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Whatever you are taking I suggest lowering the dose, a lot. But do it gradually though otherwise it could get even worse.
Nice. Insinuating mental illness/substance abuse now, simply because you don't agree with what I say. Incapable of actually engaging intelligently, so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Classy.
I pity you.
Creates a sort of ‘Guardianised’ version for the metropolitan middle class elite.
Well he works primarily for the guardian so I suppose that's no great surprise. Really though I've never really detected any 'metropolitan miiddle class elite' stuff from Jones. He may by definition be a member of that group, but his background, and more importantly his activism and writing suggest he's done more than many 'working class' people on the left to further the interests of working people. By all means have a go at middle class tories who can't see past their range rover and second home in the Dordogne, but Owen Jones really isn't someone the left should be having a go at. In fact I do wonder whether the problem people have with him is less to do with class more to do with something else.
Owen Jones is good at what he does.
He's a force for good. He's been guilty of flip-flopping his support within a couple of days on issues but he admits he changes his mind! He gets a ridiculous amount of vile abuse - the 'left' need to remember this when giving him such a hard time.
Lots of people hate him and he does get a lot of stick which to me is painfully undeserved - he gives a shit about the welfare of people. That's all I need.
He has decent guests on his show too.
I like the Novara crew - their journalism is actually good and well researched. They are left but are critical of the left too where the evidence goes.
They are behind the curve economically though, Bastani came close when he realised how much the Government spending was not connected to borrowing during 2020.
They did very well through the pandemic calling out the likes of Julia Hartley-Brewer's 'evidence'.
They deserve a bigger platform, and put out great little features such as the one about the Amazon bricks and mortar store.
(Yeah Galloway - he has some interesting credentials - when he did the Iraq war take-apart to the American sentate, he was very impressive. But he never recovered from the Big Brother era to me.)
Nice. Insinuating mental illness/substance abuse now, simply because you don’t agree with what I say.
Nothing to do with agreeing with what you say, just more about the nutty ranting and clearly said in jest but never mind.
The big weakness of OJ is his taking up the AS attacks on JC to keep his job at the Guardian. With the consistency of a jellyfish he helps this apartheid-supporting organ seem liberal and progressive. Bit of a challenge these days for the MSM to write about Starmer's strengths and successes but they do try.
OJ comes nowhere near to past serious Guardian journalists like Nick Davies and Paul Foot.
The big weakness of OJ is his taking up the AS attacks on JC to keep his job at the Guardian.
I can't remember that. I remember him acknowledging the problem of AS for labour and how they need to get ahead of it, but it's quite a stretch, and not a little paranoid to suggest he piled on with the AS stuff to keep his employers happy. To repeat again, the left could do themselves a massive favour by abandoning this outdated class warfare bollox. Yes, many of the underlying problems we have today are still class-based (and many aren't), but no one is interested in the 20th century class war, and from what I've seen, OJ does a very good job at framing traditional class issues in a modern context. The 'old left' could learn a lot from him.
Where's binners with his pictures when you need him? 😄
OJ does a very good job at framing traditional class issues in a modern context. The ‘old left’ could learn a lot from him
He flipflops faster than Burnham
He may have some half decent insights but there is a lot more chaff than wheat in his output
By all means have a go at middle class tories who can’t see past their range rover and second home in the Dordogne, but Owen Jones really isn’t someone the left should be having a go at
Not 'having a go' at OJ, just that what he is good at, is creating products for the consumption of Guardian readers. And in fact, many Guardian readers do fit the 'range rover and second home in the Dordogne' profile; certainly, several of its senior editors do! And yes, it is also (allegedly) read in the Rose and Crown, Ramsbottom. Albeit by just one person.
