Clap for the NHS when it is all superficial, but run away and hide when that support needs to become something more, something real and practical.
And I see saint Tony Blair popped his head above the parapet the other day to state that the solution for the NHS is more privatisation.
Tony Blair popped his head above the parapet the other day to state that the solution for the NHS is more privatisation.
The problem with a narcissist like Blair is that they can't accept when they have been proved wrong, they simply just double down.
Whether it is the folly of neocolonial wars or private finance initiatives.
This is the toxic legacy of a right-wing Labour leader taking a Tory policy and running with it:
This is the toxic legacy
The 22/23 budget of the NHS is £180bill, the cost to the NHS this year on ongoing PFI projects will be £2.1bil, or 1.16% of the overall budget.
You can be as hyperbolic about them as you like, but those are the facts. The ongoing costs of these projects are not a massive issue, the only time they're bought up is this sort of pointless point scoring nonsense, and would as likely not be just as much of a drag on the overall NHS budget if the projects had been financed any other way you care to come up with.
the solution for the NHS is more privatisation.
Once again, a reminder that the bits of the NHS that most folks touch most of the time; GP practices, Pharmacies, Opticians and Dentists are mostly privately owned for-profit business.
You can be as hyperbolic about them as you like, but those are the facts.
The "facts" are stated in the Guardian article, read it instead of dismissing it as hyperbole, I don't state any "facts" other that PFI has left the NHS with a toxic legacy.
It is a widely accepted fact which is now accepted by all main political parties, even ffs by the Tories who abandoned all further PFIs in 2018.
If you disagree and believe that PFI was a great idea then that's up to you, but don't blame me for articles in the Guardian and the Independent focusing on the toxic legacy of PFI
More "pointless point scoring nonsense" from the Independent?
And as for your apparent claim of the insignificance cost of PFI:
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/health/20621520.hospital-spending-pfi-debt-medical-supplies/
Nice bit of cringe.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1676991400670273537?t=qIrl8aXgbaJuUenm-lCXCg&s=19
"I'm on the side of economic growth."
Bullshit on every level.
Let's not forget ' economic growth' sounds lovely jubbly but is a synonym for trickle down ie you might get a bit more when we get a lot more and not before.
Once again, a reminder that the bits of the NHS that most folks touch most of the time; GP practices, Pharmacies, Opticians and Dentists are mostly privately owned for-profit business.
Privatised GP Practices where it's incredibly difficult to actually get an appointment to be seen and then takes days after the appointment for the receptionist to send the prescription to the Pharmacy...?
Privatised Dentist practices where it's actually been *impossible* to get an nhs funded dentist appointment in my local area for the last 5 years...? None of the NHS dentists have any space and massive waiting lists.
Are those the "for profit privatised versions of the NHS" you wish to hold up as the epitome of success? I'd hate to see what you think failure is!
No funded school meals?
No water nationalisation?
No funded tertiary education?
Yes, I'll vote Labour as the best option, but my word, I despise this man.
I loved Corbyn's costed, carefully considered, moden, democratic socialist manifestos. I voted for him, because I believe in socialism.
Maybe, just maybe 'the whiff of the sixth form common room' would have been an acceptable price to pay.
Starmer scares me.
We're still living with the effects of Brown and Blair's compromises.
If we'd have stuck the cost of Hospitals built under PPI on a credit card we'd have paid them off by now.
'Things have changed'.
'We have to compromise'.
Bleatings from the weak.
Never forgive, never forget.
Time to fight.
Why does Owen Jones want five more years of Tory rule?
Yes, I’ll vote Labour as the best option, but my word, I despise this man.
Well just my opinion but if it is any consolation although Starmer will almost certainly be the next prime minister I doubt that he will remain PM for very long.
Starmer has been incredibly lucky and most people accept that Labour's current level of support is overwhelmingly down to nothing more than the huge unpopularity of a completely discredited Tory government which has run out of ideas and is frantically trying, unsuccessfully, to reinvent itself.
Once installed in Number 10 Starmer will not be able to count on a Tory government to shore up his support. He has been a remarkably poor leader of the Opposition, often indecisive, slow to react to events, preferring to sit on the fence over many issues, and of course responsible for a multitude of policy U-turns on a multitude of issues.
Whilst these critical failings can and are overlooked in an opposition leader they cannot, and will not, be ignored in the case of the leader of the UK government.
Starmer will as prime minister be as much out of his depth as any Tory PM imo.
Resorting to attacking the Tories won't cut the mustard with voters when Starmer is PM, so I fully expect public support for an incoming Starmer Labour government to very quickly collapse.
This will undoubtedly plunge the party into a crisis, especially if they have a huge parliamentry majority, I can't see Starmer surviving that.
