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Time to remind ourselves that it was Ed Miliband who kept is out of the Syria conflict.
I think some people would be a lot happier if he was waving a placard
Is that the best you can do?
Well, it's more entertaining than fantasising about Starmer waving flags and wearing medals because of something Biden is doing that has absolutely nothing to do with the opposition Labour party in the UK, or their party leader.
Time to remind ourselves that it was Ed Miliband who kept is out of the Syria conflict.
Ed Miliband did what he could to keep us from "chaos". Really wish I'd voted for Labour when he was leader, in hindsight. If it wasn't for all the tablet of stone controls on immigration stuff, I probably would have.
Well, it’s more entertaining than fantasising about Starmer waving flags and wearing medals because of something Biden is doing that has absolutely nothing to do with the opposition Labour party in the UK, or their party leader.
It was a response to an attack on the US-led coalition in Iraq, of which we're a member. A perfect opportunity to wave a flag in lieu of any meaningful opposition.
I think we should try and get Iraq on every page of every thread about Labour. It reminds me why I didn't vote for Labour under Blair and Brown... which I also now regret, in hindsight.
Actually, I just read the story about Mr Potatohead and think it's the perfect opportunity for Starmer: tough on woke, tough on the causes of woke.
You know that nobody apart from tabloid hacks, Nigel Farage and now you has ever used the word ‘woke’, right?
You know that nobody apart from tabloid hacks, Nigel Farage and now you has ever used the word ‘woke’, right?
You used it in your post: you are Nigel Farage AICMFP.
You used it in your post: you are Nigel Farage AICMFP.
Good come back.
Thanks!
Everyone to the right of Owen Jones is a fascist bastard!
Repeating this obvious truism is a guaranteed route to government
Repeating this obvious truism is a guaranteed route to government
No, you're right. What we should do instead is wave flags and agree with the Tories. It's working really well.
Good comeback.
Imagine his face this morning...
Not difficult as he only has 1 expression.
Otters' noses?
Larks' tongues?
Not difficult as he only has 1 expression.
Okay, that made me laugh.
This makes some good points imo.
Most people on this thread would prefer a Labour party to a Tory party.
Some of us would prefer Labour even if not the perfect Labour party that fits every single one of our ideals
But there is very little support for how Starmer comes across or what he is saying/how he is acting so that is all you need to know isn't it - he doesn't even do it for his own parties supporters.
As the video I posted says, he just comes across as lacking integrity because he's trying to disavow himself of the Corbyn years which he himself was a part of and defended. So he was either lying then or lying now.
Combine that with seeming to be led by focus groups and his wealthy backers and it's a very unappealing prospect.
Interested to know how businesses can be made to invest when a lack of investent has resulted from the availability of cheap labour which, sadly, I can see increasing with economic dislocation. When property prices rise people spend money plus the reverse, it's going to be very uneven. Given the two parties have a similar 'household' perspective around government debt I can only see the post-Covid economy as increasing our world-beating levels of inequality.
Guidelines for a structured critique of this: sixth form, pinko, allotments, granddad, father Ted, Monty Python, eating organs, protest, placard, student, 'idealogical' and then a sneer in place of conclusion. If I was on the bones of my arse I hope at least I'd be aiming at the right target.
Where Starmer has positioned himself politically I think he has no critique for the tories so all he'll be able to do is squeak and cheer slightly from the sidelines and take no benefits for the 'opposition' and Johnson will bumble on ahead.
Starmer and the party are stale.
It's the PLP who are happy in opposition not the left of the party. & it's not really opposition is it?
Most people on this thread would prefer a Labour party to a Tory party.
If they do the same things I couldn't care less which is in power. In fact there's a strong argument that if we're destined to run the country with conservative poiicies, then we're much better off with the politicians who actually believe in them. That's why people vote tory, because they believe in what they'e doing and aren't ashamed of carrying it through. Labour under Starmer on the other hand are terrified of promoting and implementing the things that the labour party was setup to do, and the voters justifiably conclude that they don't deserve power if they're not going to stand up for what they supposedly believe in.
Most people in this country still naively believe that politicians exist to serve the public, whilst most politicians think they are above the people. Right now Starmer looks every bit the out of touch elitest establishment stooge, whilst Johnson is doing a pretty good job of portrayiing himself as a man of the people. That's why Johnson gets the benefit of the doubt. Labour need to ditch Starmer now, because at this rate they risk replicating in England what they achieved in Scotland.
