Apparently a movement on the rise according to the [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/09/slutwalking-phenomenon-comes-to-uk ]Guardian[/url]
I totally agree with the perspective that victims of rape shouldn't be seen as responsible for their attack, and that the perpetrator is 100% to blame.
However, I don't see a contradiction between that and suggesting that strategies that might help to avoid becoming a victim? If my wife leaves her handbag in plain view in the car, and someone comes along, breaks into the car and steals it, the thief is the criminal and she is the victim, but that's not going to alter the fact that she's been seriously inconvenienced, and allowed herself to be an easy target.
The article also has an interesting use of statistics [i]"A 2009 Home Office report into violence against women in the UK found that 36% of people believed a woman should be held wholly or partly responsible for being sexually assaulted or raped if she was drunk, and 26% if she was in public wearing sexy or revealing clothes." [/i] It could also be presented as around 3 out of 4 people [i]don't[/i] believe that a woman is responsible if she's dressed in revealing clothes i.e. the vast majority of the public agree that the perpetrator is to blame, not the victim.
Anyway, flame on...!
So, you think women who dress in a 'slutty' manner are 'asking for it'?
Are you the reincarnation of Justice James Pickles?
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That's a rather predictable opener Fred - it might help if you read what I said, rather than reflexively spouting dogma.
Can kinda see both sides to this.
You sum it up well in the OP; you wouldn't leave a car unattended with a handbag on full view. Sure, you have a 'right' to leave your belongings lying around, however you can also apply a little more common sense to minimise the risk of attracting criminals.
These, ah, ladies have a right to wear what they want of course (and if I were religious I'd thank the lord on a daily basis that they do), but common sense would perhaps suggest that hanging around rough areas on their own late at night whilst wearing nobbut a bikini probably isn't smart.
a female friend of mine who was well endowned by nature once went out in a see through top with no bra. She complained at one guy for looking at her tits I asked her what she thought the effect of her top would be..this made me both a sexist and a perv as she could dress how she liked.
That said I have no knowledge about whether dressing like a slut will make you more likely to be raped or not either way there are no mitigating factors. It is an evil and despicable crime and the rape prosecution rate are horrendous and this needs addressing far more than how women dress or act.
So, Ditch; you think women shouldn't dress in what you might consider a 'provocative' manner?
You've posted something deliberately provocative. I've reacted. Thing is, I've chosen to react. I have control over that action.
Same way that rapists have control over their dicks.
Some women at my local pool wear very skimpy bikinis. Should those women expect to be attacked?
I see your point and can see why some people would think a woman dressed provocatively was asking for it. But, we supposedly live in a civilised society, so cant agree with the point of view where people are blaming the victim. Just as I would not agree that a person leaving their purse or wallet in full view in their car was asking for it to be stolen.
The bigger issue here is why do people feel the need to carry out either crime?
Some women at my local pool leave their handbags in clear view in their cars in the car park. Should those women expect to be that their cars are broken into?
Do you leave your front door open when you go to work? Do you have that right?
The bigger issue here is why do people feel the need to carry out either crime?
[i]Now[/i] we're getting somewhere...
Do you leave your front door open when you go to work? Do you have that right?
I have that right, but I choose not to excercise it as I know the probable consequences of my actions will not be to my benefit.
But comparing theft/burglary to rape? Are you serious??
3 out of 4 people don't believe that a woman is responsible if she's dressed in revealing clothes
3 out of 4 people are retards then
EDIT - I Don't mean this, I mean the opposite!! My mistake.
Christ almighty I can't believe I just read what you posted there, iDave.
Are you serious too?? 😯
So, you believe a woman is responsible for her own rape if she's wearing 'revealing' clothing???
I have that right, but I choose not to excercise it as I know the probable consequences of my actions will not be to my benefit.But comparing theft/burglary to rape? Are you serious??
Well why don't you make the difference clear to me.
Personal responsibility. I know it's gone out of fashion. 🙄
Elfin - dont get sucked in mate. I can see you ending up cracking and calling folk nonces and getting banned. It's good to have you here as you keep the place sane.
Bollocks. Can't be arsed discussing this with morons.
A new low for STW.
Well... looks like there's only one solution then. If we blokes can't be expected to keep our urges at bay.
Who'd have thought that in the week of his death he'd be proved right. Oh the irony
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I am completely in agreement with the principles behind the Slutwalk.
But then again, if I come out of the Watershed on a Friday or Saturday night (Brizzleonians will know where I mean) after a movie at 1130 or so, why do I cringe at girls who look no more than twenty or so, wearing greyhound skirts, falling around (literally) pissed, rolling on the floor and not able to look after each other and hope they'll be ok. In the alcohol fuelled atmosphere of a town centre on a weekend, one does worry for their safety.