I have absolutely no idea who is likely to replace Starmer, nor am I sure that it will make much if any difference - the top of the parliamentry party appear to be more or less all from the same cloning laboratory.
But I do believe that we are living in interesting and unpredictable times. The old norms of British politics no longer apply.
Nothing is ever ever Corbyn’s fault
The general consensus - for about 5 years, everything was Corbyn's fault.
Why does Owen Jones want five more years of Tory rule?
I'd flip this and say why do people want five more years of right-wing Labour rule?
The distinction shouldn't be Tory or Labour these days but left or right.
Why in the face of what has happened over the last decade we need more right wing ideals to solve right wing problems?
Until Starmer becomes a progressive (never) we aren't getting a future that fixes anything.
<p style="text-align: left;"></p>
I sill believe the country would be better with a Starmer Labour Party than any Tory party. The problem is it won't be really noticeably better, won't put in place any long term progressive solutions and will be ousted at next election as voters will wonder, quite rightly, what the difference was and go back to their Tory voting.
<p style="text-align: left;">Corbyn had lots of faults, the main one being he didn't stand up for himself. He made too many concessions but the lies and false allegations didn't cease so we got the Tories.</p>
Very much agree BillMC - he wasn't defensive enough, and he was in an unwinnable situation.
The bit that grates me so much about Starmer (apart from him being cut and paste Neoliberal/Mandelson puppet) is he's wasting a massive once in a lifetime opportunity to make things so much better.
I mean - in that clip when he says he stands for growth - FFS he could have articulated a better society for everyone or something remotely progressive.
He's destroying hope for many. The pandemic seems to have made these idiots double down on a private sector fuelled agenda.
That's not what I thought would happen happen - given how evidently the state was empowered to fix things.
The pandemic and the relevance of the NHS, frontline staff and food chain to keep us alive has quickly been replaced by business as usual for the asset class - in fact it's better because they're getting all that lovely interest income.
'Banks to do the right thing?'
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1676853395708100609?t=uxQhPBLGjKr4zjt9voIGYw&s=19
Blockquote>The general consensus – for about 5 years, everything was Corbyn’s fault.
Absolutely true, apart from the left wing headbangers on here who hold him up as the answer to everything and blame anybody but Corbyn for Labours failure under his leadership. Now there's your once in a generation opportunity lost. Unfortunately dealing with your own MPs, the press and the electorate are key parts of the role which a leader can't duck.
Absolutely true, apart from the left wing headbangers on here who hold him up as the answer to everything and blame anybody but Corbyn for Labours failure under his leadership.
I think most of us headbangers could see his faults- but unlike Starmer he was in an impossible situation and all the right wing MP headbangers spent all their time being Ian Austin.
Without Brexit he would have walked it. Which is why Starmer loves a good Brexit.
I'd have taken a few Corbyn bumps and faults instead of subservience to a right wing agenda under the brand of Labour in name only.
<p style="text-align: left;">Stumpy you do need to try to articulate lucid arguments based on evidence as ad hominems do not reflect well on your intellectual prowess.</p>
left wing headbangers on here who hold him up as the answer to everything
Why even post nonsense like that? Apart from running out of things to say.
It is clear that there is not a single person on here who thinks that.
and BillMC you need to learn how to enter text so you don't always have the <p style="text... stuff going on all the time.
left wing headbangers on here who hold him up as the answer to everything
Corbyns policies and McDonnells approach were more of an answer than we have seen since but I think we all agree that Corbyn became a liability which was the biggest shame as in his first election attempt he did very well so another person with same policies could have done it
I’d have taken a few Corbyn bumps and faults…
Has there been a single post in this thread from someone who didn’t vote for Labour under Corbyn at both those general elections? Everyone posting here voted for that change. Well apart from Ernie who won’t say.
Yep, struggling with my phone in foreign parts.
Has there been a single post in this thread from someone who didn’t vote for Labour
Well there's an admission of the complete lack of political balance on a political thread!! 😃
Is everyone who claims to cycle along narrow paths in woods a Labour voter?
Has there been a single post in this thread from someone who didn’t vote for Labour under Corbyn at both those general elections? Everyone posting here voted for that change. Well apart from Ernie who won’t say
Did I say there was?
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1677018501037391872?s=20
"though he warned of funding issues due to the state of the economy."
That there is total bullshit.
apart from the left wing headbangers
You need to raise your game Stumpy, you can't post a comment like that without an amusing picture alongside it.
“though he warned of funding issues due to the state of the economy.”
This really is the most brainless strategy I've ever seen from the Labour Party. I get why they want to lower expectations, but cutting yourself off at the knees before you've even got in power is bonkers. Turbo-charged cynicism and pessimism, what a thing to vote for!
Turbo-charged cynicism and pessimism, what a thing to vote for!
It's OK, I'm not going to.
Nor will anyone else who reads this thread, I think.