This makes some good points imo.
It doesn't just make good points, it absolutely nails the issue with the labour party. What I don't understand is why all the members, trade unions and MPs who form the majority don't organise themselves to eject the careerists like Starmer and Rayner et al, or leave en masse to setup a new party. The careerists wouldn't last long without the mass support that the membership and unions give them.
Interesting points. I've just been out and got the Telegraph and the Times, both completely reactionary but they shoot from the hip unlike the Guardian post Rusbridger. The LP might convince people that life will be different under them so they're told don't protest, strike or rock the boat, the only way forward is via your vote every half decade. It's about closing down effective opposition.
The budget will doubtless be full of 'training schemes' and 'work experience' (remember ET? Extra tenner?) to keep people from protesting on the streets and allowing employers access to almost free labour ('I'm backing Britain'). When the tories clapped and cheered when the nurses didn't get a pay rise, they meant it. They will argue 'you were only doing your job' whilst spaffing £22bn at Serco (who report only £168m profit, something going on there). By not taking a lead in serious opposition the LP are effectively just lining up with the establishment and leaving the potential leadership of any backlash to the left, whom they so despise.
Starmer and Labour have a nuclear option. If I were them I would come out openly and say "Brexit is a colossal mistake. Tory-driven and delivered for Tories to exploit the gullible. It is going to damage this country's recovery from covid, perhaps irreparably. We are here for you, internationalist and sensible, for when you grow up". Then hammer the Tories on everything, ending with "if it wasn't for Brexit this buffoon wouldn't be PM".
The problem is the spectre of the Red Wall Racists who jumped ship at the first opportunity to air their prejudices.
We are here for you, internationalist and sensible, for when you grow up
Yes that's really going to persuade the voters that they're not elitest and out of touch. The very fact that you of all people think this is the answer only confirms my view. Honestly between Starmer and his focus groups and people like yourself Johnson has the easiest job in the world. He really is the luckiest politician ever to have existed.
Yes, Johnson has been lucky with his opponents. I see Starmer as the janitor who clears up Corbin's mess, the steps aside for someone with more oomph... (Who though???)
I agree with Steelfreak. And that task of distancing the party from Corbyn and his closest and most vocal supporters is what so many are really upset about. The party has to become the alternative choice for government in the eyes of the public, and that means ditching much that some hold close to their heart in terms of the image of the Party. They want ‘a strong opposition’… a red faced angry performance and thousands of people behind placards that turn so many voter away. I want the Tories out, and a government that governs for us all installed instead. Sadly I really don’t see that happening before 2029. The Labour Party just don’t have the killer instinct to change their leader in 2023, ready for the next election. It just won’t happen. Depressing, but there you are.
don’t organise themselves to eject the careerists like Starmer and Rayner
Did you not vote for both of them? I think Rayner has really proven herself since taking on her role as it happens. Good luck with the “ejection”… at some point it will become glaringly obvious that it needs to happen. But it won’t. Unless Starmer has the sense to stand down at the right time. As Corbyn should have done in the May years.
If I were them I would come out openly and say “Brexit is a colossal mistake. Tory-driven and delivered for Tories to exploit the gullible. It is going to damage this country’s recovery from covid, perhaps irreparably. We are here for you, internationalist and sensible, for when you grow up”.
While you and I might revel in that… we wouldn’t be nearly as happy as Gove and the other Conservative strategists… they would be thinking that all their dreams had been answered…
The best way to distance yourself from what went before is to set out your vision.
The tories are introducing a 5% deposit for first-time buyers. They can obviously see all the evictions on the horizon but they last issue they will address is social housing.
Now there's an opportunity to set out a vision (cladding too).
I think Labour would do well to market themselves simply as:
Labour. For people who aren't ****s.
Or words to that effect.
Yes that’s really going to persuade the voters that they’re not elitest and out of touch.
Well someone's got to tell them at some point. Otherwise, what's the strategy? Pander to their petty racism and insularity forevermore?
Did you not vote for both of them?
