[Closed] Slutwalking?

I will not take the question of false rape away from this thread as it is incredibly relevant to this discussion. I wonder how many of these "slutwalkers" have consented, or at the very least not said no or indeed been in such a state that they couldnt say no, then woken up in the morning next to someone they wouldn't have touched when sober then decide to cry rape.

When someone has a crime perpetrated against him or her, I might sometimes think that perhaps the person could have dome something to reduce the likelihood of the crime happening in the first place but it doesn't make me feel any less sympathetic.

The idea of slutwalk is not to encourage women to dress provocatively, but to impact on some of society's perceptions that somehow the manner of the woman's clothing should somehow mitigate against her and in favour of the rapist. And women are right to fight against this "I put it to you your honour, that woman is sexy" attitude that pervades through the legal system.

I'm sorry if it spoils my impeccable Guardianista credentials but I agree with the OP. I don't see it as blaming the victim to suggest that wandering around a city centre at three am out of your mind wearing next to nothing probably isn't sensible, it's just a basic fact, and one that a lot of women seemingly need to hear more often.

I'm not sure what exactly is empowering about dressing like a prostitute anyway - it's only pandering to a horrible lads mag cliche of what men apparently find attractive. There are under 18s nights round here and the outfits many of the girls wear on their way there are horrendous.

There's no excuse for rape, ever, but that doesn't mean common sense can be completely abandoned either. Now where did I put that Daily Mail...

But now you're saying that women who are dressed in a "sexy" manner aren't advertising the fact they want sex ?

So why might they expect to get raped ?

Jesus H. Christ...

They took your soul?

Explain? Is someone's soul taken when they are raped?

When I was burgled, I was insured and came out of it quite well,being insured new for old. Not that much bother at all and quite a result really.

Still good on the rhetoric Elf, but weak on the arguments

I'm not sure what exactly is empowering about dressing like a prostitute anyway - it's only pandering to a horrible lads mag cliche of what men apparently find attractive. There are under 18s nights round here and the outfits many of the girls wear on their way there are horrendous.

Now where did I put that Daily Mail...

Are you sure it wasn't a copy of the Daily Jihadist ?

Are you sure it wasn't a copy of the Daily Jihadist ?

Yet again, no actual argument or discussion just snide comments. :yawn:

You dont see any problem at all with 12 year old girls going out dressed in incredibly slutty outfits?

CharlieMungus - Member

But now you're saying that women who are dressed in a "sexy" manner aren't advertising the fact they want sex ?

That's correct, do you disagree?

So why might they expect to get raped ?

Are you suggesting that if they were advertising that 'fact' that they then should expect to be raped?

Well I know what I'm saying. But you don't seem to know what you're saying......you appear to have changed your position from one page to the next.

could you answer the questions?

I would appreciate it if you would point out where you think i have changed my position and I'll try to clarify for you.

Yet again, no actual argument or discussion just snide comments. :yawn:

Oh I see, you can make a joke along the lines of "Now where did I put that Daily Mail", but God forbid if anyone says one back.

Well at least I understand the rules now....even if they stand logic on its head.

It's really the [i]"why make yourself vulnerable"[/i] question that intrigues me. I gave a bit of time over a couple of years volunteering for a charity that ran a 'safe space' for people in Glasgow city centre at the weekends. A lot of it was good craic, chatting with folk who were a bit bevies and needed help getting taxis and so on, had minor injuries or just needed a bit of TLC. On a couple of occasions we found ourselves intervening to assist women who were drunk and/or drugged and who were clearly being lined up as victims by their male 'companion' - one of the males was a particularly malevolent tosser, who displayed a horrific attitude towards the women on the team as well as his potential victim. After we had gotteher safely away from him, i actually found myself feeling physically sick at the thought of what she might have been subjected to if we hadn't been around. The notion that she somehow merited what he was likely planning for her is totally abhorrent, irrespective of how she was dressed or how much alcohol she'd consumed.

I'm not sure what exactly is empowering about dressing like a prostitute anyway

It's not about "empowering" women to dress like prostitutes. It's about breaking the cycle of thought that leads to society somehow feeling that a rapist deserves less punishment for raping a scantily clad "slut" than for a primly dressed spinster.

"Explain? Is someone's soul taken when they are raped?"

I was just talking about burglary there.........not rape.

And as for the prospect of being burgled again. I don't skimp on insurance so expect the same will happen next time if it does again.

could you answer the questions?

Nah, I'm outta here like Elfin.......I can't be arsed with this bollox.

yup, thought so.

All hot air

Funny how some folks seem to think that their opinions are unimpeachable.

It's really the "why make yourself vulnerable" question that intrigues me.

