Forum menu
Because Starmer is indeed to the left of many Labour voters.
Maybe although outside of his please vote for me campaign I am struggling to see when he has really given sufficient insight into his own beliefs and motivation for that judgement to be made.
Which left wing polices must you vocally support to not be labelled a centrist?
What policies do you need to support to be called hard left?
Centrist is a term used by many to describe themselves although there does seem to be an effort to replace it with "moderate" or "progressive". Both of which are heavily loaded terms hence I avoid them.
They are not just employers… they are at the heart of everything we do, from having a beer, to life saving drugs, to making bikes, to selling us toilet rolls.
Thanks for the economics lesson. I never realised economic activity outside of the government was delivered via businesses 😉 Sarcasm aside though, that's my point, business doesn't exist because of government, it exists because people naturally collaborate and trade with each other in a multitude of specialised activiities. Business will always exist irrespective of what government does because it's integral to human behaviour. Politicians don't have to 'support' business any more than it has to support breathing. In fact they don't support business, they support specific business people to gain an advantage over others, often because they stand to gain personally from it.
Business will always exist irrespective of what government does because it’s integral to human behaviour.
And everything every business does is touched by government. Everything. Most voters know this. Many, sadly, see Labour as being anti-Business… hence the attempts to explicitly claim and show otherwise by Labour now. Many fear an over-correction, understandably, but the evidence for that seems slim, so far. There will be an actual policy correction come an election though, much of the 2019 manifesto will be dumped in this area… that’s what some are against I suppose.
Politicians don’t have to ‘support’ business any more than it has to support breathing.
It’s like a right wing fantasy, where government just needs to “stay out of the way”. It’s just nonsense.
Many, sadly, see Labour as being anti-Business
and given the opinions being expressed on this thread by our more left-leaning comrades, it’s not hard to see why.
Saying that business operates irrespective of and independently of government is just brainless nonsense.
Tell that to the business owners about to go bust due to Brexit, or any of their (soon to be former) employees
I don’t think those presently in charge of the Tory party have any more understanding of, or sympathy for how businesses functions or any more idea of what it needs, so that presents an opportunity for Labour.
But apparently that’s verboten. Do anything in the interests of ‘business’ , or even engage with the subject and you’re apparently lobbying to give Jeff Bezzos a tax cut. 🙄
It’d obviously be beneficial for the Labour parties attitude to private enterprise to develop beyond the sub-6th form level nonsense of the last regime
Not all businesses should be seen in the same light. A restauranteur might have fantasies of a Jamie Oliver empire and think voting tory is part of that package but objectively they are employees of the landlord whose weight of dead wealth they have to continually supplement before anyone gets a bean.
And that’s your carefully considered, thoughtful interpretation of how business operates, is it?
Brilliant!
Binners are you pro-rentier capitalism now? I do wonder whether you’re in the wrong party. You know that thing you keep saying about dealing with the world as it is instead of how you want it to be? Well I’m not sure the Labour Party is the party you want it to be.
But apparently that’s verboten.
Once again what do you actually mean by "business". Its odd considering your rants about six formers that I have had far more challenging conversations with some six form politics or business studies students. Maybe I should try art students instead?
So what do you mean by pro-business?
How does that reflect in the obvious conflicts between a large multinational and a small supplier to said multinational?
What about how we structure income support so we arent allowing a business to externalise some of the costs onto the public purse.
Seems topical...
Starmer repeating all his points about the NHS pay and budget at PMQs... importantly linking it to trust and promises... the gap between Johnson's rhetoric and policy as regards the NHS needs hammering home.
And still, no-one cares... PMQs has become utterly irrelevant.
As I said... repeating all his points... he's made them in the more "relevant" ways as well... traditional and social media etc... this is just one more opportunity to push this point... he and the Labour front bench have used every chance they can to do so over the past few days... they have not kept it just for PMQs, have they... it's just reinforcement, and the only public opportunity to link those points directly to the PM in person, face to face.
he and the Labour front bench have used every chance they can to do so over the past few days…
It doesn't matter that he keeps repeating it, what matters is that he finds a way for it to cut through, and on that he's sadly failing. Boris just batted it away as normal.