OJ tends to bend with the prevailing wind; he jumped on the pro Corbyn bandwagon once he realised there was capital to be made for his own brand image. But in my opinion, he rarely says anything original, he's more of a clever plagiarist. But if we are to engage with the issues he's raised in that article above, then I find it a lot more helpful to read something like this article by Paul Mason, which examines a lot more deeply, the nuances of the situation in places like Batley and Spen:
The consensus here, is that Labour isn't listening to it's voters. And losing them. And this is pretty much all down to the elitist right of the party, who are all far more about personal wealth and power, than they are about representing the needs of their party's members and voters. We saw with the London mayoral elections of 2000, that the Blairite choice of Frank Dobson was hugely unpopular, and resulted in a humiliating defeat for Blair, in spite of his best efforts to rig the elections in his favour. Labour realised then that they had to cede to democracy, and that was probably the moment Blair realised he needed a decent exit strategy. But subsequent Labour figures haven't learned from that massive failure, and here we are, with supposedly intelligent people wondering why 'thick' people won't vote for them...
But in my opinion, he rarely says anything original, he’s more of a clever plagiarist.
Honestly a lot of these points are pretty silly. He's a journalist, it's his actual job to provide content for Guardian readers, and he does an extremely good job at communicating what can be pretty boring, academic discussions and issues into language normal people, especially the young, can understand. You call it plagiarism, I call it story telling.
Anyway, enough about OJ, back on topic. I see Starmer's big idea is to pinch one of Hilary Clinton's ideas, because that was so stunningly successful in making her president 🙄
Yup, he gathers anecdotes and repeats points made elsewhere, for sure... but that is because he is a column writer, and opinion piece provider. Perhaps not calling him a journalist would help. He gets SO much stick from so many directions. Some if it is very nasty, and completely undeserved. But some if it is because when he flips direction (as we should all be willing to do as things change around us) he has a tendency to be very dismissive of people holding a view that he himself held very recently, or goes on to hold tomorrow. That riles a lot of people, of all political persuasions, that like people to either be more consistent or more understanding of fellow political travellers taking a different position.
"Stronger Together" .... did that come from Scottish Labour?
The tories latest right to work at home/right to flexible working mumblings seem more progressive than anything Starmer has to say too.
He’s a journalist, it’s his actual job to provide content for Guardian readers
And that's the issue. He can't speak to other groups, because he lacks the experience of living and moving outside of his safe little middle class 'bubble'. OJ will be found in trendy restaurants in Islington and Highgate*, not working mens clubs in Barnsley or Bolton. Someone like Mason will have moved around a lot more, and had interactions with a far more diverse range of people. We need to hear from a wider range of voices, not just those the Guardian editors deem acceptable and safe.
*I've actually seen him in a cafe even I wouldn't eat in. Far too posh for me! I walked past and went to the much cheaper (and better) place down the road. 😉
“Stronger Together” …. did that come from Scottish Labour?
Hilary Clinton - that well know vote winner and not at all divisive politician
He can’t speak to other groups, because he lacks the experience of living and moving outside of his safe little middle class ‘bubble’.
This simply isn't true. He makes more effort to speak to, and mix with, people in the "real world" than most other column writers, from any paper. I often disagree with him, strongly, but he doesn't deserve that kind of character assassination.
Must say my day's happiness has gone through the roof to hear that we've moved on from C20th class relations of production. Blimey, a revolution and I didn't even notice. What is the system called now?
And this is pretty much all down to the elitist right of the party
Let's not forget that it was elitist left of the party (the likes of millionaires like Seamus Milne, and Union Bosses) who managed to persuade Northern voters to turn in huge numbers to the Tories in the last election.
he’s more of a clever plagiarist.
Oh? do lets have some examples of the times he's actually stolen verbatim copy from other people and passed it off as his own work. I'd be surprised if a prominent journo could get away with it TBH.
Edit: Removed the landed Gentry bit, that's not him.
What is the system called now?
We're All ****ed - Buy More Shit
Oh? do lets have some examples of the times he’s actually stolen verbatim copy from other people and passed it off as his own work. I’d be surprised if a prominent journo could get away with it TBH.
It's more the way he'll do an article for the Guardian, which will involve issues already discussed/reported by others. So perhaps not direct plagiarism, but definitely letting others do the hard work.
This simply isn’t true. He makes more effort to speak to, and mix with, people in the “real world” than most other column writers, from any paper.