Elfin won't call people names, he knows that that gives them the excuse to flounce off without addressing the points he's raised
Bollocks. Can't be arsed discussing this with morons.
It wouldn't be such an effort if you had a coherent argument. But thanks for your unsupported assertions anyway
A nun and a slut in a bar, if I was up for some action I might think that the slut was a more likely target for my attentions but I am no more likely to rape either of them.
Elfin, I'm saying the opposite, as I had read responsible as irresponsible.
My mistake
I think a woman should be able to walk around naked if she wants and not be harassed.
You've posted something deliberately provocative. I've reacted. Thing is, I've chosen to react. I have control over that action.Same way that rapists have control over their dicks
Perfect 😀
I think a woman should be able to walk around naked if she wants and not be harassed.
Agreed, and i think i should be able to leave my bike outside a shop unlocked and not have it stolen. However, I'm also a realist and a Bayesian
iDave; no worries.
Mungus; have a think about it. Put yourself in the position of the victim. Now, imagine you've been burgled.
Then, imagine you've been raped.
Still think there's no distinction?
Did you misread my request?
Where is the distinction? Where are you drawing the line?
Nope.
One is a crime against a person's property.
The other is a violation of a person's body, mind and soul.
Material possessions can be replaced. A rape victim cannot be 'un-raped'.
The burglary and rape thing are probably a lot closer than people think, especially if the person was at home when they were burgled. Both are personal violation and having been burgled in the past it's not a particularly pleasant experience.
Can't really compare an impersonal crime like nicking an unattended bicycle with a very personal crime like rape
What about an attended bicycle?
i think people feel like you do about the door and accept that whilst the perpetrator of the crime is utterly responsible some actions you do [ lock or leave open the door] may encourage [ increase the likelyhood of it happening] the crime and therefore you are partly responsible.
Is this also the case with rape tbh I dont know any statistics that prove it one way or another but [some]people think it is a factor.
I am not saying this is my view i am simply articulating the view. Personally rape is rape , no means no, nothing mitigates it ever IMHO.
Material possessions can be replaced.
That would be relevant if that was all burglars took.
I think what many rapists seek more than anything else is an easy target. I think a women can certainly increase their vulnerability through things that they do, but I think alcohol is a more major contributor than dress sense.
Elfin, is there a distinction between sexual assault and rape?
What about an attended bicycle?
Well I'm guessing that whilst probably very upsetting and distressing, it's probably not quite as life changing as rape.
A question that I like to raise in threads like this is: How does a rape compare to a false rape allegation in terms of seriousness for the victim?
Ernie_lynch - that depends entirely on the circumstances surrounding the theft surely. Could have been a knife to the throat or anything...
NO SBZ please not now on this thread false rape [bad crime] is a far less occurence than a rapist being acquitted but it gets far more publicity...ever thought about why?
Could have been a knife to the throat or anything...
Sexual organ inserted in orafice against your will or a knife placed to your throat which would you choose?
Please dont troll on this thread it will run without you talents.
A question that I like to raise in threads like this is: How does a rape compare to a false rape allegation in terms of seriousness for the victim?
Why ?
It's in no way relevant. Rape is a very nasty crime. Coming up with a list of other nasty crimes such as murder, blackmail, etc, doesn't in anyway help. Why would it ?
NO SBZ please not now on this thread
+1
And those of you focusing on the material / invasive distinctions of bicycles versus rape are missing the issue of likelihood.
thieves are more likely to steal unsecured bicycles or burgle unsecured hand unalarmed houses. Rapists are more likely to rpe women who wear sexy clothes than they are women who wear frumpy clothes. It's not nice, and each is a violation. however, every individual has a choice to behave in ways which make them less likely to be a victim. This is often at a premium of their own independence and liberty. Nevertheless, that is the reality.
Rapists are more likely to rpe women who wear sexy clothes than they are women who wear frumpy clothes.
Really?
Rapists are more likely to rpe women who wear sexy clothes than they are women who wear frumpy clothes.
Is that a fact ? I thought rape was about power and control, and nothing to do with having sex with women who appear to want sex. What are the figures then ?
maybe
but i didn't day this
having sex with women who appear to want sex.
So you're not sure about your comment [i]"Nevertheless, that is the reality"[/i] then ?
"That would be relevant if that was all burglars took."
They took your soul?
When I was burgled, I was insured and came out of it quite well,being insured new for old. Not that much bother at all and quite a result really.
on reflection, by orders of magnitude....I'd much rather be burgled than raped.
OK you've edited now, so presumably you are sure about your claim.