Job jobbed.
Better hope that pandering to those Red Wallers is enough, eh?
This really is the most brainless strategy I’ve ever seen from the Labour Party. I get why they want to lower expectations, but cutting yourself off at the knees before you’ve even got in power is bonkers. Turbo-charged cynicism and pessimism, what a thing to vote for!
Sigh - useless - private sector funds the state absolute guff.
Point is - how does the private sector every generate any 'growth' without new money circulating the economy, spent by the government.
They live in cuckooland.
Better hope that pandering to those Red Wallers is enough, eh?
I think you don't realise why they are called "red" wall voters Danny. Or at least you might have forgotten.
The term red wall was used to describe areas in which voters traditionally always vote Labour. You use the term as if it describes traditional Tory voters.
But true Labour voters would never vote Tory would they, even for something like Brexit, so they may need to be pandered to as a means to win them back.
I don't know what that would involve though, they now have their Brexit so what ill thought out thing do they want next?
They switched to tory because they had been disenfranchised for decades by both major parties, and was then sold a lie, false promises that "getting brexit done" was going to benefit them, that was the path for investment and the "norther powerhouse".
Going back to the policies of under investment and disenfranchisement isn't pandering to them, it is another rejection that will see more of those communities ebb away from Labour. It is just another tory victory where supposedly left leaning voters are blaming the victims of neoliberalism rather than the architects.
But true Labour voters would never vote Tory would they
So now we have established a new type of voter...... "true Labour voters", which presumably means the existence of also true Tory voters, true LibDem votes, true SNP voters, etc. It is gonna make life complicated for the pollsters.
Yes not unsurprisingly Tory voters vote Tory and Labour voters vote Labour.
The constituencies which the term "red wall" applies to have for many decades voted Labour. As far as I am aware every single one voted Labour in the 2017 general election.
That was not necessarily the case two years later despite all the issues being the same, except for two - in 2017 Labour pledged to respect the Referendum result two years later they were committed to not accepting the result insisting that another referendum would be necessary.
Also two years later the attacks on the Labour leader by Labour MPs had reached unprecedented historical levels - never in the history of the Labour Party have Labour MPs been so publicly disloyal to a Labour leader.
The idea that traditional Labour voters should have maintained their loyalty to Labour under those circumstances is bizarre to say the very least.
At the next general election in a few months time it is all but certain that Labour will win every single "red wall" seat extremely easily - brexit and attacks by Labour MPs on their leader are no longer issues for voters.
It is absurd and ridiculous to characterise these seats as traditional Tory seats.
Equally it would be wrong to see a LP success as an endorsement of Starmer. I'll be holding my nose voting for that duplicitous sack of ordure but obviously it'll be claimed as such.
I think most people understand the next general election will represent a verdict by voters on the behaviour of the Tories, not an endorsement of Starmer.
With Starmer not making the news very often compared to previous Labour leaders I think it is probably fair to say that most people haven't given much thought about what the alternative is.
I don’t know what that would involve though, they now have their Brexit so what ill thought out thing do they want next?
Further nastiness towards minorities and immigrants would do the trick.
After all, it is what they thought they were getting from Brexit.
🤷♂️
^^^^
Actually, scratch that.
I was going to go back in and edit/delete it, but was a minute too late.
Basically, CBA.
Ignore it.
I think most people understand the next general election will represent a verdict by voters on the behaviour of the Tories, not an endorsement of Starmer.
Which wont stop it being claimed as such. We can already see plenty of examples praising the glorious leader.
Plus the next election will likely allow him to pack parliament with a bunch of people chosen for loyalty.
moimoifan
Free MemberI don’t know what that would involve though, they now have their Brexit so what ill thought out thing do they want next?
Further nastiness towards minorities and immigrants would do the trick.
After all, it is what they thought they were getting from Brexit.
So why did the "red wall" constituencies all vote Labour in the 2017 general election then?
If anyone wants to try to understand the disconnect between working class Labour voters and today's Labour Party you could start off by looking at the self-righteous patronising contempt and disdain which so many middle-class politicos clearly feel.
Some people seem to despise the very people that they accuse the Tories of not caring about.
Some people seem to despise the very people that they accuse the Tories of not caring about.
Simple explanation for that. A lot of middle class liberal labour voters simply don't GAS about working class people. They want tory economic policy - because it benefits them - with a nice friendly face on it to assuage their selfish guilt. That's why Corbyn was so offensive to them because he was focused on the poor and working class rather than massaging the faux-progressive sensibilities of pinko liberals.
That’s why Corbyn was so offensive to them because he was focused on the poor and working class rather than massaging the faux-progressive sensibilities of pinko liberals.
He can't have been that offensive to me. I voted for him (the man and the policies) twice.
It seems he must have offended lots of other people, though.
🤷♂️