Lol! I know people who know him, and he's really not one for venturing far from comfort. But you're missing the point; which is that there are far more voices out there than just OJ's. But OJ is very skilled at using his privilege to be heard, over others. Which illustrates the point about middle class elitism; if you continue assuming you know better than others, because of your class, wealth and privilege, then you will run into trouble. OJ is fine; he makes the right noises, I've nothing against him and he does seem to genuinely care.I've already said that. So don't be so touchy.
Let’s not forget that it was elitist left of the party (the likes of millionaires like Seamus Milne, and Union Bosses) who managed to persuade Northern voters to turn in huge numbers to the Tories in the last election.
Very good. Do you also write for GB News? 😀
Lol! I know people who know him, and he’s really not one for venturing far from comfort
Maybe something to do with being assaulted for his political views/sexuality eh?
who managed to persuade Northern voters to turn in huge numbers to the Tories in the last election.
Thank god we now have a sensible centrist in charge and they've all come flooding back to Labour in their droves.
So perhaps not direct plagiarism.
So, not a plagiarist then? I mean I've read one of his books and it was pretty loosey-goosy with stats, so you could've picked him up on that, but just to claim that he steals work to make your point is lame.
So don’t be so touchy.
Oh teh ironing (as the young kids probably don't say) says the man with the lightest of hair triggers.
Here's OJ talking absolute perfect sense (just for balance, like. because it seems some people are a bit upset about OJ being criticised):
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/owen-jones-far-right-extremism-assault/
The attack on OJ was beyond vile. But he's spot on that extremist 'hate preachers' need to be tackled and brought to account.
Maybe something to do with being assaulted for his political views/sexuality eh?
Yes, that is a valid point and may certainly have an affect on how OJ moves around and the places he chooses to visit. I accept that. But I meant more how he suffers that typical middle class trait of not being able to fully empathise with others, because their own experience is quite 'contained'. For example, I wouldn't expect OJ to be able to interact with and relate to people outside of his own social group as well as someone like Paul Mason, who has moved in much more diverse circles during his life and career.
Oh teh ironing (as the young kids probably don’t say) says the man with the lightest of hair triggers.
No please; don't stop there, why not make insinuations about my mental health? Seems that is a legitimate area for comedy, after all. Again with the ad hominems; proves you've lost the argument. An argument on the internet. Go you! 😀
We’re All **** – Buy More Shit
Indeed. One thing I can never get my head around with much of the 'old left' stuff is the obession with materialism, either in the form of enabling poorer people to buy more stuff, or stopping rich people from buying too much. It's the 20th century in a nutshell, but today's problems such as climate change, environmental destruction, resource depletion and the erosion of democracy are much more fundamental. The question for labour and the left shouldn't be how do we increase incomes so people can consume more, but how do we enable people to work less and enjoy life more whilst living securely and sustainably.
securely and sustainably
Nail on head.
Again with the ad hominems
I'd point you to the fact that I was quoting you, but that would seem churlish. Go You, indeed.
proves you’ve lost the argument.
We're not arguing, I'm pointing out that you're making shit up. It's literally the opposite of an argument. Christ, you're not very good at this, are you?
A materialist analysis focuses on the relations of production, the expropriation of surplus value and the consequent accumulation of capital, not on people's shopping bags. Having said that, I'm always up for a bit of champagne socialism.
We’re not arguing
Ha ha! 😀 Very, very good. You really are much funnier than that other bloke.
Christ, you’re not very good at this, are you?
Oh I'm brilliant. You're the one with your knickers in a twist, all wound up and hurling thinly veiled insults around. Without actually understanding things. Such as irony. 😉
not on people’s shopping bags
Where do you think the money goes? This is my problem, because marxist economic theory (and please save the mansplainy lessons, I know what it is) is not much different to capitalism in that it's still assumes people will work, mostly in shit, unfulfilling, boring jobs that they'd rather not be doing, in the interests of some 'greater good'. For capitalists that greater good is the power and wealth of a small elite, for socialists it's the state and the things it can provide. Both these viewpoints are redundant in a world where the work we do, and the things we consume as a result threaten our very existence. You're banging on about class warfare and materialism when the rock on which we all live is dying. It's bloody stupid.