PS. Why do you keep writing like that with ... between statements? What's wrong with normal sentences?
the gap between Johnson’s rhetoric and policy as regards the NHS needs hammering home.
And yet he is failing to do so. Johnson seems to have caught onto how he can just ignore the questions and just say what he likes whereas Starmer doesnt seem to have been able to adjust to this and still seems to think it is a debate.
I guess to be fair to Starmer no one else has managed either. Looking at the guardian live list of question answers really is bizarre with him rarely answering even the tory lapdog questions directly.
Well, Nurses pay is now being discussed on all the lunchtime news broadcasts... and I hope will be in the evening ones as well. Not sure what you mean by "cutting through"... but the public are being given every chance to hear about the "pay cut for Nurses" after all they've been through and all they've done during the pandemic... and hanging that around Johnson's neck is an ongoing effort... how people respond to that, and for how long it sticks, remains to be seen.
As for your PS dazh... I'm breaking it down... making it simple... why do you care?
All true dissonance. There have been very few "Prime Ministers Answers" for over a year now. But the questions still need to be asked. Johnson's arrogant and aloof approach to avoiding scrutiny is still working for him exceptionally well. Will that ever stop working for him with voters? I don't know.
Starmer doesnt seem to have been able to adjust to this and still seems to think it is a debate.
It's funny because binners always slags off Corbyn for using PMQs as a platform for a bit of a rant, but at least every now and again he'd get on the news after causing a bit of a barney. With Starmer it's so boring it doesn't even get reported. 'Starmer asks question which Boris doesn't answer. Again!' isn't really a headline anyone's interested in.
As for your PS dazh… I’m breaking it down… making it simple… why do you care?
Do you realise that comes across as qutie 'mansplainy'? I don't really care, just curious as I've never seen anyone else do it.
And yet he is failing to do so. Johnson seems to have caught onto how he can just ignore the questions and just say what he likes whereas Starmer doesnt seem to have been able to adjust to this and still seems to think it is a debate.
It's not just Starmer. That shameless shyster has used the cover of the effect lockdown has had on media to completely bypass any accountability whatsoever. Its not that he doesn't answer Starmers questions at PMQ and just rambles instead, he doesn't answer anyones questions EVER. The only contact the media has with the PM or any government minister is via a stage-managed press conference. Watch Boris there. He just completely ignores any question and delivers pre-prepared soundbites instead. And because the journalist is on the other end of a zoom line, they're cut off and have no comeback
This government has effectively devised a method of bypassing even the slightest hint of direct scrutiny and accountability
This isn't just a problem for the leader of the labour party, this is a major problem for our whole system of democracy. Can you see them just reverting back to how it was before now that they've given themselves such an easy ride? No... me neither.
It’s funny because binners always slags off Corbyn for using PMQs as a platform for a bit of a rant, but at least every now and again he’d get on the news after causing a bit of a barney
I slagged him for using PMQ's to deliver a shouty ten-second soundbite to be tweeted out to the cult-members that afternoon. It became so formulaic... mumble, mumble, mumble... SHOUTY TEN SECOND SOUNDBITE!!!!... mumble, mumble, mumble.... that all the Tory benches would cheer him doing it. It became a running joke in the press
Is the speaker implicit in allowing Johnson to get away with not answering, would a Bercow drive with a heavier hand?
This government has effectively devised a method of bypassing even the slightest hint of direct scrutiny and accountability
What they need is some 'effective', and 'credible' opposition. 😂
See also his use of personal photographers employed at the public expense but directly accountable to him/his PR team rather than the civil service, to take staged propaganda pictures of him supposedly working, or out playing with his cute dogs etc, while denying access to press reporters, because COVID.
Is the speaker implicit in allowing Johnson to get away with not answering, would a Bercow drive with a heavier hand?