I did, and what a mistake that was! I was naive enough to take Starmer's promises at face value and thought Rayner was an excellent grassroots campaigning politiician from the left side of the party. Given Rayner's solid, almost fawning support for Corbyn before she became deputy leader that wasn't an unreeasonable assumption about Rayner, but since then she's shown herself to be career politician who will say anything, and distance herself from previous allies to climb the greasy pole just like the rest of them. Both of them need to go, along with all the other career politicians and freeloaders in the party who don't give a **** about anything but themselves. Labour will never be the transformative, progressive party it was supposed to be with these parasites in charge.
I take it back about Rayner… this is idiotic… ignoring Jewish party leaders at this point is a hole that no deputy leader should be falling into…
https://twitter.com/angelarayner/status/1365622984757686272?s=21
I am so proud that our party has elected the first ever ethnic minority leader of a political party anywhere in the UK.
The idea of left v right in mainstream UK politics is an illusion.
It's right v right. You're voting on which colour/brand.
The moral superiority that Labour Party voters feel needs to be stripped away.
You're no better than any Tory/UKIP/Brexit Party supporter.
You believe exactly the same basic things.
And at least they're honest about what they support.
Had to read through the drivel of the last few pages, but this is a stunner:
And now Starmer says he’ll oppose tory corporation tax increases. He’s clearly concluded that the UK is so right wing that the only option s to be further to the right than Boris. F*** clueless.
I know the left have a charming naivety about them, but you lot really can't think more than 5 seconds ahead can you? IT'S A TRAP!
Tease a corporation tax rise to impress upon the proles that corporations will do their duty and be responsible in repaying the debt, when in reality the likes of Amazon, mentioned here quite a lot, will have their tax affairs well in order to avoid this, while leaving businesses who after covid and brexit can't afford to take up this slack.
If the tax rise is seen by the proles as 'responsible' then the next phase of responsibility falls on the proles. Cuts. Austerity. Its as clear as day. As mentioned further up the thread, I'm sure there will be initiatives, and schemes from the tories to make it look like they are 'doing something' to mitigate the job/business losses, but it will be pocket change.
The left unfortunately are showing their true colours, anything that isn't 'corbynite' is to be hated, in fact your hatred of starmer is all you now have, because you've got f all left to say to the rest of us after the election of 2019.
It's pretty obvious that we've got it wrong: just look how well Labour is doing.
Oh.
Cuts. Austerity. Its as clear as day.
Exactly. We should not be drawn into trying to use austerity when we are attempting to both recover from the pandemic, and pivot away from being part of a large home market to a small one increasing trade with distant markets. It would ruin lives. This is no time to be increasing Corporation Tax, or reducing Universal Credit… or any of the other “belt tightening” that falls between those two ends of an austerity drive. It will wreck us.
What copa said.
The left unfortunately are showing their true colours, anything that isn’t ‘corbynite’ is to be hated, in fact your hatred of starmer is all you now have, because you’ve got f*** all left to say to the rest of us after the election of 2019.
The left are showing the colours of believing in the things they always believed in, which the Labour party used to represent. It's beyond parody that the right of the Labour party undermined Corbyn at every turn, lied about their intentions during the leadership election (and refused to admit where their funding came from), took the party way to the right with no consultation and expelled him from the party, and then have the nerve to still blame him for their own woeful performance.
I doubt I'll ever vote Labour again tbh.
It’s pretty obvious that we’ve got it wrong: just look how well Labour is doing.
When they’ve lost seats that have been held for a few generations and handed the Torys an 80 seat majority, you can roll that one out.
I doubt I’ll ever vote Labour again tbh.
I’ll vote labour again when I see that they want to solve the problems in society which disadvantage and disenfranchise normal working people. I see almost no evidence now that they want to do that. I still think the party and wider movement does, but the vast majority of it’s MPs and bureaucrats don’t.
FFS Lisa Nandy, supposedly the authentic voice of northern working people, doesn’t even understand how corporation tax works.
The corporation tax thing is daft
If only because corporations aren't mega conglomerates that they're portrayed as and possibly are in the mid of the hard left
Theres been a huge drive to push businesses to incorporate
75% of UK businesses are incorporated now
Of those 45% are single employee!