The question for labour and the left shouldn’t be how do we increase incomes so people can consume more, but how do we enable people to work less and enjoy life more whilst living securely and sustainably.
Tough message to sell to many many folk who're still working multiple fragile jobs to make ends meet. Those folk do want more money to spend on more crap, they need more money just to live.
This is my problem, because marxist economic theory (and please save the mansplainy lessons, I know what it is) is not much different to capitalism in that it’s still assumes people will work, mostly in shit, unfulfilling, boring jobs that they’d rather not be doing, in the interests of some ‘greater good’. For capitalists that greater good is the power and wealth of a small elite, for socialists it’s the state and the things it can provide. Both these viewpoints are redundant in a world where the work we do, and the things we consume as a result threaten our very existence. You’re banging on about class warfare and materialism when the rock on which we all live is dying. It’s bloody stupid.
Hmm. An interesting analysis. The difference being, however, that Socialism does at least call for a better society for ALL, rather than just for an elite few. Fact is that there are many boring, unfulfilling jobs. The vast majority of them, probably. Someone has to do them. The main problem with the current capitalist system, is that it helps perpetuate that horrible class system you keep wanting to not talk about, as it reinforces the notion of people divided in terms of socioeconomic classes. I suppose a 'better' system would be where we all share the nasty jobs more equally; maybe some bankers and Guardian editors and journos could roll their sleeves up and work digging the roads, or emptying the bins, or perhaps just helping clean their own ****ing offices. Just an idea...
Without actually understanding things.
As you seem to be having trouble, let me help:
plagiarism
[ˈplājəˌrizəm]
NOUN
the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.
"there were accusations of plagiarism" ·
I thought everyone had a job as an Instagram influencer nowadays?
I'm currently working on my profile, Binners. Trying to get loads of shots of myself in places like Gail's (it's like Greggs, only posh and with actual food), Divertimenti and Yotam Ottolenghi's little place on Upper St. It's a hard life, but I do it for the millions out there who need inspiration and positive reinforcement.
As you seem to be having trouble
No I'm not having trouble. But thanks anyway. That's very kind of you.
No I’m not having trouble. But thanks anyway.
Yes, I can see how an unsubstantiated accusation of plagiarism is clear evidence of that. But you do have form for making stuff up, so perhaps you can't help it.
Lol! Well done. Very good. Thanks for calling.:D
Stay on the line, and our producer will get your details to get you that book token.
Hey, no worries! How's the next fiction coming along?
it’s like Greggs, only posh and with actual food),
You do know that Gregg's sell salads? You don't have to buy baked goods.
Or is it just snobbery?
You do know that Gregg’s sell salads? You don’t have to buy baked goods.
I've only ever been in two Greggs; one in Newcastle, and one somewhere else.
I Saw No Salads.
why not make insinuations about my mental health? Seems that is a legitimate area for comedy, after all
To be clear, I made no mention of your mental health and wouldn't be qualified to make a comment but sure you are fine if a touch over dramatic about everything that anyone says.
Apologies for making a joke that you were on something as it was clearly not taken as such.
I’ve only ever been in two Greggs; one in Newcastle, and one somewhere else.
You don't know what you're missing...
Salads are massively overrated IMHO
I’ve only ever been in two Greggs; one in Newcastle, and one somewhere else.
I Saw No Salads.
When did you go, 10 years ago? Or had they just sold them all? Or did you have something over your head so people couldn't see you slumming it?
If nothing else Gregg's should get an award for completely disrupting the motorway service station food racket.
Fact is that there are many boring, unfulfilling jobs. The vast majority of them, probably. Someone has to do them.