He's pulled him up repeatedly for just ignoring the question. Johnson just ignores him too
It's true that SKS needs to fire at the tories from the TV, just relying on PMQs isn't doing the job. He should decide which news programme (C4 news I suspect) will give him a fair run, he needs to prep for the awkward questions and use Track'n'Trace as the biggest stick.
Is the speaker implicit in allowing Johnson to get away with not answering, would a Bercow drive with a heavier hand?
He’s pulled him up repeatedly for just ignoring the question. Johnson just ignores him too
Thereby proving what an ineffectual waste of space he is. Really don't see the point of the current "speaker" other than a point of reference when making a statement.
Really don’t see the point of the current “speaker” other than a point of reference when making a statement.
He was picked to be the opposite of his predecessor. He's a laptop lapdog ... and his occasional reprimands are made in a way that the PM can make a joke about and laugh off.
needs to fire at the tories from the TV
He does. But his style is so dull it floats past most of the audience. He's not exactly the kind of person you want on Have I Got News For You, or The Apprentice. He's really not TV material, is he.
One year in, leader of the opposition.
Successful first year?
Anyone want to tell me about his successes so far?
His strengths as labour leader?
Any positives?
He’s really not TV material, is he.
Not sure he's politician material either. Given his disastrous brexit policy which handed the tories a majority, and his unswerving ability to piss off his own members and supporters whilst boring everyone else to death I'm seriously beginning to wonder what he's good at.
So, we're doing "it's Starmer that lost the 2019 election" now are we? Right you are...
I suppose that was the inevitable destination really...
I'm going to have to quote Dazh's prediction about Binners at the start of this thread, as in hindsight, it's pretty funny...
One thing I know you won’t be doing is giving Starmer any credit for whatever he does or says because the only thing you do on here is have a go at the labour party whoever it’s led by.
LOLZ
Still nothing?
I’m going to have to quote Dazh’s prediction about Binners at the start of this thread
Funny old world isn't it. It just shows how much Starmer is the opposite of what he claimed to be in the leadership campaign, and why so many are extemely pissed off about it. Betraying the people who elected you, especially when it was entirely unnecessary, is an interesting way to start your leadership term, and the results are there for all to see.
So, we’re doing “it’s Starmer that lost the 2019 election” now are we? Right you are…
You have this arse about face: the narrative to date has been that everything was Corbyn's fault.
I actually admired Starmer's willingness to serve under Corbyn (in contrast to the toy throwers) but there's little doubt that the Brexit policy he was responsible for was a complete mess.
Betraying the people who elected you
I elected him. I don't feel betrayed.
This betrayal idea is utter nonsense. And utterly boring. I mean, Starmer is pretty dull, but the onslaught on him since Long-Bailey and Corbyn both messed up and had to be dealt with has been utterly boringly predictable, and the gift that keeps giving for the Tories. I suspect it'll get worse still yet. Getting the "Starmer is Judas" Corbyn supporters on side now really can't be done with policy statements, even if now was the time to set out detailed national policy (and it isn't). It would need some other kind of gesture. Who knows what... perhaps putting Burgon on the front bench? Something that insane. They need some kind of symbolic continuation of the Corbyn years to be brought back on side.
Binners you know full well that Starmer owes his victory to tens of thousands of previous Corbyn supporters who voted for him based entirely on his promise to maintain the policies and work positively with the left to uniify the party. He's done exactly the opposite on both fronts and has allowed Boris to get away with presiding over 120k deaths and billions diverted to his mates in a the most brazen displays of corruption ever seen in a supposedly 'advanced' democracy. His reward for that is floundering polls, a completely fractured and demoralised party, indifference in the country, and the near certainty of an extended majority for Johnson at the next election. Still, it's ok because they got one over the '6th formers'. Job done!
Binners you know full well that Starmer owes his victory to tens of thousands of previous Corbyn supporters who voted for him based entirely on his promise to maintain the policies and work positively with the left to uniify the party.
Quite. I had imagined that Starmer's managerial competence, allied with a desire for unity and continuing popular policies could make Labour into a very effective opposition. Well, I got that wrong.
continuing popular policies
Which popular policies have been dropped?