A corporation tax is madness if you want the economy to grow & recover, because its the smallest businesses that will be hit hardest
What Starmer needs to be explaining is that a corporation tax is just austerity 2.0
He should be arguing that a tax on the biggest is fine but for the bulk it is just punitive at the worst possible time
Sunak should be offering them loans and grants
It is all too easy to reduce everything to some Kang & Kodos-like twirling, twirling, but the stark reality faces us.
In the absence of a credible third party, we live in what is essentially a facsimile of the US Democrat/Republican dichotomy. So what does that look like in England?
It looks like the choice between a Tory faction divorced entirely from reality, or a Labour party forced to tone down its more radical energies.
This will never be a difficult choice for me, yet i do see that that is a real problem.
When they’ve lost seats that have been held for a few generations and handed the Torys an 80 seat majority, you can roll that one out.
I had assumed that you weren't daft enough to equate criticism of Starmer with support for Corbyn.
Reasonably moderate Guardian article that 'gets' MMT - in a political context.
Corporation tax debate is a red herring.
No it doesn't need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.
I was chatting with a businessman round here about corporation tax rises and falls a couple of years ago and he smiled, looked at bit surprised and said 'does anyone pay it?' Someone said ^ it's all a bit symbolic and this experience would certainly suggest so. IANAA. Companies House had him down as £100m in assets.
No it doesn’t need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.
Which again goes back to my point that labour should be using the opportunities covid has presented to enliighten the voting public about how the economy really works. If they're going to persist with opposing corporation tax rises, then say that's because the debt incurred by covid does not need to be 'paid back', because it already has in the form of QE, but we need to address the fact that some have done very well out of the pandemic. Instead we get 'it will have to be paid back, just not yet', and 'we have to be friendly to business'. Everything they say is 30 years out of date.
Did anyone catch the programme on R4 last night about (amongst other things) ‘patriotism’ and Labour?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sgt1
Corporation tax debate is a red herring.
No it doesn’t need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.
Spot on.
Did anyone catch the programme on R4 last night
Thanks... will listen now.
A good history lesson... with just enough modern context. Depressing, but well considered.
I had assumed that you weren’t daft enough to equate criticism of Starmer with support for Corbyn.
A daft conclusion to which to jump. But it’s no surprise.
I must admit I am now getting disappointing with Starmer. He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit and the tories mess and hammering them on it not hi=ding from the topic for fear of upsetting the racists. there is an open goal in front of him here and he just turned away from it.
I must admit I am now getting disappointing with Starmer. He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit and the tories mess and hammering them on it not hi=ding from the topic for fear of upsetting the racists. there is an open goal in front of him here and he just turned away from it.
I'm getting that way too. Unfortunately he appears to be properly terrified of the Red Wall Racists. Looks like 'the B word' will get the redacted treatment and he'll bumble along ineffectually.
It's looking like being a disappointment for the grownups.
He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit
Why would he want to 'control' a debate that almost no one but a few rejoin diehards wants to have? Staying away from brexit is the only thing he's got right. It's highly illustrative however that he seems to have a talent for pissing almost everyone off. Far from repairing the 'damage' from Corbyn he's well on track to do even worse and lose more seats. I presume the centrists will use that as evidence they should be even more rightwing?
Hahahaha! And now it would appear as well as supporting Johnson at every turn, they can also copy his MO of doing u-turns when they realise they've f***** up. It's laughably incompetent.
Why would he want to ‘control’ a debate that almost no one but a few rejoin diehards wants to have?
Labour will need to start at some point if they want to sweep up all the broken Leavers when we start gradually rejoining by stealth in about 5 years. It will be too late by 2030 when we are basically back in the EU with a reduced 'say' and all the ****s look back on ten years of pointless hardship - and finally grow up.
Dazh - the vast majority of the country now accept brrexit as a huge error and he needs to control the debate not to be labelled as a remainer but to hamnmer the tories for the errors and hardship they are causing
sweep up all the broken Leavers
You say that with such inevitability 🙂 . The pro-brexit vote was an unholy alliance between diehard tories and pissed off working/under class. What on earth makes you think either of these groups are going to start voting labour under Starmer?
the vast majority of the country now accept brrexit as a huge error
Do they? The sense I get is that the jury is out and will be for some time. I wouldn't mistake a few pissed off fisherman and pig farmers as a consensus. I think the vast majority probably still think now as they did in 2016.
of doing u-turns
There is no u-turn … now is not the time to increase corporation tax. Longer term it is not just desirable, but inevitable.