And that's why this century will be very different to the last. Most of these boring unfulfilling or pointless jobs will either be automated or could be done away with completely. Socialism doesn't want that though, because it's obsessed with the concept of work and production. Yes we need to provide people with the means to support themselves and their family and live a decent quality of life, but the answer to that isn't making them work 12 hours a day so that they can buy shit they don't really need. We've got to come up with a different way of organising society where endless consumption and work are not the primary goals in life, and labour and other left wing parties are the only ones who are going to do that.
We’ve got to come up with a different way of organising society where endless consumption and work are the primary activities in life, and labour and other left wing parties are the only ones who are going to do that.
Are they? I have never seen it proposed and I can never see it working as much as I would love to.
Are they?
No they're not, and that's the problem. If you listen to Starmer and those around him they're completely hooked on the blue labour 'dignity of work' bollocks. For most people there is no real dignity in work or fulfillment beyond earning money. They compensate the amount of their lives they waste working buy buying stuff and going on holidays etc. It's the whole 'work hard, play hard' ethos which results in unsustainable consumption and massive mental health problems.
For most people there is no real dignity in work or fulfilment beyond earning money. They compensate the amount of their lives they waste working buy buying stuff and going on holidays etc. It’s the whole ‘work hard, play hard’ ethos which results in unsustainable consumption and massive mental health problems.
I have to say that this post, of all of them, resonates with me 100%, particularly the mental health aspect.
I do not know what the answer is. I'm not sure any one person does.
Such a shame that so much effort in these discussions comes back to the 'my dad's harder than your dad' or 'my dicks bigger than you dick' need to win. Put that effort into changing society and we might just make a change worth making? Just a thought. Expecting incineration imminently...
They compensate the amount of their lives they waste working buy buying stuff and going on holidays etc. It’s the whole ‘work hard, play hard’ ethos which results in unsustainable consumption and massive mental health problems.
And if a lot of people enjoy going on holiday, buying bikes to ride etc,. how do you convince them they should give that up and do whatever the alternative is?
How does the alternative work by the way as sounds like a nice dream but what does it look like in practice where nobody works but everyone has enough food, housing etc,. ?
how do you convince them they should give that up and do whatever the alternative is?
Why on earth would they have to give those up just because people worked a bit less?
what does it look like in practice where nobody works but everyone has enough food, housing etc,. ?
Who said nobody works? I'm talking about reducing the amount of work we do and eliminating pointless work. Those two things would solve most problems we have in our society. I know you struggle to imagine a world where anything is different to how it is now, but it's really not a great leap of the imagination to see how we could provide everyone with the basic means of life. We almost do it now through benefits etc but can't bring ourselves to do it properly because we're constrained by our stupid hangups about work ethic etc.
can’t bring ourselves to do it properly because we’re constrained by our stupid hangups about work ethic etc
I blame religion.
[ runs away ]
I’m talking about reducing the amount of work we do and eliminating pointless work. Those two things would solve most problems we have in our society. I know you struggle to imagine a world where anything is different to how it is now, but it’s really not a great leap of the imagination to see how we could provide everyone with the basic means of life. We almost do it now through benefits etc
So no people do pointless work and those doing non-pointless work do a reduced amount (how much reduced?) but can still go on holidays, buy bikes etc,.
Can you explain how that actually works?
It works pretty much the way it does now. Just less of it with a universal basic income to provide the basics for everyone. You really are the life and soul of the party aren’t you?
Just a healthy sceptic. An ideal opportunity to practise the arguments needed for the long hard work towards the general public excepting the idea. I’m won over, but am under no illusion just how resistant most Brits will be do it. We really need a separate UBI type thread, it pops up so often in this thread.
And that’s why this century will be very different to the last. Most of these boring unfulfilling or pointless jobs will either be automated or could be done away with completely.
Not really
There will still be refuse operatives, carers, people stacking shelves, etc etc not sure how you are automating the coffee from the machine to the table in that small cafe that does those really good bagels etc etc
'Anneliese Dodds 💙
@AnnelieseDodds
· 13h
Labour's new Stronger Together roadmap will bring Britain together for:
1⃣Better jobs and work
2⃣A green and digital future
3⃣Safe, secure communities
4⃣Public services that work
5⃣A future where families come first
6⃣Britain in the world
Let's build a future to be proud of'
There you have the future even though I'm not really sure what it all means.