Which popular policies have been dropped?
He is on record saying that "the slate is wiped clean" with regard to the ten pledges he made during his leadership campaign.
You may argue that this is an inevitable consequence of the pandemic, fine. What does he propose instead?
I’m not talking about his pledges to members, such as opaque talk about unity. Which popular Labour Party Policies have been dropped since Starmer has become leader? The outward facing stuff. What Labour will do if they govern, not the inwards facing party management stuff. There are many “Brexit is done” changes as regards FoM etc, but other than that, what popular Labour polices have been walked back on since 2019?
From an avowedly socialist site but this goes into pretty good detail about which have been kept and which haven't
What Labour will do if they govern
We don't know, do we? As I keep saying, Starmer has failed dismally in giving us any idea of what he thinks the Labour party should be for. Other than waving flags.
But as I thought was obvious, I was referring to commitments he made during his leadership campaign, which he has dropped. "Thanks for your votes, now eff off."
He is on record saying that “the slate is wiped clean” with regard to the ten pledges he made during his leadership campaign.
Is he? When? If he’s on the record then you’ll have no problems providing the evidence of that then comrade
Let’s see it then? I’m calling bollocks on that, because if he’d done any such thing we’d have been able to hear that outraged Islington squeals from up here in Manchester
All i’ve heard so far is the usual paranoid, persecution-complex, tinfoil-helmet, evidence-free, conspiracy-theory claptrap from inside the usual achingly predictable lefty bunkers
Thanks @grum
Any thoughts about what’s behind that link? I agree that short term taxation policy has shifted in light of the pandemic and dreadful post Brexit trading arrangements. Not much else in there that really suggests any dropping of any other “popular policy”. They seem quite fair handed though…
“ Keir Starmer has not yet started any illegal wars. ”
Is he? When? If he’s on the record then you’ll have no problems providing the evidence of that then comrade
Let’s see it then? I’m calling bollocks on that, because if he’d done any such thing we’d have been able to hear that outraged Islington squeals from up here in Manchester
All i’ve heard so far is the usual paranoid, persecution-complex, tinfoil-helmet, evidence-free, conspiracy-theory claptrap from inside the usual achingly predictable lefty bunkers
I suppose it's possible that you're less of a dick than that nasty little tirade makes you sound.
We discussed it on this very thread three months ago. I'm not surprised that you've forgotten, because all you have is a small selection of pictures and replies you cut and paste, regardless of what is being presented: the epitome of an attention-seeking empty vessel.
You chose to ignore it then, and you'll ignore it now. Why? Because when your beliefs are challenged by evidence, you choose to ignore evidence.
He is on record saying that “the slate is wiped clean” with regard to the ten pledges he made during his leadership campaign.
Do you have a link to him saying this on the record? I’d like to see the context. The phrase itself seems very plausible, and in many areas would be welcome, but what exactly was it applied to?
You chose to ignore it then, and you’ll ignore it now. Why? Because when your beliefs are challenged by evidence, you choose to ignore evidence.
Evidence? What evidence? You see, that’s where your argument breaks down
If he’s ‘on the record’ - your words - then you’ll have no problem supplying evidence of that
You haven’t
So basically he’s not on the record of saying anything of the sort, is he?
Thought not
I’d have a bit more sympathy for your opinions if you didn’t just make stuff up
This is all I can find googling “Starmer the slate is wiped clean”…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37430736
Do you have a link to him saying this on the record? I’d like to see the context. The phrase itself seems very plausible, and in many areas would be welcome, but what exactly was it applied to?
If you go back to page 69 of this thread, you'll find the Guardian interview with the quote and our subsequent discussion of it. I actually have some sympathy for his argument that the pandemic has rewritten the rules, but as he has singularly failed to articulate what he would do instead, I'm left with the uncomfortable feeling of being the victim of a cynical fiction.
Really, if he quit tomorrow, what would people remember about him?
Really, if he quit tomorrow, what would people remember about him?
