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The Israeli government needs to change tactics, even faster.
They'll do nothing of the sort and it doesnt matter if of the 195 countries in the world 193 condemned them. As long as America doesn't, they'll ignore all the rest.
Without moving the USA, nothing will change. Anything UK politicians do and say must keep that in mind.
And the USA have moved... and more will come... hence all the language around "pause" and importantly "humanitarian". The language is chosen carefully to mean, "save the innocent" not "don't go after Hamas".
Personally, I don't think there is anyway to separate the suffering of the innocent and going after Hamas, and so the Israeli government shouldn't go after Hamas... but... after the events in October... that is simply not going to be supported in Israel or the USA.
@brownperson So you disagree with his principles and position, as is your right. I disagree with your assessment and agree with Starmer on this.
I think he shouldn’t have been led by the SNP and called a 3 line whip. Then again, as nickc says, it seems near to forgotten already. The Tories are winning the self-harm war.
@brownperson So you disagree with his principles and position, as is your right. I disagree with your assessment and agree with Starmer on this.
I think you undermine your own position on such matters, when you make statements such as this:
The valid comparison with Russia is Hamas – both kleptocratic dictatorships with a track record of oppression and political assassinations.
You cannot draw comparison with Russia and Hamas, yet ignore the screamingly obvious fact that it is in fact the Israeli regime that has far more in common with the Russian one than Hamas, in this regard. Because by ignoring this, you just appear partisan, and lacking in objectivity. You have to recognise this is you are going to engage in any meaningful debate.
To put it bluntly 10 years of Tory rule has killed many more people in this country than the IDF has in Gaza.
This is an incredibly thoughtless and offensive statement. It may not have been intended as such, but that's how it will be interpreted. To draw equivalence between the neglect and inaction of the UK government, and the active genocide now being carried out at the behest of the Israeli regime, is naive at best, and at worst, downright disgusting. And it definitely doesn't further any meaningful discussion.
Let's face it, many in political leadership positions believe the public regard the Palestinians as being less than entirely human.
And judging by some of the comments on this thread, they may not be that far wrong.
You can't see 5000 children killed in a month and not have a very strong and deep reaction. Unless you don't view these children as being 'real' children.
I'm sure I've acknowledged somewhere on this thread that Starmer can come across as a little stiff, boring and underwhelming personality wise. In fact, yeah, I vaguely recall saying that being boring is a good thing in a politician. And it becomes a positive strength when you see lines like:
he cares for little more than his own greed for power
Er, okay. It's his insatiable greed for moar power is it that drives him is it??: 🙂 . Sorry, most people are just going to smile when they see that. As with, I dunno, Gordon Brown, these folks are not ego-free but the actual motivation is more likely to be some dull notion of public service (which requires at times being an effective politician)
I’m not interested, @brownperson. You get too angry too quickly.
I’m sure I’ve acknowledged somewhere on this thread that Starmer can come across as a little stiff, boring and underwhelming personality wise. In fact, yeah, I vaguely recall saying that being boring is a good thing in a politician.
So he's managed to successfully convey that image to you. Clearly in that respect, he's successful.
Er, okay. It’s his insatiable greed for moar power is it that drives him is it??: 🙂 . Sorry, most people are just going to smile when they see that. As with, I dunno, Gordon Brown, these folks are not ego-free but the actual motivation is more likely to be some dull notion of public service (which requires at times being an effective politician)
I suppose those in denial might 'smile', but increasing numbers of people are starting to see Starmer for what he really is; an elitist wealthy establishment figure who is concerned with little more than gaining power. He may once have had some principles, but he sold those out long ago for the possibility of a place at the big table. I don't see many people 'smiling' about Starmer. As for 'some dull notion of public service'; possibly towards those who will offer him the rewards he seeks. In my experience he only really appeals to affluent middle class liberals, not working class people, disadvantaged minorities or people of colour etc. He's not offering anyone outside of his own socioeconomic demographic anything of substance.
I’m not interested, @brownperson. You get too angry too quickly.
The only thing I'm angry about (in this context) is the genocide we are now witnessing in Gaza, and the blinkered nihilism of Hamas. Instead of trying to ascribe your own connotations of the emotions of others, please try to engage with the (justifiable) criticism of your own words, within this debate. Discourse is possible if we listen to one another, and not just try to score points.
he only really appeals to affluent middle class liberals,
You may be projecting rather a lot? He doesn't need to "appeal", he needs to be an effective leader and politician.
You may be projecting rather a lot? He doesn’t need to “appeal”, he needs to be an effective leader and politician.
I'm 'projecting' nothing. Merely talking about my own experience. As for being an effective leader; doesn't that mean he needs to get all members of his own party on the same page? When a significant number actively rebel against his direct orders, that doesn't strike me as great leadership.
Doctor; heal thyself.
Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. Now; did you actually have anything to say?
I'm more than happy to discuss things. What do you want to talk about?
Bike products that you first thought were crap but turned out to be great?
As for being an effective leader; doesn’t that mean he needs to get all members of his own party on the same page?
How many bosses are universally liked or agreed with by their employees?
His job is to deliver an election win, not keep everyone in his party happy. Which is an impossible task.
I’m more than happy to discuss things. What do you want to talk about?
I know a guy who can source under half price assagai 29x2.5WT 3c maxxgrip exo+ TR; minion DHF 29x2.5 3c maxxgrip Exo TR and 29x2.4WT 3c EXO TR. I'm wondering quickly which to get for my occam, for mainly moorland trails and slippy muddy peaty downhill tails off the moor. I'm rubbish with slippy. What would you recommend? I don't have to buy in pairs,
(genuine question, though I have asked for a pair of the minions to be put on one side.) What do you reckon?
Bike products that you first thought were crap but turned out to be great?
Consumer GPS units. I saw colleagues using such, and though they were very much a lifestyle gimmick. But when my wife and I hired bikes in France last year, it was thanks to the GPS units supplied with the bikes, that we were able to follow a route and not get completely lost. It was an area where biking trails weren't marked on any maps, so the GPs units were essential. Interestingly, Israel is a country at the forefront of GPS technology, and Israeli developed tech is incorporated into most mobile devices these days; it it has GPs technology built in, chances are that some of that will have been developed in Israel. Indeed, Israel's position as one of the leading technological nations on Earth, in terms of innovation, development and implementation, makes it globally very important. There are growing fears in Israel currently, that the country's lurch towards the far-right will discourage foreign investment, and see a possible exodus of young people who will seeks such careers elsewhere, in more stable regions. Which is why it is important for Israel to be supported as a nation, as there are many aspects to its endeavours that are of huge benefit to humanity. If the technological industries of Israel can benefit from a greater pool of minds that can be offered by peace, then that is something we have to work towards. So I fully understand political support for Israel as a nation, I just cannot support any legitimisation of the actions of its regime.
I know a guy who can source under half price assagai 29×2.5WT 3c maxxgrip exo+ TR; minion DHF 29×2.5 3c maxxgrip Exo TR and 29×2.4WT 3c EXO TR. I’m wondering quickly which to get for my occam, for mainly moorland trails and slippy muddy peaty downhill tails off the moor. I’m rubbish with slippy. What would you recommend? I don’t have to buy in pairs,
(genuine question, though I have asked for a pair of the minions to be put on one side.) What do you reckon?
I'm afraid I can't really answer that, as I'm not someone who would ride a bicycle in such conditions. I do sometimes ride my bike in London in good weather; it has Schwalbe 'Marathon' tyres for excellent puncture resistance. I suspect Kier Starmer wouldn't know much about the respective merits of different bicycle tyres either, as it doesn't appear he's much of a cyclist, unlike his predecessor.
Consumer GPS units. I saw colleagues using such, and though they were very much a lifestyle gimmick
uh?
I am not a robot [ ]
How many bosses are universally liked or agreed with by their employees?
He is not a 'boss' in that sense, as he is the elected leader of a political party. He was elected on the basis of a series of promises, most of which he has broken.
His job is to deliver an election win, not keep everyone in his party happy. Which is an impossible task.
His job is to represent his constituents, and to lead a party according to the mandate given him by the party members. The humiliating defiance he suffered from many of his own MPs yesterday, revealed his lack of greatness as a leader. He seems to be alienating more and more of the party's members, and the Labour party membership is now significantly smaller than it was under the previous leader. And if he does win the next election, which still seems fairly likely, it will be because of the public dissatisfaction with the tories, not because Kier Starmer is a great leader. I think this is a fact upon which we can all agree.
Speaking of Kier Starmer and cycling; what do people here make of this?<br /><br /> https://road.cc/content/news/witness-starmer-was-making-u-turn-when-he-hit-cyclist-278313
Kier Starmer and cycling; what do people here make of this
What do I think?
1. That's the Daily Mail vote sorted right there.
2. From the links, visiting his tailors and hit a deliveroo? That was when they were trying to pin posh on him, it was apparently a a dry cleaners/alterations shop called "stich and clean"
3. So yeah, people are going to continue to smear Starmer from whatever angle they can to stop Labour winning, including you on this thread.
3. So yeah, people are going to continue to smear Starmer from whatever angle they can to stop Labour winning, including you on this thread.
Actually, most people here (including me) were very positive towards Starmer at first.
He is the one who has been alienating people since he became leader. No one smeared him. They just listened to him.
School children in Tower Hamlets today demonstrating against their Labour MP's refusal to support a ceasefire in Gaza
https://twitter.com/shabbirlakha/status/1725140770661806214?s=48
Oh dear, she's a former student and tutee. Obviously didn't quite hit the mark.