As someone who has had a few low paid jobs I can say I have found dignity/ pleasure/ camararderie in those jobs.
Cleaning toilets is not going to be automated any time soon nor many other low paid jobs I'm afraid. People have been thinking they would be since the 50s.
My thinking is that dignity/ pleasure in your work is more connected to your mental health than the job itself.
Yes Labour should be big picture but also can we get a pay rise for nurses please? And for carers?
Yes Labour should be big picture but also can we get a pay rise for nurses please? And for carers?
Absolutely. There's a simple solution to how you get people to do the rubbish jobs. Pay them a lot more. Under a system such as UBI, crap but necessary jobs will be much better paying than they are now, otherwise no one will do them. Currently wages are linked to skills and education, when really they should be linked to social utility and value. Nurses and carers would be paid a lot more under a UBI system.
UBI and a shorter working week will turn the economy on it's head. Those in currently poorly paid jobs will have to be paid a lot more, those in fulfilling jobs and careers who enjoy them can carry on doing so, those who want to work 80 hours a week for a bank to make a million will still be able to do so, and those who can't work or don't want to will be able to do just that. All we need to do is abandon the stupid concept of work being virtuous and necessary.
Massive Tory majority in Chesham and Amersham overturned, and the hapless Starmy Army come in at fourth behind the Greens. There's subversion in the suburbs, the peasants are revolting and they now face a privet hedge as well as a red wall.
In Chesham and Amersham
2010 Labour 2492 votes (5.6%) Brown
2015 Labour 6712 votes (12.7%) Milliband
2017 Labour 11374 votes (20.6%) Corbyn
2019 Labour 7166 votes (12.9%) Corbyn
2021 Labour 622 votes (1.6%) Starmer
Massively tactical voting though.
So that's all right then, no-one needs to take responsibility.
Massive Tory majority in Chesham and Amersham overturned
Great news.
Lib Dems threw everything at it, and the Green vote share also dropped.
I really wouldn’t read too much into a drop of vote share in a seat where it was clear to everyone that tactical voting was the only was to GTTO and even then it was a stretch.
Batley and Spen might be a better test; assuming the Kipper vote goes Tory it could be close.
It wasn’t “a stretch”, it was a routing. It was something that seemed unlikely though, I’ll give you that.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1405690225263775748?s=21
More of this please. I really don’t want to wait ‘till I’m 90 for an elusive Labour majority government, I want fewer Conservative MPs as fast as possible… and preferably that party to also change course. I want decent (even if I disagree with them) Tory MPs sitting on the opposition benches staring at a Labour PM flanked with ministers from other parties.
@kelvin Yes, you’re right. It was a rout. As you say though, it looked like a stretch before.
I really wouldn’t read too much into a drop of vote share in a seat where it was clear to everyone that tactical voting was the only was to GTTO and even then it was a stretch.
Yes, but that was also the case in the previous elections for this seat. Does anyone know if Labour ran a serious campaign, or was it a paper candidate?
Does anyone know if Labour ran a serious campaign, or was it a paper candidate?
I’ve seen reports of Labour canvassers urging people to vote LD. I can imagine Green doing the same as well. How come this discussion is on the Kier Starmer thread rather than the thread dedicated to the leader of the party who were just stomped on in their heartland?
@ransos Not sure. Angela Rayner was there if the videos are to be believed but there’s a difference between running a serious campaign and creating the impression of one.
I really don’t care how Labour performed in this seat. Just as I don’t care if the LibDems lose their deposit in a Tory/Labour marginal seat where they’ve been coming fourth at recent elections. The voters need to wise up and play the system.
I live in Amersham (well Hyde Heath, but let's not split hairs). LD are always second to Conservatives in parliamentary elections (until now). Labour and Green are always quite a long way behind.
I've had multiple LD canvassers, loads of LD literature (flyers, newspapers). Conservative canvassers came round once just for a leaflet drop. Labour came round once, asked me who I was going to vote for - certainly didn't suggest I vote LD, seemed disappointed but not surprised when I told her I'd already voted LD as best chance of winning.