But now you're saying that women who are dressed in a "sexy" manner aren't advertising the fact they want sex ?
So why might they expect to get raped then ?
I will not take the question of false rape away from this thread as it is incredibly relevant to this discussion. I wonder how many of these "slutwalkers" have consented, or at the very least not said no or indeed been in such a state that they couldnt say no, then woken up in the morning next to someone they wouldn't have touched when sober then decide to cry rape.
When someone has a crime perpetrated against him or her, I might sometimes think that perhaps the person could have dome something to reduce the likelihood of the crime happening in the first place but it doesn't make me feel any less sympathetic.
The idea of slutwalk is not to encourage women to dress provocatively, but to impact on some of society's perceptions that somehow the manner of the woman's clothing should somehow mitigate against her and in favour of the rapist. And women are right to fight against this "I put it to you your honour, that woman is sexy" attitude that pervades through the legal system.
I'm sorry if it spoils my impeccable Guardianista credentials but I agree with the OP. I don't see it as blaming the victim to suggest that wandering around a city centre at three am out of your mind wearing next to nothing probably isn't sensible, it's just a basic fact, and one that a lot of women seemingly need to hear more often.
I'm not sure what exactly is empowering about dressing like a prostitute anyway - it's only pandering to a horrible lads mag cliche of what men apparently find attractive. There are under 18s nights round here and the outfits many of the girls wear on their way there are horrendous.
There's no excuse for rape, ever, but that doesn't mean common sense can be completely abandoned either. Now where did I put that Daily Mail...
But now you're saying that women who are dressed in a "sexy" manner aren't advertising the fact they want sex ?
That's correct, do you disagree?
So why might they expect to get raped ?
Are you suggesting that if they were advertising that 'fact' that they then should expect to be raped?
Jesus H. Christ...
They took your soul?
Explain? Is someone's soul taken when they are raped?
When I was burgled, I was insured and came out of it quite well,being insured new for old. Not that much bother at all and quite a result really.
well, good for you I wish you more such luck in the future
Still good on the rhetoric Elf, but weak on the arguments
I'm not sure what exactly is empowering about dressing like a prostitute anyway - it's only pandering to a horrible lads mag cliche of what men apparently find attractive. There are under 18s nights round here and the outfits many of the girls wear on their way there are horrendous.Now where did I put that Daily Mail...
Are you sure it wasn't a copy of the Daily Jihadist ?
Are you sure it wasn't a copy of the Daily Jihadist ?
Yet again, no actual argument or discussion just snide comments. :yawn:
You dont see any problem at all with 12 year old girls going out dressed in incredibly slutty outfits?
CharlieMungus - MemberBut now you're saying that women who are dressed in a "sexy" manner aren't advertising the fact they want sex ?
That's correct, do you disagree?
So why might they expect to get raped ?
Are you suggesting that if they were advertising that 'fact' that they then should expect to be raped?
Well I know what I'm saying. But you don't seem to know what you're saying......you appear to have changed your position from one page to the next.
could you answer the questions?
I would appreciate it if you would point out where you think i have changed my position and I'll try to clarify for you.
Yet again, no actual argument or discussion just snide comments. :yawn:
Oh I see, you can make a joke along the lines of "Now where did I put that Daily Mail", but God forbid if anyone says one back.
Well at least I understand the rules now....even if they stand logic on its head.
It's really the [i]"why make yourself vulnerable"[/i] question that intrigues me. I gave a bit of time over a couple of years volunteering for a charity that ran a 'safe space' for people in Glasgow city centre at the weekends. A lot of it was good craic, chatting with folk who were a bit bevies and needed help getting taxis and so on, had minor injuries or just needed a bit of TLC. On a couple of occasions we found ourselves intervening to assist women who were drunk and/or drugged and who were clearly being lined up as victims by their male 'companion' - one of the males was a particularly malevolent tosser, who displayed a horrific attitude towards the women on the team as well as his potential victim. After we had gotteher safely away from him, i actually found myself feeling physically sick at the thought of what she might have been subjected to if we hadn't been around. The notion that she somehow merited what he was likely planning for her is totally abhorrent, irrespective of how she was dressed or how much alcohol she'd consumed.
I'm not sure what exactly is empowering about dressing like a prostitute anyway
It's not about "empowering" women to dress like prostitutes. It's about breaking the cycle of thought that leads to society somehow feeling that a rapist deserves less punishment for raping a scantily clad "slut" than for a primly dressed spinster.
"Explain? Is someone's soul taken when they are raped?"
I was just talking about burglary there.........not rape.
And as for the prospect of being burgled again. I don't skimp on insurance so expect the same will happen next time if it does again.
could you answer the questions?