3. So yeah, people are going to continue to smear Starmer from whatever angle they can to stop Labour winning, including you on this thread.
Smear?
Or maybe just reasonable reaction to a leader that can't stay on the correct side of anything remotely progressive or even pragmatic.
You might forget but we are entitled to vote however we want. And personally, I'm not voting for Conservatism whichever brand Centrists make excuses for.
BTW Starmer has had an easy ride and not suffered 1% of smear comparatively speaking
Right now I’d say his main job is to stop his party capturing defeat from the jaws of victory ,
He needs to improve his leadership, then. Why on earth he chose to pick this fight with his own party is utterly beyond me.
I speak as a member who voted for him.
Why on earth he chose to pick this fight with his own party is utterly beyond me.
Have you been on a desert island for the last 3 years? All he has ever done is pick fights with his party. He's got rid of all the socialists, now he's gunning for the muslims. Pretty soon all that will be left will be a bunch of white middle class lawyers and PR people and their afro-caribbean apologists like Lammy.
Harsh ^^ but true
Actually, most people here (including me) were very positive towards Starmer at first.
Yep, I thought he was a pretty good choice. Had the right sort of ideas, was nice and safe with media after baggage laden and media unsavvy Corbyn and seemed like he could appeal to those that Labour need to vote for them.W
His ideas has all gone/been u-turned and hard to say whether he has done anything to get the polling he does or whether that is all down to the tories themselves as really started happening after Truss and never went back
His ideas has all gone/been u-turned and hard to say whether he has done anything to get the polling he does
Although its changed a bit recently his personal polling as potential PM werent much better than Sunak.
Starmer has made it much harder for voters to be anti-Labour.
Politicians need to have very clear and distinctive policies for voters to either strongly support or strongly oppose.
He's not running in fear of being smeared by the press. These are his true politics. Look at who he surrounds himself with and his major sponsors. He has no interest in a mass membership party, he talks of 'My Labour Party'. Good gob, I shall happily vote to get the Tories out but don't hold your breath hoping for him to deliver, asphyxiation will quickly follow.
Have you been on a desert island for the last 3 years? All he has ever done is pick fights with his party. He’s got rid of all the socialists, now he’s gunning for the muslims
Sure, but there was a perverse logic to his previous fights. This has just given him a load of negative coverage for no discernable benefit.
3. So yeah, people are going to continue to smear Starmer from whatever angle they can to stop Labour winning, including you on this thread.
So you don't want to talk about bicycle tyres then? I'm not sure how you've arrived at the conclusion that I'm trying to 'smear' Starmer, seeing as how I only posted a link to an article, and haven't actually offered any opinion on it. Quite some unfounded allegation, that. I have to ask, why have you resorted to such tactics?
School children in Tower Hamlets today demonstrating against their Labour MP’s refusal to support a ceasefire in Gaza
https://twitter.com/shabbirlakha/status/1725140770661806214?s=48/a >
I'm very surprised she didn't, given her constituency. Quite bewildering.
Starmer has made it much harder for voters to be anti-Labour.
He needs to make it much easier for voters to be pro-Labour
Well, he won't be getting my vote that's for sure. Don't think they have a chance here anyway, despite SNP languishing in the doldrums it's an easy choice over, well, who really knows?
GE is definitely looming now as the news have started broadcasting a decrease in inflation. I also noticed the price of petrol reducing to 153p yesterday. As far as inflation is concerned, there is no real signs that this can be maintained other than temporal effect.
Starmer's problem is that he has started to act like a "PM" by aligning his stance with the "superpower" (only one superpower btw). He is also trying to influence the swing voters (larger pie) who align their views with the "superpower". Starmer must have taken the calculated risk by taking such a stance, and as long as the "damage" to his core is not severe with his team making the right calculation, he is confident of his stance. However, he is taking his chances by trying to "emulate" Blair.
Worst case scenario is a hung parliament but I suspect Labour will be willing to bed LibDem because those that he has alienated will move to LibDem. Therefore, "win win" for Starmer.
The only grace for Tories is to entice the voters with "low" inflation, which in current economy means a lot to voters' purse.
I’m very surprised she didn’t, given her constituency. Quite bewildering.
That would suggest an MP putting constituency before party. There aren't many of those in the Labour Party and virtually none in the Tory party.
Let's not forget Jess P attacked Corbyn over his position on Palestine, there's rather too many Mimis. I suspect she feels embittered by Reeves being favoured (and her sister!).
Can we have a little more explication of an 'adult' view of politics, is it like a gerontocracy?
Go listen to it.
It was well balanced and clear she had considered all sides before making a decision. Exactly what you would want in a politician plus it was clear she had discussed with SKS and others before hand.
Like I said adult politics rather than bickering and point scoring