I wouldn't read anything into it re Labour - this was always about "anyone but the Conservatives"
The voters need to wise up and play the system.
Absolutely, and when Labour get in they need to introduce some form of PR
The LibDems have traditionally been very good at exploiting local issues in one-off elections and targeting resources effectively. In this case, looks like HS2/green belt type stuff.
Can Labour find relevant issues in the seats they need to win, and get better at grassroots engagement and campaigning?
Absolutely, and when Labour get in they need to introduce some form of PR
The trouble with FPTP is that the act of 'getting in' seems to make parties think it's working well for them, so why change it? The opportunity for PR is when you have no majorities and parties trying to do deals. The LibDems didn't fully exploit* that opportunity when they had the chance, and got rolled over by the Tories with a few token ministerial posts.
LD are always second to Conservatives in parliamentary elections (until now).
Apart from 2015 and 2017...
I think politics has been pretty volatile for a few years and will continue to be
I really don’t care how Labour performed in this seat.
You really don't care that Labour's vote collapsed completely, in a thread about Keir Starmer's leadership? Ok...
We're often told that Labour can only regain power by moving to the centre - that seems to have failed spectacularly here, and given that the party is haemorrhaging its traditional base, the "blue wall" is exactly where it needs to perform much more strongly to support its current strategy. The party really needs to find out where those 10,000 voters went, and why.
On the other hand I would be much more sanguine if the party made a strategic decision to not campaign too strongly here.
The voters need to wise up and play the system.
Non homogenous groups with little to no systems to allow them to do it, no trust, different requirements and ideologues need to come together in order to get an outcome that I want...
Absolutely, and when Labour get in they need to introduce some form of PR
Translation for Tory supporters: If you don't vote, When Labour get in next time, they'll fix it so you never see the govt you want ever again.
You really don’t care that Labour’s vote collapsed completely, in a thread about Keir Starmer’s leadership? Ok…
If Labour had done better, and the Tories had held the seat, would I pleased? Absolutely not.
The LibDems have been doing awfully for many reasons now (a run of poor leaders, being blamed for Tory policies because of the coalition, etc) and in some seats one of those reasons is because some of their vote went to the Tories where some people saw keeping Corbyn out of power as a prime motivation when it came to vote. Does Starmer inspire those people? I very much doubt it. Are they scared of him being PM in the same way as they were scared of Corbyn being PM? I doubt that as well.
On the other hand I would be much more sanguine if the party made a strategic decision to not campaign too strongly here.
I used to be a member of the Labour party in High Wycombe (just up the road) and really we had really limited funds and limited traction in the gated communities and 'burbs in Amersham, Marlow, Beaconsfield etc etc. Come election time, Central office were always pretty much saying "Here's a teeny amount of cash for "campaigning", you may as well go to the pub and have a massive piss up"
If Labour had done better, and the Tories had held the seat, would I pleased? Absolutely not.
I believe you, but don't think that's relevant to my question.
From my perspective, if Labour's vote had held up, it would be some evidence that they could compete in more marginal Tory seats in the south.
I believe you, but don’t think that’s relevant to my question.
I've told you my answer already. Labour could have lost their deposit in this seat, and if the result is we lose a Conservative MP, I am absolutely fine with that.
As far as Starmer is concerned, I still see him as just keeping the seat warm, and want someone else in there as leader a year out from a general election. I think Labour will stick with him 'till he loses a general election though, as they just don't have the system in place to move leaders on when they need to be.
it would be some evidence that they could compete in more marginal Tory seats in the south.
I don't think single by-elections are ever a good indicator of anything are they? I mean, look at Hartlepool a couple of weeks ago. Labour candidate was a doctor who voted to close the local hospital; local issues are always a "thing". This isn't a sign that Tory vote is collapsing or that Lib Dems re on the rise anymore that is shows Labour have got a strategy to win over folks that are either farmers or rich Lawyers/fat business cows