al-desco. Most Friday afternoons in my 20's was spent slightly buzzed, and I suspect that was probably true of most of business estates up and down the country, that's all complete changed now, the Gen-Z workers don't really believe us oldies when we tell them that.
I used to smoke like a chimney. Quite about twenty years ago and one of the best choices I’ve made in life. I am completely ambivalent about the beer garden bit as I spend very little time in pubs these days.
Same here, I actually find the ash trays worse than the actual smoke. I have to move the ash trays away as they really spoil my pint.
There was 9 pubs in the village I live in before the smoking ban was introduced, there are 2 left.
Seven out of nine of them also closed contemporaneously with a longer term decline in the number of pubs, the biggest financial crash since the 1930's, a decade and a half of public sector pay cuts, a global pandemic and an inflationary crisis sparked by a war in Europe.
But yea, it's smokers inability to go the the length of a pint without sparking up that's at fault.
So why wasn’t the local shop supported in the same way?
I'm sure it was supported but like the post office, even though it provided an essential community service it wasn't a viable business on it's own. Combining 2 or 3 of those functions allows them to cling on to an income by their finger nails.
I've noticed recently more and more community owned pubs. Where people value the socially cohesive nature of them sufficiently to part with a lot of wedge to keep them alive. Expecting a quality of life, rather than financial return.
I don’t go to the pub as often as I used to ’cause mainly I just can’t afford to. Pint’s what? north of 7-8 quid now?
Where are you drinking, fella? All the pubs round here now have old style ‘happy hour’ offers so if you go for a couple of beers after work (which we do quite regularly) it’s half that for a pint.