You say that with such inevitability
Well it's either that or full fascism.
Ha, the corporation tax thing is the beginning of a new austerity narrative. “We’ve all got to pay for this sometime...just like your credit card bills folks...” And it’s a massive trap into which our ex-Corbynites are trying to walk straight into, because the chance to fire a few (what will be) ineffective shots at “business” is just too tempting. Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
I think the vast majority probably still think now as they did in 2016.
Your second 'think' needs some kind of qualifier.
Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
Yes, it's definitely the left making the political mistakes.
What you seem to be forgetting is that plenty of ex-Corbyn supporters voted for Starmer. I suspect they're bitterly disappointed with what they've seen so far.
Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
They were never too good at seeing the massive elephant trap, clearly visible from space, with the flashing neon signs saying ELEPHANT TRAP and big arrows pointing at it.
Grandad spent 5 years trying to clamber out of the latest one he’d blundered headlong into
Starmer, when asked about his three priorities for government, replied "capitulation, capitulation, capitulation".
What you seem to be forgetting is that plenty of ex-Corbyn supporters...
I don’t think you got what I meant by “ex-Corbynites.” But that’s ok. Possibly a bit on the subtle side for you.
I don’t think you got what I meant by “ex-Corbynites.” But that’s ok. Possibly a bit on the subtle side for you.
It's instructive that you chose to ignore what I said. Possibly my fault for making another daft assumption.
Starmer, when asked about his three priorities for government, replied “capitulation, capitulation, capitulation”.
I think "appeasement, appeasement, appeasement" would be closer to the mark.
Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.
I was honestly optimistic about Starmer and thought he could be a good person to make Labour more electable. He's been a bitter disappointment in every way.
with the flashing neon signs saying ELEPHANT TRAP and big arrows pointing at it.
Have you ever considered that instead of spending all their time looking for traps and trying to avoid them they should be setting a few of their own? It seems to me that if I were a politician, I'd be quite pleased if I managed to get the opposition to try and outdo me on my own principles rather than promoting their own. I'm afraid labour aren't even in the same league as the tory operation right now. It's like watching a 3rd round FA cup match with non-league journeymen against a premier league team, it's no wonderr Johnson looks so smug.
grum
Free MemberI was honestly optimistic about Starmer and thought he could be a good person to make Labour more electable. He’s been a bitter disappointment in every way.
Same here. I worried he'd get crucified for being a remainer, but as it turns out, it doesn't really matter- they can more or less just ignore him
Have you ever considered that instead of spending all their time
Who says they’re spending all their time looking for traps? This one, despite your not being able to see it, was pretty obvious. I’d be worried about them if they’d been spending all their time looking out for it. Maybe it might have taken you quite a while but I’m sure they’ve more important focus groups to be running in the meantime. 🙂
This one, despite your not being able to see it
Labour are busy trying not to fall into policy traps like corporation tax, whilst the tories have them abandoning their core principles and playing on the pitch of outdated 20th century economics. It's tactics vs strategy and labour look like amateurs.
And as for corporation tax, as I said previously it's not about using it to raise revenue to pay off the debt or keeping it low to boost the economy, it's about addressing the inequality caused by covid. Even the guardian gets it FFS, and labour, as is their MO under Starmer are way behind everyone else. Hardly a surprise when you have the likes of LIsa Nandy in the shadow cabinet who doesn't even know that corporation tax is levied on profits not income.
You contradict yourself so much. You want austerity measures to come while we’re in the middle of the worst economic downturn in our lifetimes, and accuse others of 20th century economics. Now is not the time to constrict anything, and Labour should not back the Tories if they choose to. In a few years, then redistributive taxation changes will be coming down the line, from the Tories, in preparation for the election as much as anything, and at that point Labour should embrace that as well, while pointing out who is being missed by whatever the Tories are proposing (and they will miss many, at both ends of the distribution, as they deliberately make fresh loopholes for the richest, and miss helping others at the bottom and middle through ignorance of their situations… they always do).
The next General Election will be in 2024.
How many of today's considerations do you think will still be in play?
Nice thread from Richard Murphy about money supply and the nonsense of government 'debt'.
Primer for MMT.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1366665012882857984?s=19
(Needs expanding. Quite lengthy)