And again...now, I'm not arguing but I'll hang around for a bit...though I feel I might be following ernie and elfin out of the room...nobody's telling women to make themselves vulnerable. But the fact that she's made herself vulnerable or appear "more up for it" should never count in favour of anyone who chooses to use that vulnerability to assault her.

The notion that she somehow merited what he was likely planning for her is totally abhorrent, irrespective of how she was dressed or how much alcohol she'd consumed.

The notion that she somehow merited what he was likely planning for her is totally abhorrent, irrespective of how she was dressed or how much alcohol she'd consumed.

And yet, if she hadnt got so pissed, she'd have known to keep away from the scumbag. Oh there I go [s]blaming the victim[/s] suggesting people use common sense a bit more.

Just to put another spin on this, I know a man who was raped. No slutty outfit involved, but he did put himself in a very risky situation. He certainly didn't 'deserve' it though. I think it's stupid to suggest that the two views are incompatible.

Ernie - sorry perhaps I didn't take your comment as it was intended.

the fact that she's made herself vulnerable or appear "more up for it" should never count in favour of anyone who chooses to use that vulnerability to assault her.

If it appears that I'm disagreeing with you on this point, then my apologies because I'm not.

And if people don't use common sense, whether they deserve it or not, should that mitigate in favour of the perpetrator?

If it appears that I'm disagreeing with you on this point, then my apologies because I'm not.

Ah right, fair enough then.

Explain? Is someone's soul taken when they are raped?

The two women I know who've been raped both subsequently attempted suicide. Regardless of your view on souls, I think it's fair to say that a serious amount of psychological damage generally follows the attack. Not something I'm aware of happening to the people I know who've been burgled. Perhaps this is atypical though?

Confrontational? Really? I thought i was giving Elfie and Ernie the opportunity to clarify their positions. Despite, their provocative stances.

It's not about "empowering" women to dress like prostitutes. It's about breaking the cycle of thought that leads to society somehow feeling that a rapist deserves less punishment for raping a scantily clad "slut" than for a primly dressed spinster.

I never said there should be less punishment, and I find it sickening that this line is used as a standard defence in rape cases. But does that mean we have to abandon common sense too?

But does that mean we have to abandon common sense too?

No, not at all, I think to be fair grum, we're in agreement broadly on this. And I'm not looking for a scrap (unless Junkyard is spoiling for one in which case, bring it on 😉 ). I'm just trying to get the point across that Slutwalk isn't about telling women or young girls to go out dressed like prostitutes, but it is a slightly OTT poke in the eye to the parts of society that wonder if "she was asking for it" when a rape case comes to court.

The common sense argument and the over-sexualisation of young girls is a different discussion (IMO).

I'd suggest that if you're of a raping demeanour then appearance is of lower importance than availability. If I dress sluttily in Tesco at 2pm then I might get 'tutted' at, if I wear a burka in a secluded park at 2am I'm putting myself at risk.

Cardiff slutwalk was organised by Beccy Pert...

If I dress sluttily in Tesco at 2pm then I might get 'tutted' at, if I wear a burka in a secluded park at 2am I'm putting myself at risk

But let's be fair and make the full set of comparisons

which is riskiest? put them in order

I dress sluttily in Tesco at 2pm
I wear a burka in a secluded park at 2am
I dress sluttily in a secluded park at 2am
I wear a burka in Tesco at 2pm

Or lets just prolong the argument. 🙄

fair enough, let's just allow anyone to say whatever they like without questioning their ideas

yes, maybe thats the case if my twin sister wears the burka and I'm drinking Thunderbird in my bikini, but assuming that we're not both mentals, whoever is in the park, late and alone, too pissed to run and abandoned by friends is gonna be a potential victim. Less booze, trainers and a couple of friends would make a big difference, this is just common sense.

Sorry, I'm just trying to find a polite way to discourage you from talking any more bollocks. It seems you're intent on trying to get a rise by asking inane questions. Anyway, don't let me stop you. I'm off to sleep. I'll check back tomorrow though to see what other clever stuff you've written. Nighty night.

Yes, you're right.

Cheers.

First off no girl deserves to be raped. Easy one.

I think slutwalk is aimed more at the kinds of people who think how a girl dresses has a bearing on what happens to her rather than at the sorts of scumbags who would actually rape a woman. Personally I don't think it makes a difference. I could be attacked just as easily on my bike as I could walking home from a bar. The sorts of men who do this sort of thing have such a ****ed up view of women anyway.

First off no girl deserves to be raped. Easy one.

I think slutwalk is aimed more at the kinds of people who think how a girl dresses has a bearing on what happens to her rather than at the sorts of scumbags who would actually rape a woman. Personally I don't think it makes a difference. I could be attacked just as easily on my bike as I could walking home from a bar. The sorts of men who do this sort of thing have such a **** up view of women anyway

^ This

I think it's horrendous that we still have a culture of blaming the victim when it comes to rape - had they been drinking, were they in a dodgy area, how were they dressed? A lot of people seem to ask these questions, then rank victims according to how 'deserving' they were of their attack. People say 'use common sense', but where do you draw the line?