Captain hindsight.
Guardian article:
Starmer is now putting a lot of distance between himself and those pledges, using the coronavirus crisis as his alibi. “The slate has been wiped pretty clean for everyone,” he contends, arguing that the pandemic means that both Labour and the Tories “are going to have to fundamentally rethink what they want to offer the electorate in 2024”.
Captain hindsight.
Flag shagging.
You going to retract your lie now binners or just storm off and let the speaker 'clarify'?
Binners you know full well that Starmer owes his victory to tens of thousands of previous Corbyn supporters who voted for him based entirely on his promise to maintain the policies and work positively with the left to uniify the party.
I see this utter nonsense has reared it's head again. Starmer may well owe his victory to previous Corbyn supporters, like me, but it's because he was the most credible candidate and the left put up a team so uninspiring that 'normal' Labour voters like me didn't give them a second thought. He also won because normal Labour voters realised that continuing down the path that had just handed the Tories an 80 seat majority wasn't a very good idea.
You going to retract your lie now binners or just storm off and let the speaker ‘clarify’?
I don't think that binbins is likely to reflect on his conduct, do you?
“The slate has been wiped pretty clean for everyone”
Thank for the actual quote and the context…
arguing that the pandemic means that both Labour and the Tories “are going to have to fundamentally rethink what they want to offer the electorate in 2024”
I agree with that. Who doesn’t?
Captain hindsight.
Johnson has quite a hold on Dazh now, doesn’t he.
I would like to see somebody go full Paxman at PMQs.
"You haven't answered the question"
"Mr Speaker he hasn't answered the question"
"I have more questions prepared but I will ask this one again as..."
etc
Starmer needs to get some attention somehow.
You going to retract your lie now binners or just storm off and let the speaker ‘clarify’?
Don’t be ridiculous. What about the context? If you can interpret that to mean what you’re saying it means then there’s some pretty hefty lateral thinking at play
I’m going to stick with my original statement
All i’ve heard so far is the usual paranoid, persecution-complex, tinfoil-helmet, evidence-free, conspiracy-theory claptrap from inside the usual achingly predictable lefty bunkers
Straight out of the Boris Johnson school of never owning up to your mistakes or taking responsibility for what you say. I really think you are confused about which party you ought to be supporting.
grum
Free Member
You going to retract your lie now binners or just storm off and let the speaker ‘clarify’
LOL
U OK HUN? XX
Devastating. 🙄
I'm going to do my best at staying away from this thread again, it's pointless 'debating' with people who just move the goalposts when they're proved wrong.
I’m going to stick with my original statement
The sad truth is that you're a liar, and are too pathetic to admit when you've been caught out. See also: Boris Johnson.
I really think you are confused about which party you ought to be supporting
Not really. Noting the hysterical petticoat-soiling of the Corbyn brigade makes me pretty sure I’m in the right party, thanks 😃
Maybe it’s you who’s confused. The Corbynite ideology you espouse has just been tested to destruction. Twice. The last time it gifted Bos Johnson - BORIS ****ING JOHNSON - an80 seat majority FFS!
Is the socialist workers party still going? I’m sure they’d be happy to have you
The sad truth is that you’re a liar, and are too pathetic to admit when you’ve been caught out. See also: Boris Johnson.
Living down to expectations...
Johnson has quite a hold on Dazh now, doesn’t he.
Considering the fact in the past year that Boris has implemented a lot of the Corbyn agenda and Starmer seems to be doing his best Ken Clarke/John Major impression I'd say it's not a massive leap to suggest that Boris is to the left of Starmer right now. Obviously covid skews things but it's one explanatiion for why he's doing so well.
Sucker.
Hurling abuse doesn't make for interesting or amusing discussion. Christ, don't we know it.
I’d say it’s not a massive leap to suggest that Boris is to the left of Starmer right now.