Nah, I'm outta here like Elfin.......I can't be arsed with this bollox.
yup, thought so.
All hot air
Funny how some folks seem to think that their opinions are unimpeachable.
It's really the "why make yourself vulnerable" question that intrigues me.
And again...now, I'm not arguing but I'll hang around for a bit...though I feel I might be following ernie and elfin out of the room...nobody's telling women to make themselves vulnerable. But the fact that she's made herself vulnerable or appear "more up for it" should never count in favour of anyone who chooses to use that vulnerability to assault her.
The notion that she somehow merited what he was likely planning for her is totally abhorrent, irrespective of how she was dressed or how much alcohol she'd consumed.
no one is suggesting that what they are suggesting is that dressing like that and having consumed that amount of alcohol may have affected her chances of the incident.
Whether we think this is right or wrong is not an issue it is whether it is true or false.
CM you could have presented a less confrontational attitude on a subject as sensitive as this. You have articulated your viewpoint as well as Whoppit on a religous thread.
EDIT: and what DD said
The notion that she somehow merited what he was likely planning for her is totally abhorrent, irrespective of how she was dressed or how much alcohol she'd consumed.
And yet, if she hadnt got so pissed, she'd have known to keep away from the scumbag. Oh there I go [s]blaming the victim[/s] suggesting people use common sense a bit more.
Just to put another spin on this, I know a man who was raped. No slutty outfit involved, but he did put himself in a very risky situation. He certainly didn't 'deserve' it though. I think it's stupid to suggest that the two views are incompatible.
Ernie - sorry perhaps I didn't take your comment as it was intended.
the fact that she's made herself vulnerable or appear "more up for it" should never count in favour of anyone who chooses to use that vulnerability to assault her.
If it appears that I'm disagreeing with you on this point, then my apologies because I'm not.
And if people don't use common sense, whether they deserve it or not, should that mitigate in favour of the perpetrator?
If it appears that I'm disagreeing with you on this point, then my apologies because I'm not.
Ah right, fair enough then.
Explain? Is someone's soul taken when they are raped?
The two women I know who've been raped both subsequently attempted suicide. Regardless of your view on souls, I think it's fair to say that a serious amount of psychological damage generally follows the attack. Not something I'm aware of happening to the people I know who've been burgled. Perhaps this is atypical though?
Confrontational? Really? I thought i was giving Elfie and Ernie the opportunity to clarify their positions. Despite, their provocative stances.
It's not about "empowering" women to dress like prostitutes. It's about breaking the cycle of thought that leads to society somehow feeling that a rapist deserves less punishment for raping a scantily clad "slut" than for a primly dressed spinster.
I never said there should be less punishment, and I find it sickening that this line is used as a standard defence in rape cases. But does that mean we have to abandon common sense too?
But does that mean we have to abandon common sense too?
No, not at all, I think to be fair grum, we're in agreement broadly on this. And I'm not looking for a scrap (unless Junkyard is spoiling for one in which case, bring it on 😉 ). I'm just trying to get the point across that Slutwalk isn't about telling women or young girls to go out dressed like prostitutes, but it is a slightly OTT poke in the eye to the parts of society that wonder if "she was asking for it" when a rape case comes to court.
The common sense argument and the over-sexualisation of young girls is a different discussion (IMO).
I'd suggest that if you're of a raping demeanour then appearance is of lower importance than availability. If I dress sluttily in Tesco at 2pm then I might get 'tutted' at, if I wear a burka in a secluded park at 2am I'm putting myself at risk.
Cardiff slutwalk was organised by Beccy Pert...
If I dress sluttily in Tesco at 2pm then I might get 'tutted' at, if I wear a burka in a secluded park at 2am I'm putting myself at risk
But let's be fair and make the full set of comparisons
which is riskiest? put them in order
I dress sluttily in Tesco at 2pm
I wear a burka in a secluded park at 2am
I dress sluttily in a secluded park at 2am
I wear a burka in Tesco at 2pm
Or lets just prolong the argument. 🙄
fair enough, let's just allow anyone to say whatever they like without questioning their ideas
yes, maybe thats the case if my twin sister wears the burka and I'm drinking Thunderbird in my bikini, but assuming that we're not both mentals, whoever is in the park, late and alone, too pissed to run and abandoned by friends is gonna be a potential victim. Less booze, trainers and a couple of friends would make a big difference, this is just common sense.
Sorry, I'm just trying to find a polite way to discourage you from talking any more bollocks. It seems you're intent on trying to get a rise by asking inane questions. Anyway, don't let me stop you. I'm off to sleep. I'll check back tomorrow though to see what other clever stuff you've written. Nighty night.
Yes, you're right.
Cheers.