Should Muslims and Jews not wear clothing associated with their faith, because bigots might attack them? Should football fans not wear their team's shirt because they might get attacked by opposing fans? If a cyclist is hit in broad daylight by a dangerous driver, did they deserve it because they weren't wearing a helmet or high-vis vest? What sort of top crosses the line from wanting to stay cool in summer to saying 'I'm up for teh sexings?'

A person's clothing should never justify an attack against them, whether it's physical or verbal. I do understand why people say, "But it's not an ideal world, people should exercise caution", but my worry is that as long as there's that attitude, there's going to be an element of blaming the victim.

I know two women who were raped as children, and one who was nearly raped at a party but thankfully someone walked in and stopped it. None of them reported their attackers, because they felt they wouldn't be believed, or would be blamed themselves. They're all pretty messed up now when it comes to relationships.

Interesting topic going on here.
From what I gather the blame rests solely on the person being raped yeah? Is that correct? For me it makes not one jot of sense that. What difference does it make how/what the woman (or man) wears, it’s purely down to the person/potential attacker to have the morals NOT to attack that person. The attackers own decision to pursue and force themselves on the woman (or man) is singularly down to their own decision to do such. Using the defence of “she/he was gagging for it, look at the way they dress” is abhorrent. This society should have the moral backbone to accept the freedom of expression (in whatever form that maybe) without fear of recrimination and without ramification.
Slutwalking, whom ever thought that terminology up needs a better understanding of the society they occupy.

A person's clothing should never justify an attack against them

Of course it shouldn't, don't think anyone is saying rape is justified in any circumstances, in fact it's absurd even suggesting that anyone is.

That isn't the same as suggesting that a person's clothing may be relevant in whether someone picks them out to be a victim.

So in the meantime, Bikebouy, while we build this society where everybody respects each other and freedom of expression does not offend or incite anyone to do anything, do you have any practical advice as to how to conduct oneself in a way that avoids confrontation?

People say 'use common sense', but where do you draw the line?

At dressing in such a way as you could easily be confused for a prostitute, getting so drunk you can barely stand up, then wandering around alone in a city centre at 3am?

Look, I wouldn't consider it very sensible for [i]me[/i] to wander around totally wasted on my own in a city centre at 3am, and I'm a fairly big bloke with a shaved head. If you happen to walk around a city centre (mine anyway) on a saturday night when you're sober, you will see that they are fairly scary places filled with drunken idiots. Staying away from horrible drunken idiots generally lessens your chances of something bad happening.

:shrug:

I don't see why you can't say that, [i]and[/i] say there are no excuses or mitigating factors for rape, ever. It seems a bit of a Dubya style 'you're either with us or you're against us' fallacy.

This Slutwalking thing just seems part of what is to me a bullshit distortion of feminism. It seems to be 'ok you can't have equal pay for doing the same job, but look you can empower yourself by living up to cliched male sexual fantasies (which you are bombarded with in media largely run by men). You go girl!'

So ... I'm assuming that very few of you have experienced the joys of having a teenage daughter?

No, thank god.

Here is some BBC advice about how to prevent being a victim of mugging:

Most muggings happen in the street or on public transport
Most happen between 6pm and midnight.
So don't walk the streets or use public transport alone at night. Obviously.
Even if you're in a group, stick to well-lit areas.
The most common items to be nicked are wallets, mobile phones and jewellery, so keep them hidden.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/advice/factfile_az/mugging_theft

Now before anyone starts, I'm not saying mugging is 'the same' as being raped. But surely this advice is shifting the blame onto the victim of the mugging - surely we shouldn't have to change our behaviour at all because of these awful people? Or is it just about exercising a bit of common sense?

Should football fans not wear their team's shirt because they might get attacked by opposing fans?

To use your example, depends on the situation - normally probably fine - but maybe after an acrimonious defeat, going into a rival team's pub might not be the most sensible plan.

f a cyclist is hit in broad daylight by a dangerous driver, did they deserve it because they weren't wearing a helmet or high-vis vest?

Not at all, but wearing a helmet and a high vis vest is probably a good idea.

Yes, I have had a teenage daughter.
I've also been a pretty teenage boy myself and been in some unpleasant situations (I used to hitchhike alone throughout Europe; it was common in the late 60s / 70s) - so I know that crime is down to the perpetrator, not the victim.

Started reading this thread. It's great eh, bandying about opinions like it's a competition who can be the most right. Me me me! I'm the rightest!

edit: looks like brought back on track after some flouncing!