You’re absolutely right. Starmer would definitely have appointed Dido Harding to a position of oversight over the NHS and given 37 billion quid of taxpayers money to Serco, KPMG and Delloite for a totally ****ing useless test and trace system, handed out yet more tens of billions to rich crony mates of his cabinet for dodgy PPE contracts, carried on a public sector pay freeze apart from a measly 1% to the NHS and renged on the Northern Ireland protocol to potentially scupper the GFA and start a trade war with the EU
He’d definitely have done all that! Without a doubt. The bastard!
Christ on a bendybus... what planet do you lot live on?
Not a massive leap? Seriously, mate... get a grip. Boris instigating a Corbynite agenda? Mate... taking acid, midweek? 😂
Starmer would definitely have appointed Dido Harding to a position of oversight over the NHS and given 37 billion quid of taxpayers money to Serco, KPMG and Delloite
Based on the overwhelming evidence that Starmer does almost everything his former new labour backers tell him, there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't have also looked to the private sector in the same situation. They would have been a bit more shy about the cronyism but the end result wouldn't have been too different. Privatisation of the NHS began long before the tories won power and turbo-charged it. Also given the fact that labour are currently the party of fiscal restraint, that obviously translates to squeezed public sectore salaries, so the nurses would probably be a litttle better off under Starmer, but not by much.
Boris instigating a Corbynite agenda? Mate… taking acid, midweek? 😂
I presume you've missed all the criticisms of Boris from rightwing tories? They're all going mental that covid has forced them to be more socialist than any government before them. Benefits hikes, furlough, bailouts for businesses, money printing, bans on evictions, nationalising and/or subsidising of industry. What we've experienced in the past year has been far beyond most of what Corbyn ever dreamed of. Now obviously it's all under very special cirumstances, so they don't get any credit, and they should have done a lot more, but those are the facts, and it's the reason Boris is doing very well in the polls whilst Starmer and Dodds talk about financial 'responsibility' as opposed to 'whatever it takes'.
It's a bit weird because you massively overestimate the differences between the two parties under Johnson and Starmer. There's almost nothing between them. It's also highly ironic because before Starmer there were real differences where labour actually had labour party policies but as we all know you weren't too keen on that.
As a PAYE freelancer, I and 3.5 million others who’ve been excluded from all government support for the last 12 months can give you chapter and verse about the vacuity of ‘whatever it takes’.
It’s a meaningless soundbite.
Starmer has repeatedly asked about us in parliament and been ignored,but at least he’s trying
So from a personal standpoint I’ve not got a right lot of time for the idea that Boris is the new Nye Bevan and Starmer is the new Thatcher
I do find it ironic that some of the most militant lefties who’ve been on the receiving end of Rishis largesse are slagging Starmer and comparing him unfavourably to Boris while those of us left out in the cold, in the real world, are largely supportive of someone who’s stuck up for us.
Massive honourable mention on this score goes to Ian Blackford and the SNP
There’s been a conspicuous silence from ‘the left’, who seem to have more pressing issues with Indian Farmers and Cuban doctors 🙄
Of course the lack of support for freelancers is a massive hole in the support which has been provided. They are tories after all. But the comparison still stands. The bigger picture is that despite glaring omissions such as support for freelancers, Boris has been more 'left wing' than almost any other prime minister in history. Starmer had an opportunity to take advantage, and go beyond his support for the government and identification of the holes in their policies. He could have followed the SNP for example by demanding a UBI. He could have proposed a sweeping stimulus like the US has just voted through. Has he done that? No, instead he's talked about 'responsibility' and balancing the books. He's missed a massive opportunity to shift the debate towards radical progressive policies which would naturally follow the policies forced by covid, but instead he opted for waving flags and pointless battles with his own members. He'll go down as one of the worst labour leaders in history.
Won't someone think of the graphic designers from Ramsbottom who only have 'contracts with major cosmetics firms' to rely on?
Given the year I’ve just had...
You can * right off!!!
You haven’t got a *ing clue, you *ing *!
FFS lads keep it friendly. This is only a diverting bit of fun (?).
Given the year I’ve just had…
You can * right off!!!
You haven’t got a *ing clue, you *ing *!
If you can't take it, stop dishing it out.